Those still debating whether SAF can be called in if PAP loses power...

[steffychun]

To clarify the question that everyone is asking:

As a reservist officer, I hold the position of S1 in a NS battalion. Would I follow orders to open fire against fellow Singaporeans? Would I follow orders to assist in overthrowing a democratically elected government? The answer is no. However, I can tell you that many of the people who serve alongside me as reservists would not share this view. They would be too fearful of disobeying orders. They would just look out for their self-interest and try to "cover their ass". They do not even question whether something is right or wrong -- they just assume that if someone in authority gave the order, it must be right.

For instance, I knew of a 3SG who was asked by his RSM to cover up some corrupt dealings. The RSM would issue an order saying that all companies must return their printer toners to his office once they expired, and that if they failed to do so, they would not receive any new toners and would have to find their own way to get by without any ink. There is nothing wrong with this ruling, it is merely what one would call a "one-for-one exchange" policy. In fact, one can justify this by saying that it helps to conserve the environment through recycling, etc.

However, the RSM was collecting these used printer toners and then selling it to his friend who owns a stationery/office supplies company. For each toner, he can collect as much as $30. The 3SG told me that over the course of a year, the RSM collected more than 100 toners, and therefore earned more than $3000 which he pocketed himself. In fact, the RSM even used the money to treat the 3SG to an expensive seafood meal.

The 3SG did not even question the ethics of this. He simply obeyed the RSM's order and even personally assisted to ensure that all company clerks dutifully handed in their used toner cartridges to the RSM. He felt that if he went against this order, he would be punished. In fact, he said that the RSM could give him extra duties or even charge him for insubordination if he didn't comply!!

This is the true state of affairs in the SAF. I was a regular for 4 years. I know how things work on the ground.

Therefore I can tell you that while NOT ALL soldiers/officers would be willing to shoot Singaporeans or participate in a coup, there would definitely be SOME (the majority!!) who would just blindly follow orders. It doesn't matter what their views are (if they even have any).

As for the points raised about logistics of transporting tanks, weapons etc -- that didn't stop the CCP leaders did it?? They managed to mobilise the army to crush the civilian protests in a matter of days. It certainly did not take them a few years to mobilise the troops.

You are bullshit. I know many RSMs, CSMs and even privates who are willing to disobey any order to take up arms. Just because you are a CPT (NS) does not make it know it all.

Can you please migrate to California like Gopalan?

 

[CPT (NS) BRANDON]

You are bullshit. I know many RSMs, CSMs and even privates who are willing to disobey any order to take up arms. Just because you are a CPT (NS) does not make it know it all.

Can you please migrate to California like Gopalan?

I have no doubt that some are willing. But others are not. Many lieutenants, captains and majors will blindly follow orders, much like many CSMs, RSMs and privates.

What I am saying is that more than 50% of soldiers will follow orders because they are too afraid of what might happen to them if they failed to comply. That's all. Is that too difficult for you to understand?

 

[steffychun]

I have no doubt that some are willing. But others are not. Many lieutenants, captains and majors will blindly follow orders, much like many CSMs, RSMs and privates.

What I am saying is that more than 50% of soldiers will follow orders because they are too afraid of what might happen to them if they failed to comply. That's all. Is that too difficult for you to understand?

Do you have data to back that up? Clearly you miss out the new MEs. What a great tactician and pessimist you are.

 

[swampfire]

To clarify the question that everyone is asking:

As a reservist officer, I hold the position of S1 in a NS battalion. Would I follow orders to open fire against fellow Singaporeans? Would I follow orders to assist in overthrowing a democratically elected government? The answer is no. However, I can tell you that many of the people who serve alongside me as reservists would not share this view. They would be too fearful of disobeying orders. They would just look out for their self-interest and try to "cover their ass". They do not even question whether something is right or wrong -- they just assume that if someone in authority gave the order, it must be right.

For instance, I knew of a 3SG who was asked by his RSM to cover up some corrupt dealings. The RSM would issue an order saying that all companies must return their printer toners to his office once they expired, and that if they failed to do so, they would not receive any new toners and would have to find their own way to get by without any ink. There is nothing wrong with this ruling, it is merely what one would call a "one-for-one exchange" policy. In fact, one can justify this by saying that it helps to conserve the environment through recycling, etc.

However, the RSM was collecting these used printer toners and then selling it to his friend who owns a stationery/office supplies company. For each toner, he can collect as much as $30. The 3SG told me that over the course of a year, the RSM collected more than 100 toners, and therefore earned more than $3000 which he pocketed himself. In fact, the RSM even used the money to treat the 3SG to an expensive seafood meal.

The 3SG did not even question the ethics of this. He simply obeyed the RSM's order and even personally assisted to ensure that all company clerks dutifully handed in their used toner cartridges to the RSM. He felt that if he went against this order, he would be punished. In fact, he said that the RSM could give him extra duties or even charge him for insubordination if he didn't comply!!

This is the true state of affairs in the SAF. I was a regular for 4 years. I know how things work on the ground.

Therefore I can tell you that while NOT ALL soldiers/officers would be willing to shoot Singaporeans or participate in a coup, there would definitely be SOME (the majority!!) who would just blindly follow orders. It doesn't matter what their views are (if they even have any).

As for the points raised about logistics of transporting tanks, weapons etc -- that didn't stop the CCP leaders did it?? They managed to mobilise the army to crush the civilian protests in a matter of days. It certainly did not take them a few years to mobilise the troops.

so, from this episode concerning the misappropriation of used printer toners you were able to confidently deduce that the majority of our army personnel are willing to shoot singaporeans? And you are a captain in our army. So, Captain (NS) Stupid (thats you!), it has not crossed your mind that both subjects and subject matter are worlds apart?

i would advise you to stop this bull-shitting and trying to come across as a "knowledgeable" and "analytical" person. you are truly giving officers a bad name. We already know our MG, BG are all hopeless paper generals. Now a half past six junior officer like you is trying to scare and intimidate forumers with laughable and twisted logic. You are not fooling anyone. Just quickly get the fuck out and go to Australia or some Scandinavian country.

 

[eatshitndie]

gurkhas at mount vernon will be activated. in any case similar to what's happening in syria, the gurkhas will be guards of the incumbent regime while saf units may go rogue and join rebels. it will be suicide for regime to rely on the saf for political preservation. unless the saf is 100% professional and well rewarded like a highly paid mercenary force.

 

[paulhong]

our President is a lackey and relative of LKY. no difference lah.

will Tan Jee Say disband the SAF if he were the President?

 

[LeMans2011]

Don't believe a shit of these bravado talk. If anything major happens, most Sinkies will just leave the country.

 

[winnipegjets]

Don't believe a shit of these bravado talk. If anything major happens, most Sinkies will just leave the country.

Where can they go?

 

[winnipegjets]

gurkhas at mount vernon will be activated. in any case similar to what's happening in syria, the gurkhas will be guards of the incumbent regime while saf units may go rogue and join rebels. it will be suicide for regime to rely on the saf for political preservation. unless the saf is 100% professional and well rewarded like a highly paid mercenary force.

The gurkhas are there to protect the Lees ...all the other ministers are sacrificed for the masses to do as they pleased.

 

[LeMans2011]

Where can they go?

To their relatives' houses in Malaysia, Australia.

 

[winnipegjets]

I have no doubt that some are willing. But others are not. Many lieutenants, captains and majors will blindly follow orders, much like many CSMs, RSMs and privates.

What I am saying is that more than 50% of soldiers will follow orders because they are too afraid of what might happen to them if they failed to comply. That's all. Is that too difficult for you to understand?

The rebellion will be ground up ...and they will go for the senior officers as it is a known fact that they are all sycophants and will do the PAP's bidding. After the initial takedown, the tide will be in the favour of the dissenters.

 

[eatshitndie]

The gurkhas are there to protect the Lees ...all the other ministers are sacrificed for the masses to do as they pleased.

gurkhas will only provide superficial security (decoy) to buy time for elites to evacuate. they don't have adequate firepower and holding power to withstand more well armed rogue units of the saf. moreover, many of them have morale issues after living the good life of plenty in sg.

 

[winnipegjets]

gurkhas will only provide superficial security (decoy) to buy time for elites to evacuate. they don't have adequate firepower and holding power to withstand more well armed rogue units of the saf. moreover, many of them have morale issues after living the good life of plenty in sg.

This I agree. One of the swedish subs is to be used by the Lees for that purpose. Question is where can they go?

 

[CPT (NS) BRANDON]

The rebellion will be ground up ...and they will go for the senior officers as it is a known fact that they are all sycophants and will do the PAP's bidding. After the initial takedown, the tide will be in the favour of the dissenters.

LOL, seriously? You are predicting a "ground up rebellion"? You clearly have been watching too much TV. This is Singapore, not Syria. I am willing to bet you my last dollar that there will NEVER be a so-called ground-up rebellion in Singapore. People will never take to the streets and overthrow the government, no matter what happens. You are talking about a Philippines-style People Power uprising, the same type that forced Marcos to step down and go into exile. It will never happen in Singapore during our lifetimes, and the lifetimes of our children.

I know many people on this forum want it to happen. It doesn't make it any more possible.

 

[CPT (NS) BRANDON]

Don't believe a shit of these bravado talk. If anything major happens, most Sinkies will just leave the country.

Precisely, you hit the nail on the head!

You know Singapore and Singaporeans well and you have an accurate feel of the ground.

Singaporeans are pragmatic, outcome-oriented, and self-serving, I don't think anyone can deny that.

As such, when push comes to shove, the response will be one of two:

(1) Refuse to obey the system anymore, say f*ck you to Singapore, and emigrate somewhere else

(2) Suck it up and obey reluctantly in order to cover one's backside

 

[winnipegjets]

LOL, seriously? You are predicting a "ground up rebellion"? You clearly have been watching too much TV. This is Singapore, not Syria. I am willing to bet you my last dollar that there will NEVER be a so-called ground-up rebellion in Singapore. People will never take to the streets and overthrow the government, no matter what happens. You are talking about a Philippines-style People Power uprising, the same type that forced Marcos to step down and go into exile. It will never happen in Singapore during our lifetimes, and the lifetimes of our children.

I know many people on this forum want it to happen. It doesn't make it any more possible.

Just flood the island with more Ah Tiongs, Pinoys and Ah Nehs ...and your ground up rebellion will happen. Our sinkees can lynch as well as the UMNO nuts in Malaysia.

 

[winnipegjets]

You know Singapore and Singaporeans well and you have an accurate feel of the ground.
Singaporeans are pragmatic, outcome-oriented, and self-serving, I don't think anyone can deny that.

When you don't see a decent chance of a better life no matter how hard you try because the government is bringing in millions of foreigners to takeover your rice bowl, your pragmatism dissipates.

As such, when push comes to shove, the response will be one of two:
(1) Refuse to obey the system anymore, say f*ck you to Singapore, and emigrate somewhere else

People who are in this category would have been gone long. Those that remain don't have the means to get out.

(2) Suck it up and obey reluctantly in order to cover one's backside

It is not difficult to lead a bunch of people who are totally had it with the government.

 

[CPT (NS) BRANDON]

Just flood the island with more Ah Tiongs, Pinoys and Ah Nehs ...and your ground up rebellion will happen. Our sinkees can lynch as well as the UMNO nuts in Malaysia.

Haha, no way. If you tell me that foreign immigrants will take to the streets in protest, I would believe you. But if you are telling me that Singaporeans will do, I would never believe you and I will bet you my house that it won't happen.

It doesn't matter what the issue is -- whether they increase the population to 6.9 million, 8.9 million or 89 million. Or whether GST is 7%, 17% or 77%. There will never be mass street protests in Singapore. This is not Syria, or Turkey, or Greece. Some people watch too much TV and they think that what they see overseas can also happen here. I once thought so too, then I realised I was terribly naive.

 

[CPT (NS) BRANDON]

When you don't see a decent chance of a better life no matter how hard you try because the government is bringing in millions of foreigners to takeover your rice bowl, your pragmatism dissipates.

It is not difficult to lead a bunch of people who are totally had it with the government.

OK, I accept that there are people who "totally had it with the government". In fact there are many. Even the government accepts that.

What we are disagreeing about is what these people will DO.

We are in agreement that life in Singapore is becoming intolerable, and we also agree that there are people who aren't willing to put up with it.

You are suggesting that there will be a ground-up rebellion, with people protesting in mass numbers, and I don't mean Gilbert Goh's feeble 4,000-man protest in Hong Lim Park. You clearly mean a real massive protest on the streets like what is happening in Greece or Turkey. With 200,000 or even 500,000 protesters -- such large numbers that there is no chance the police can take action against them.

Well then let me ask you a few questions:

(1) Why, despite all that has happened, are 60.1% of the population still voting for the PAP? Do you honestly think that 60.1% of the population are PAP cronies, henchmen, family members, and elites?

(2) As for the 39.9% who didn't vote for the PAP (including maybe 10-15% who DESPERATELY want the PAP out at all costs, and who would rather vote for a blind dog with herpes than a PAP candidate), when the PAP keeps importing foreigners, have they done nothing so far? You mean they don't know that the PIE is jammed everyday? You mean they don't know that the MRTs are getting more and more crowded? You mean these people actually like to stand in queues at hawker centers and food courts?? Why has there been NO protest whatsoever, thus far? Not even a semblance of a protest? Not even murmurings? Having a small rally at Hong Lim Park is not a protest, especially when the government has designated Hong Lim park as a place for people to talk cock about anything they want!!

 

[eatshitndie]

don't underestimate sinkies. the moment hawker centers and food courts are shut down or taken away, street protests and riots will occur. :*: