Why should WP give way to you? I really hope they contest all constituencies. They may still win only 6 seats but should help the state coffers retain 81 deposits (or like in the Tan Kian Lian case, you really think you can withstand a PAP-WP-NSP fight).
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Goh Meng Seng Challenge Yaw Shin Leong to contest in Tampines
- Thread starter silentisgolden
- Start date
Save your pity for yourself. You are really pathetically politically ignorant here. You have just reinforce the public perception that WP is a party which will just discard those people who have contributed to the party in the past when they are no longer find them "useful". Eric Tan's case is the prime example.
I think ironically, you are the one along with those other WP insects here who should be "managed"!
Goh Meng Seng
finally loser gms revealed why he is so bitter with wp. wp has discarded that piece of shit like some unwanted junk.
good for wp. if gms stay in aljunied then no way can that wp ge team can win against pap. gms damn suay one. see what happened to tkl. get close to gms in the end lose even his presidential election deposit.
I am looking at things at a higher, macro level.
Whether we like it or not, WP is now the "dragon head" of opposition movement. Even if I do not totally agree with WP's management style and the way their members behave (in a way full of hypocrisy), it is aligned with my political vision to "protect" its relevance.
Some may think that my "bickering" and "talking bad" about WP here in SBF is because I want to "bring it down" but on the contrary, I am doing them a favor, "putting money into their pockets". These WP "insects" will have to be "managed", so to speak. If these insects are allowed to get into parliament, I guess their ill logic and incoherence will become perfect target boards for PAP.
People join opposition parties for various reasons; some are really MP wannabes, politician wannabes and some have been "partisan radicalized" and they only develop a very narrow view about partisan politics.
For me, I have bigger picture and the aim is to cut PAP down in size. I may not see PAP being replaced in my lifetime but at the very least, it should be deprived of two third majority.
Thus even though WP is not that perfect opposition platform but admittedly, it has become the biggest opposition party at this moment. However, this growth ironically may become the biggest hindrance to the main aim of depriving PAP the two third majority.
Goh Meng Seng
Whether we like it or not, WP is now the "dragon head" of opposition movement. Even if I do not totally agree with WP's management style and the way their members behave (in a way full of hypocrisy), it is aligned with my political vision to "protect" its relevance.
Some may think that my "bickering" and "talking bad" about WP here in SBF is because I want to "bring it down" but on the contrary, I am doing them a favor, "putting money into their pockets". These WP "insects" will have to be "managed", so to speak. If these insects are allowed to get into parliament, I guess their ill logic and incoherence will become perfect target boards for PAP.
People join opposition parties for various reasons; some are really MP wannabes, politician wannabes and some have been "partisan radicalized" and they only develop a very narrow view about partisan politics.
For me, I have bigger picture and the aim is to cut PAP down in size. I may not see PAP being replaced in my lifetime but at the very least, it should be deprived of two third majority.
Thus even though WP is not that perfect opposition platform but admittedly, it has become the biggest opposition party at this moment. However, this growth ironically may become the biggest hindrance to the main aim of depriving PAP the two third majority.
Goh Meng Seng
loser gms,
dun talk cock. everything u do here is to make all the opposition parties looked bad. pap is not even paying u for this. u r trying too hard to get their notice.
The obesssion probably goes to the extent that non-WP people are seen as WP as well. A shrink is needed to treat the village idiot.
The only incoherence and lack of logic comes from the perpetrator, and no surprise those words were used only after I pointed out the CCK vs MK fallacy so the pot decided that it should jump before the kettle first.
Who thinks to make people are unhappy is to "tell the truth". One can achieve the same by talking rubbish. No one thinks highly of Harbans or Phua Choon Sing, they are not well known sleuths of the truth either.
Who thinks to make people are unhappy is to "tell the truth". One can achieve the same by talking rubbish. No one thinks highly of Harbans or Phua Choon Sing, they are not well known sleuths of the truth either.
I am quite puzzled. You left out one very crucial motivation behind people joining the opposition. These are people 'planted' by you-sure-know-who to report on the opposition and if need be, create anarchy inside the entity.
Even if you armed yourself with appropriate weapons, you are not capable of cutting the PAP. Leave that task to more credible chaps.
Save your pity for yourself. You are really pathetically politically ignorant here. You have just reinforce the public perception that WP is a party which will just discard those people who have contributed to the party in the past when they are no longer find them "useful". Eric Tan's case is the prime example.
I think ironically, you are the one along with those other WP insects here who should be "managed"!
Goh Meng Seng
Eric Tan resigned on his own accord after stating his disappointment at being sidelined in the NCMP affair. He has worked close to a decade and its very sad that he chose to quit. If he had stayed on I'm sure there is a significant role he can play.
The point however is the no individual no matter his contribution over-rides the long term party objectives. I believe you understand, but you simply choose not to submit to this truth.
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Better not speak like that or village idiots take that as a passport to WP affiliation.
Perhaps I fit the description of a bug, but I tried resisting such easily-spotted fallacies the last time and admittedly failed this time.
- Welcoming WP to contest in a previously NSP-contested GRC (Tampines), on the other hand accusing WP of 3-corners
- Drawing the parallel of a possible WP contest in Tampines to the last WP contest in MK, of which no one can see any parallel at all
- Tampines swing is an achievement and Joo Chiat's even higher swing is abnormal
- 3rd rate teams must always give way to first rate, but it won't be applicable to 4th rate candidates like Ken Sun in Whampoa of which NSP insisted WP give way to
- Boasting that WP top team to MK was some concerted joint strategy to send a false signal to fool PAP (which was more like wishful thinking), then later expressing disappointment that it didn't happen
- Opened to the possibility that WP is bye in 2011 and didn't happen, now the same in 2016
- Eric leaving WP because he could not get something which is normal human is an issue, but people leaving NSP when there is nothing they lost is no issue. Furthermore these were already crossovers, which means they would have done more homework before joining their 2nd party than they joined the 1st party, yet the fact they go means something has to be very wrong with them or the party.
- Trying to help WP rid of people who are not even key people in WP or affiliated to WP, when WP's strategies he find irking obviously can't have come from this group. In reality, these people are now here telling him off without fear or favour since they are not with WP, and he is trying to use reverse "strategy" to "superglue" them to WP thus create some self-imagined "weak spot".
From all the above, tell me if any person who made the above points is concerned about WP's fall - or WP's rise?
Mind you, I never even used counterarguments like brocoli or others. I just let people fall on their own sword.
- Welcoming WP to contest in a previously NSP-contested GRC (Tampines), on the other hand accusing WP of 3-corners
- Drawing the parallel of a possible WP contest in Tampines to the last WP contest in MK, of which no one can see any parallel at all
- Tampines swing is an achievement and Joo Chiat's even higher swing is abnormal
- 3rd rate teams must always give way to first rate, but it won't be applicable to 4th rate candidates like Ken Sun in Whampoa of which NSP insisted WP give way to
- Boasting that WP top team to MK was some concerted joint strategy to send a false signal to fool PAP (which was more like wishful thinking), then later expressing disappointment that it didn't happen
- Opened to the possibility that WP is bye in 2011 and didn't happen, now the same in 2016
- Eric leaving WP because he could not get something which is normal human is an issue, but people leaving NSP when there is nothing they lost is no issue. Furthermore these were already crossovers, which means they would have done more homework before joining their 2nd party than they joined the 1st party, yet the fact they go means something has to be very wrong with them or the party.
- Trying to help WP rid of people who are not even key people in WP or affiliated to WP, when WP's strategies he find irking obviously can't have come from this group. In reality, these people are now here telling him off without fear or favour since they are not with WP, and he is trying to use reverse "strategy" to "superglue" them to WP thus create some self-imagined "weak spot".
From all the above, tell me if any person who made the above points is concerned about WP's fall - or WP's rise?
Mind you, I never even used counterarguments like brocoli or others. I just let people fall on their own sword.
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but then they have yet to make a presences in the west and north-west side.
maybe NSP can concentrate on the western side of the island like CCK GRC, Jurong GRC (not easy consider PAP have a strongman in tharman), Pioneer SMC etc where there is no wp presences and start walking the ground?
let's not forget that despite a pap stronghold, CCK GRC and Pioneer SMC can still get near to 40% for NSP and it is one of the highest opposition vote percentage in the west side. it might be even higher if they started to walk the ground early.
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WP MK Team is 3rd rate in relative to other WP team what! I mean we have to be truthful to ourselves in such assessment.
I have said it openly and published in the papers that if WP send its top team, best if it is LTK leading the team to MK, I would gladly concede and give my full support and blessings to them....
As for your speculation of conspiracy, I really have no comment.
Goh Meng Seng
败军之将，何以言勇！
I dont know what to say except bingo! LOL
Frankly none of your arguments hold any water and WP certainly does not need any favours from you. Perspective is right - you are contradicting yourself.
WP or any party for that matter need not work out of your template. Instead of blaming everyone like SDP, you should knuckle down and work towards gaining a seat. The country is big enough.
I can't help but notice that you are starting spot fires. I am not sure what LTK or WP did but it must have upset you that your focus is no longer on PAP.
Lets face it no one is crying over what had occurred with Eric except you. Eric resigned. He was not asked to leave. Did he honestly think that he was going to be rewarded with a seat for loyalty.
WP or any party for that matter need not work out of your template. Instead of blaming everyone like SDP, you should knuckle down and work towards gaining a seat. The country is big enough.
I can't help but notice that you are starting spot fires. I am not sure what LTK or WP did but it must have upset you that your focus is no longer on PAP.
Lets face it no one is crying over what had occurred with Eric except you. Eric resigned. He was not asked to leave. Did he honestly think that he was going to be rewarded with a seat for loyalty.
Goh Meng Seng's issue with WP is an old issue which he repressed in the first few years because he did not want to be seen as attacking his former party.
I suggest GMS go for SMC next time. But please dont plan my Joo Chiat. Surely no more SMC next time LOL
I think down-to-earth answers have already surfaced from down-to-earth forummers. It's sour and I mean real sour, maybe even fermented grapes.
Scro is a deep thinker and perhaps wonder if there was more reasons for the outburst. But though he may deny, deep his his heart he tends to think opposition politicians have to be altruistic given being the default underdog. He feels the discrepancy between odd behaviour and altruism won't add up unless the person is possibly someone's plant. But I must categorily state that stuntmen and compulsive gamblers also risk a lot and gain nothing, and are also not anyone's plants. We must never assume someone in the S'pore opposition cause is automatically altruistic.
For me I won't feel the same way, i.e. the same fruit because I have no ambitions i.e. attachments, would rather admit that I wasn't the most right and move on. I am not very pro-WP, just that I don't think the correct weak attributes of WP was pointed out by the village idiot. I could have left that alone, the chap asked for it when he made me one of the pictures for no rhyme and reason and went personal with me.
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Scroobal,
I think you miss the point totally.
Each party will definitely want to secure their own interests but at what cost? The cost is the Nation's democratic progress and development. To put it bluntly, when a party goes to the extreme and only want to safe guard its own interests and lose sight of the bigger picture of political development, they are no different from PAP which will just change the electoral rules to their advantage.
While we condemn and criticise PAP for doing that, I think it applies as well to opposition parties which only want to be "spoiler" or just "selfish" in trying to deprive other opposition parties of the chance of winning, especially in the situation whereby PAP's dominance is overwhelming right now.
Ramseth has put it in a very frank perspective, the objective of WP in elbowing into MK is just to chope place, without any real intention of putting a serious fight to win. But in doing so, it deprives NSP of the chance of winning. NSP is ready to commit its top team, Team A to fight and try to win MK but WP is only interested in spoiling the chance of NSP and putting up a third rate team in MK.
There are other more alternatives like MP which has all the ingredients to become a good training ground for young candidates. Apparently WP is not really interested in finding the right training for the young candidates but actually making use of them to chope MK, spoiling and chase NSP away.
The reason why I kept MP as a hidden card is precisely because I know how WP works. WP is filled with many selfish individuals who cannot see the bigger picture and the urgency to deprive PAP the two third majority. They are the ones who put pressure and urging for such cannibalizing moves which benefits no one but PAP. They are even itching for 3 corner fights. And all these thinking are based on the dream of "Two Party System" which actually means that destroy all other parties at all cost.
Such mentally is detrimental for the whole opposition movement as well as the Nation's progress in democratic development.
If I have indicated firmly during the negotiation period that NSP is going to MP, most likely these people would scramble to try and fill a team in MP and insisting their right to do so. This is because MP is right at their doorsteps at Aljunied and EC which is more important for their future expansion while MK is really insignificant and immaterial for their future growth. You don't choose a 4 seat GRC instead of 5 for future growth. They decided not to contest MP basically of three reasons. First, they thought nobody would stage a serious claim and contest MP. Secondly, GCT is there and they thought he is very popular. Thirdly, since GCT would most probably retire by next GE (because LKY would make sure he do before LKY retires), they can wait till next GE to stage a real challenge there.
The only real reason why they chose MK is to be the "spoiler" to NSP which under partisan game plan, "nothing wrong" but in terms of the bigger picture, lack of responsible considerations for the Nation's interest of political development.
Well, admittedly NSP at that moment, doesn't have enough resources to play hard ball politics with WP but I have done my best to do a "coastal hook" on WP by keeping MP as the hidden card. From the perspective of "tit for tat", it is a "feeble" attempt to "retaliate" in put up a "block force" at MP to restrict WP's clear claim on MP and growth of its potential wins at MP along with EC by next GE. It is the only viable gamble and strategic move I could make to put a foundation for future bargains and negotiations.
Whether such strategic move is successful or not depends on many factors but at least one of the most important factor has been acquired, the grooming of Nicole Seah through MP who will become a significant player in playing this "block force" operations.
Yes, I do have a soft spot for WP because I was after all from it and I have hinted in a subtle way that they should go to MP so that it would be good for everybody. But no, such good will was totally ignored due to arrogance thus, the plan was carried out eventually. I am after all, the SG of NSP and I have responsibility to make sure that it will have a good foundation to start with. I was even willing to give up Tampines to Tony and Hazel, setting my foot in MP if they agree to the game plan, just to make sure that the block force works perfectly well. This is the worst case scenario but since WP is that "selfish" in safeguarding its own interests, so be it.
Tony and Hazel didn't want to go to Tampines but we still managed to form a MP team in the end. The consolation to NSP is that it managed to perform reasonably well in both Tampines as well as MP, better than the second or third rate WP teams (in relative terms). It is important for the MP team to perform well so that by the next GE, NSP will have more chips to lay claim. If everything else fail, the reasons will be open up for voters scrutiny on whether WP's insistence on contesting in MP and/or Tampines is reasonable and responsible or not.
The PE result is a silver lining for NSP. It actually shows that it is possible to split the votes of hardcore anti-PAP out from the middle ground. It would mean that if NSP is able to convince hardcore anti-PAP voters that what WP is doing would be detrimental to opposition growth, the results of 3 corner fight would be very closely split.
I believe WP leaders understand the implications of NSP MP team and the impact of Nicole's sudden growth in fame. I believe privately, they must be banging chests and wonder why I have sent a MP team at the very last minute even when NSP didn't lay claim to MP during the negotiation meeting. I have even laid the "trap" to get WP to say that it will not contest MP so that it could not go back against its words before I declare my MP team, the hidden card. I know they wanted to play hard ball in MK very badly, so badly that they would just insist that they are not interested in any place else except MK. But privately, I still hope they would change their mind so that I won't have to plant this seed of potential conflicts in MP for the next GE.
I am willing to open up this little secret of mine here just to make a point, you may have the best branding but don't always think that you could possibly elbow your way and bully others just because you have the strength. NSP may not have the same branding effect nor top tier candidates but it could well minimize losses while maximize strategic advantage through careful strategic maneuver.
To close this chapter, I would want to make sure that people don't get the wrong idea here. I am NOT against WP in particular but I am only concerned about the kind of mindset and direction that WP is heading with even its "insect members" harping such arrogant attitudes. I might have laid the seeds of leverage and bargaining for the next GE for NSP but I have no intention to destroy anybody. Soft persuasion will be useless to WP. The only way to get the points across is to make sure there are enough chips for NSP on the table for bargaining. I still hope that there will not be any 3 corner fights between NSP and WP next round.
If you think that after all these things I have done is for my own benefits, you are totally mistaken. I am willing to step down from SG post for a start. There will be other development in the pipeline and this will be announced later. I have done all these with no choice left and it is done with a heavy heart.
Goh Meng Seng
I think you miss the point totally.
Each party will definitely want to secure their own interests but at what cost? The cost is the Nation's democratic progress and development. To put it bluntly, when a party goes to the extreme and only want to safe guard its own interests and lose sight of the bigger picture of political development, they are no different from PAP which will just change the electoral rules to their advantage.
While we condemn and criticise PAP for doing that, I think it applies as well to opposition parties which only want to be "spoiler" or just "selfish" in trying to deprive other opposition parties of the chance of winning, especially in the situation whereby PAP's dominance is overwhelming right now.
Ramseth has put it in a very frank perspective, the objective of WP in elbowing into MK is just to chope place, without any real intention of putting a serious fight to win. But in doing so, it deprives NSP of the chance of winning. NSP is ready to commit its top team, Team A to fight and try to win MK but WP is only interested in spoiling the chance of NSP and putting up a third rate team in MK.
There are other more alternatives like MP which has all the ingredients to become a good training ground for young candidates. Apparently WP is not really interested in finding the right training for the young candidates but actually making use of them to chope MK, spoiling and chase NSP away.
The reason why I kept MP as a hidden card is precisely because I know how WP works. WP is filled with many selfish individuals who cannot see the bigger picture and the urgency to deprive PAP the two third majority. They are the ones who put pressure and urging for such cannibalizing moves which benefits no one but PAP. They are even itching for 3 corner fights. And all these thinking are based on the dream of "Two Party System" which actually means that destroy all other parties at all cost.
Such mentally is detrimental for the whole opposition movement as well as the Nation's progress in democratic development.
If I have indicated firmly during the negotiation period that NSP is going to MP, most likely these people would scramble to try and fill a team in MP and insisting their right to do so. This is because MP is right at their doorsteps at Aljunied and EC which is more important for their future expansion while MK is really insignificant and immaterial for their future growth. You don't choose a 4 seat GRC instead of 5 for future growth. They decided not to contest MP basically of three reasons. First, they thought nobody would stage a serious claim and contest MP. Secondly, GCT is there and they thought he is very popular. Thirdly, since GCT would most probably retire by next GE (because LKY would make sure he do before LKY retires), they can wait till next GE to stage a real challenge there.
The only real reason why they chose MK is to be the "spoiler" to NSP which under partisan game plan, "nothing wrong" but in terms of the bigger picture, lack of responsible considerations for the Nation's interest of political development.
Well, admittedly NSP at that moment, doesn't have enough resources to play hard ball politics with WP but I have done my best to do a "coastal hook" on WP by keeping MP as the hidden card. From the perspective of "tit for tat", it is a "feeble" attempt to "retaliate" in put up a "block force" at MP to restrict WP's clear claim on MP and growth of its potential wins at MP along with EC by next GE. It is the only viable gamble and strategic move I could make to put a foundation for future bargains and negotiations.
Whether such strategic move is successful or not depends on many factors but at least one of the most important factor has been acquired, the grooming of Nicole Seah through MP who will become a significant player in playing this "block force" operations.
Yes, I do have a soft spot for WP because I was after all from it and I have hinted in a subtle way that they should go to MP so that it would be good for everybody. But no, such good will was totally ignored due to arrogance thus, the plan was carried out eventually. I am after all, the SG of NSP and I have responsibility to make sure that it will have a good foundation to start with. I was even willing to give up Tampines to Tony and Hazel, setting my foot in MP if they agree to the game plan, just to make sure that the block force works perfectly well. This is the worst case scenario but since WP is that "selfish" in safeguarding its own interests, so be it.
Tony and Hazel didn't want to go to Tampines but we still managed to form a MP team in the end. The consolation to NSP is that it managed to perform reasonably well in both Tampines as well as MP, better than the second or third rate WP teams (in relative terms). It is important for the MP team to perform well so that by the next GE, NSP will have more chips to lay claim. If everything else fail, the reasons will be open up for voters scrutiny on whether WP's insistence on contesting in MP and/or Tampines is reasonable and responsible or not.
The PE result is a silver lining for NSP. It actually shows that it is possible to split the votes of hardcore anti-PAP out from the middle ground. It would mean that if NSP is able to convince hardcore anti-PAP voters that what WP is doing would be detrimental to opposition growth, the results of 3 corner fight would be very closely split.
I believe WP leaders understand the implications of NSP MP team and the impact of Nicole's sudden growth in fame. I believe privately, they must be banging chests and wonder why I have sent a MP team at the very last minute even when NSP didn't lay claim to MP during the negotiation meeting. I have even laid the "trap" to get WP to say that it will not contest MP so that it could not go back against its words before I declare my MP team, the hidden card. I know they wanted to play hard ball in MK very badly, so badly that they would just insist that they are not interested in any place else except MK. But privately, I still hope they would change their mind so that I won't have to plant this seed of potential conflicts in MP for the next GE.
I am willing to open up this little secret of mine here just to make a point, you may have the best branding but don't always think that you could possibly elbow your way and bully others just because you have the strength. NSP may not have the same branding effect nor top tier candidates but it could well minimize losses while maximize strategic advantage through careful strategic maneuver.
To close this chapter, I would want to make sure that people don't get the wrong idea here. I am NOT against WP in particular but I am only concerned about the kind of mindset and direction that WP is heading with even its "insect members" harping such arrogant attitudes. I might have laid the seeds of leverage and bargaining for the next GE for NSP but I have no intention to destroy anybody. Soft persuasion will be useless to WP. The only way to get the points across is to make sure there are enough chips for NSP on the table for bargaining. I still hope that there will not be any 3 corner fights between NSP and WP next round.
If you think that after all these things I have done is for my own benefits, you are totally mistaken. I am willing to step down from SG post for a start. There will be other development in the pipeline and this will be announced later. I have done all these with no choice left and it is done with a heavy heart.
Goh Meng Seng
If that is not enough, you can hear more:
- Helping a party grow by getting rid of people within, yet state that this party's growth may become a hindrance. Which is which?
- State that WP is bothered by certain ill influence of certain people, yet state that it is one party that unanimously gags members (which commonsensically should include both good and ill influence, so why is there anything to worry since it has to be LTK making the sole decision on anything?)
- Sometimes say WP teams got a certain good result because of the brand name, sometimes say they should have done better because of the brand name, sometimes say the brand name is overrated (which means it doesn't really exist). Really confused here. I mean I am the one confused.
- Sometimes say not involved/don't want to be involved anyone, sometimes say otherwise.
- A first rate team on sweet ground (NSP Tampines) vs a third rate team on sweet ground (WP MK) and the difference? 1.5%. But if NSP first rate team in CCK goes to MK, they will swing 10% more! Now don't tell me that for the sake of winning an argument, someone is going to start saying that Tampines is weak ground or his own team is also third rate. That would be admitting his poor judgment of ground and candidates is the same as the CCK leaders.
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