GMS to leave NSP (as correctly predicted in SBF)

[Perspective]

WP not short of candidates - mirrors what I remember someone saying WP was not ambitious and holding back candidates, hence doing service to PAP etc., but when they field the next best candidates after Aljunied, the same person call them 3rd rate.

I'm still compiling the list of F1 Darnest Things Said. Self-contradictory, incoherent, double-standard forked-tongue stuff.

 

[brocoli]

That's the point. Party's interest above all... even National interest in increasing the chances for more opposition members (including those from other opposition parties) to get into parliament. That's bad practice. I rest my case.

Goh Meng Seng

It was never a question of "personal loyalty"; Nope. If there is any loyalty to start with, its the loyalty to the Nation in supporting a candidate whom I think could fit the job of the President well.... Non-partisan, politically neutral and with moral values to uphold the dignity of the office.

Most people like you are only thinking of how to get rid of Tony Tan or preventing him from getting elected instead, losing sight of what kinds of President do we really want for the Nation. Sad to say, most of the voters who think this way has fallen into the mindset of PAP and making it morally legitimate for PAP to make use of the Elected Presidency as a platform to cripple future non-PAP government.

Goh Meng Seng

shooting himself in the foot ??? lim peh then FARKING rest my case

so whut is more impt???

increasing the chances for more opposition members (including those from other opposition parties) to get into parliament
or
losing sight of what kinds of opposition MP do we really want for the Nation

when you candidates is weak ? then is not about winning....

when oither people candidate is not as strong their own 1st tier candidiates (because they dun spread their forces) BUT IS STILL STRONGER THAN ANY TEAM WITH SEB in it
Then all become ABOUT NSP selfish interest and not about the greater cause of the OPP

GET this into NUMB SKULL, even if WP sent kopitiam unker who only got O levels, he will still get a higher vote count then

TOny and Hazel can only get some votes if they are paired with slighly stronger candidate like Jeanette and NIcole and maybe STeve Chia then ... but this 3 joker choose to play politics rather than choose ah BOCK who can win... no credibility


YOU SPREAD YOUR FORCE FARKING THIN and and you still dare to KPKB about Low not sending himself to MK ??? he won 8 seat ok... if he do what you said then all opp can go home jiak KA GI

you divided force/4tier candidate only get 38.8%, not even 39% in CCK against the NTUC Junior Alex Yam and NTU 2nd class Low Yenling

Denise Phua is quite popular and there is 2 Full minister there in MK,.... CCK only got 1 minister and 2 noob who are even less qualified than Hong Boon and SOma......

@Sebas, why you got a weird twich in your head , when you talk you head will twich uncontrolably ....
also why is it @ the rally, whenever you speak, the mat yoyo will boo you and shout Nicole name ???


your case is weak, i hope you rest on it literally and break your back

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

I hate to be the one to remind you of this but just as the PAP does not owe the opposition a living and screws it at every opportunity. likewise any opposition party does not owe any other opposition party a living and will screw it in a lesser way at every other opportunity. Case in point SDP taking pot shots at the WP parliamentary soccer team and comparing the lack of coverage to that event and an SDP organized soccer event. Mitigating circumstances to make negotiation easier include personal relationships and mutual respect which lessen the impact of that mutual ass screwing. The results are a bonus for all greater democracy and an inspired opposition for Singapore in which you played a part. It might not have transpired in the way you planned or in the manner you sought but overall a plus for Singapore.

The WP did not screw you, brutally put you screwed yourself or your party screwed itself. You got something things right but other things wrong and whether it was due to the structure of the party or your lack of control of the strategic direction, the end results would not have been any better, but yet in other ways the cards did turn out right for the NSP. Your party did not unite around a single strategy not could it unite ard a single message.

a. Who could you have sent to MK ? Would it have been any better than who and what WP sent there. Even if you could have sent someone and persuaded the RP defectors to unite in one direction , your own personal ambition would have dictated TP above all else.

b. The TPL effect and the NS counter balance found its full force in a ground fight in MP. In so much as TPL was a disaster at the ground in order to achieve that result, that degree of media coverage it needed a One on One battle. NSP won that battle and I doubt that anyone one single WP female candidate could have achieved a similar branding or had that same natural sincere ability as NS. Whether by design or by fate NSP did Singaporeans a huge favor by embarrassing EM Goh , and forcing his subsequent resignation.

c. Serendipity and a Serendipitious turn of events positive for all despite the anger and recrimination about who should have been where



Locke

That's the point. Party's interest above all... even National interest in increasing the chances for more opposition members (including those from other opposition parties) to get into parliament. That's bad practice. I rest my case.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Locke,

The simple point made is, WP puts party interests above all. You are just dragging and putting everything else in just to sidetrack the issue.

WP doesn't owe any other opposition parties anything but as a good opposition party, it owes the Nation the responsibility of democratic development.

The matter is just simple as that. Unless WP is ready to prove that it could be as good as PAP which could field all seats with all good grade candidates (well at least 87 YSL, not asking 87 CSM), then it is natural that it will have to work or collaborate with other opposition parties to work towards that aim of democratic development.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[brocoli]

a. Who could you have sent to MK ? Would it have been any better than who and what WP sent there. Even if you could have sent someone and persuaded the RP defectors to unite in one direction , your own personal ambition would have dictated TP above all else.

b. The TPL effect and the NS counter balance found its full force in a ground fight in MP. In so much as TPL was a disaster at the ground in order to achieve that result, that degree of media coverage it needed a One on One battle. NSP won that battle and I doubt that anyone one single WP female candidate could have achieved a similar branding or had that same natural sincere ability as NS. Whether by design or by fate NSP did Singaporeans a huge favor by embarrassing EM Goh , and forcing his subsequent resignation.

c. Serendipity and a Serendipitious turn of events positive for all despite the anger and recrimination about who should have been where
Locke

exactly, NSP could have not gotten a better result than WP in MK and neither would any1 did better than NSP MP team because of Nicole vs Tin effect then..

how ever 5 yr on, people would have eyes to see what they cant see in 2 months...

there is no way in hell Nicole can beat TPL in 1 v 1 fight....


there are still too many old folks in MacPherson... Nicole is only goot for social media.... old folks are still gullible and they see TPL every day and week because she got nothing else to do... since she has no full time job or hold any office appt ...

Nicole got lucky this time around... it wun happen again

for WP sake, I hope they caved out MacPherson to let Tin end Nicole political career in a 1 to 1 fight....

in fact, PAP may need MacPherson's vote bank to win Marine Parade in next GE

those who have a different reading of the ground in MacPherson, I welcome your rebuttal

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

The UK had a dominant two party system for two hundred over years of parliamentary democracy before the Lib Dems was created and that was also to a result of a Labor Split. We could argue till the cows come home whether a two party democracy is good or a four party democracy is bad etc etc but heck anything is BETTER than the One party democracy we have at the moment. If it becomes a two party state then so be it democratic development ha sheen fulfilled , if NSP fights its way and it becomes a three party system then again so be it and democratic development has been fulfilled.

Working together is not a relationship of equals, the NSP is not an equal partner at the opposition table by virtue of its existence. It value as its partner is decided by its strength and its calibre and its ability to perform in another five years and finally its ability to win in a disciplined manner. If you bring crap to the table , the NSP will likewise be treated as crap. I see you cannot answer the direct questions about the NSP 2011 GE direction and strategy



Locke

Locke,

The simple point made is, WP puts party interests above all. You are just dragging and putting everything else in just to sidetrack the issue.

WP doesn't owe any other opposition parties anything but as a good opposition party, it owes the Nation the responsibility of democratic development.

The matter is just simple as that. Unless WP is ready to prove that it could be as good as PAP which could field all seats with all good grade candidates (well at least 87 YSL, not asking 87 CSM), then it is natural that it will have to work or collaborate with other opposition parties to work towards that aim of democratic development.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Anyone who thinks that Singapore now is just like two party system in other places must be dreaming. The power isn't even balanced and WP couldn't even field all seats but yet you are talking as if you have achieved two party system. Sigh.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear GMS

The UK had a dominant two party system for two hundred over years of parliamentary democracy before the Lib Dems was created and that was also to a result of a Labor Split. We could argue till the cows come home whether a two party democracy is good or a four party democracy is bad etc etc but heck anything is BETTER than the One party democracy we have at the moment. If it becomes a two party state then so be it democratic development ha sheen fulfilled , if NSP fights its way and it becomes a three party system then again so be it and democratic development has been fulfilled.

Working together is not a relationship of equals, the NSP is not an equal partner at the opposition table by virtue of its existence. It value as its partner is decided by its strength and its calibre and its ability to perform in another five years and finally its ability to win in a disciplined manner. If you bring crap to the table , the NSP will likewise be treated as crap. I see you cannot answer the direct questions about the NSP 2011 GE direction and strategy



Locke

 

[brocoli]

Locke,

The simple point made is, WP puts party interests above all. You are just dragging and putting everything else in just to sidetrack the issue.

WP doesn't owe any other opposition parties anything but as a good opposition party, it owes the Nation the responsibility of democratic development.

The matter is just simple as that. Unless WP is ready to prove that it could be as good as PAP which could field all seats with all good grade candidates (well at least 87 YSL, not asking 87 CSM), then it is natural that it will have to work or collaborate with other opposition parties to work towards that aim of democratic development.

Goh Meng Seng

The simple point made is, WP's party interests is the nation's interest since only a 2 Party system can stop the PAP system.

if NSP or SDP is in the same situation, I would have said the same thing

The matter is just simple as that. Unless NSP is ready to prove that it could be as good as WP which could field seats with good grade candidates, then it is natural that WP will have to work by itself rather collaborate with 5th rate opposition parties who will just obstruct democratic development.

if other party is in the same league as WP, then what you said is valid. but it is not... we have a nascent 2 party system now... we should nurture it, not go back to pre-GE2011 stone age...

you field more candidates abeit of much lower quality, and could have a chance to be the 2nd party, but your failed stratgies let sinkies down...

so you really should not ask for handout... and you have the rights, just accumulate bad will by goin into 3 corner fight with WP, youi will just slow down the pace of democratic development....by a few decades

if any business need subisdy or colluion to be in business then maybe it should be better off shut down

There are still plenty of seat in the north, central and west and punggol/seng kang should even have more seats next GE...

if you wan to freeride on the hardwork of LTK and CST goot work in the north east, rather than do your own work in the other seats....
then dun blame others for not wanting to collaborate with you since you are the 1 obstructing democratic development.

please stop hiding your narrow petty part interest and personal greivances against WP behind the facade of national interest and democratic development when you yourself bully RP out of CCK, Radin Mas and Pioneer....

can you confidently say your A team can get better result than WP MK team???
can you confidently say your A team is much more qualified than Hong Boon and SOma and Freida????

.... doubt so looking @ their CCK results... rather hong boon get some exp pts and become a Yaw next erection then to let your NSP continue to chop places and cant win forever

every1 has already seen thru you... i try to engage you in a constructive manner but you either recycle your old arguement which are framed in a misleading way, based on shaky assumption or diam diam when you cant rebut

your hypocricsy is of the highest order, sibei nauseating

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

Its a contest at the moment whether we move towards a 2.15 state a 2.5 state or a 3 party state. The long term trends point towards participatory democracy, but not as to the form. No one owes any other opposition party anything to ensure it is 1, .15 to .5 . The question is what you bring to the table. Its a dog eat dog world and if you are nothing but a shrimp then expect to get eaten.


Locke

Anyone who thinks that Singapore now is just like two party system in other places must be dreaming. The power isn't even balanced and WP couldn't even field all seats but yet you are talking as if you have achieved two party system. Sigh.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

WP doesn't owe any other opposition parties anything but as a good opposition party, it owes the Nation the responsibility of democratic development.

You are wrong. WP best serves the interests of the people by becoming as strong as possible, and expanding as quickly as possible. If it did not do so, today Aljunied will still be in PAP hands and Lim Swee Say will not be worrying at night thinking about how he is going to lose GE 2016 to gerald giam's team.

Every other opposition party should in fact adopt the same view. That means that everyone should embrace competition and not adopt the view that parties should mark territory and everything should be equally divided. That's just plain silly.

 

[brocoli]

Anyone who thinks that Singapore now is just like two party system in other places must be dreaming. The power isn't even balanced and WP couldn't even field all seats but yet you are talking as if you have achieved two party system. Sigh.

Goh Meng Seng

we have a better chance of getting there with WP than with NSP or you around ....

you guys should just fark off and stop giving opp politicians a bad name... I cant believe I waste my time this GE to rush down and listen to your rally instead of WP rally....

and stop trying to stop Singapore's baby steps toward a two party system with your personal grievances and petty quarrels with WP members...

please do us a favour and quit politics for goot

 

[brocoli]

You are wrong. WP best serves the interests of the people by becoming as strong as possible, and expanding as quickly as possible. If it did not do so, today Aljunied will still be in PAP hands and Lim Swee Say will not be worrying at night thinking about how he is going to lose GE 2016 to gerald giam's team.

Every other opposition party should in fact adopt the same view. That means that everyone should embrace competition and not adopt the view that parties should mark territory and everything should be equally divided. That's just plain silly.

TFBH seem to have learnt his lesson since voting for TJS....

wheras GMS seem to think that stone age to a true 2 party system can be achieve in a day.... huat a political naive idiot... anything to justify his own action..

we are a lot closer toward a 2 party system than since Barisan self pwd in 60s.... but because he wan to sabo
he say we are not a true 2 party system...so he has the right to sabo by threatening WP with 3 corner fight and say WP has no right to be in 3 corner fight when he is the 1 who is scare he beome politically obsolete... so when he get into 3 corner fight and manage to sucessfully sabo, then he can say we dun have a true 2 party system


he is as bad as that wolf in sheep clothing Tan Jee Say... the farking ingrate who sabo TKL and TCB who both helped him during GE ....

TJS also said TT did not win the PE because of him ..... and that WP should fear his 500k of votes....(25% only nia)

both of you should go form a new party and backstab each other to death, except it will continue give Opp politicians a bad name ...

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Here again, I won't disagree with you too much because WP puts party interests above all.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear GMS

Its a contest at the moment whether we move towards a 2.15 state a 2.5 state or a 3 party state. The long term trends point towards participatory democracy, but not as to the form. No one owes any other opposition party anything to ensure it is 1, .15 to .5 . The question is what you bring to the table. Its a dog eat dog world and if you are nothing but a shrimp then expect to get eaten.


Locke

 

[brocoli]

Here again, I won't disagree with you too much because WP puts party interests above all.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear GMS

Its a contest at the moment whether we move towards a 2.15 state a 2.5 state or a 3 party state. The long term trends point towards participatory democracy, but not as to the form. No one owes any other opposition party anything to ensure it is 1, .15 to .5 . The question is what you bring to the table. Its a dog eat dog world and if you are nothing but a shrimp then expect to get eaten.


Locke

so you dun disagree that you bring nuthing to the table. you are nothing but a shrimp who expect to get eaten in a dog eat dog world.

so all that talk abouit democratic system is just bullshit and you got no balls to fight a 3 corner fight in MK because your team is weak and you can only whine about it now ???

you didn t put party interests above all when you kick RP out of 7 seats ???

but WP put party interests above all when it back out of Bishan and Tampines ... too humji to rebut this pts huh ??

you only know how to do selective rebuttal isit??

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

Firstly you have to argue that a strong two party state is not in the national interest of Singapore, but seeing as there are many examples of parliamentary democracies with strong two party systems, you might find it hard to twist and turn that one around. The interest of the NSP is in a 2.5 system or even a 3 system just as naturally the WP seeks a two party system in the evolution of its challenge to the PAP. Isn't the NSP seeking a political result which is its party interests in that it does not become politically irrelevant ?

Honestly I really do not care whether its 2.5 2.15 or 3, the dynamics of political elections , backstabbing , armchair thinkers like you and me will or will not determine the outcome. I do not see the outcome as assured for the WP , but then you seem insecure and extremely worried at that matter in thinking they outcome to be certain but then demanding that the NSP should not be politically irrelevant without discussing what else the NSP can do or must do to ensure its survival. I do not assume that WP dominance is guaranteed , you assume that the NSP deserves to exists and not be politically irrelevant by its very existence.



Locke

Here again, I won't disagree with you too much because WP puts party interests above all.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Did you argue that two party system is in National interests in view of how the world is changing and moving away from that?

Two party or multi-party system is just a mean to an end. The only important National interest we are talking about as opposition members or even just as a concerned Singaporean over the democratic progress of the Nation is to reduce PAP's majority, not merely putting a few opposition members into parliament. The next aim is reduce PAP's two third majority and that's the National interest of political and democratic development for Singapore.

It would be totally self serving for you to say that two party system is best for Singapore and WP is the only one. WP didn't claim to champion two party system back in 1991 when SDP was the "biggest" opposition party with 3 seats in parliament! Well, it definitely leaves a bad taste on my tongue for such hypocrisy and self serving attitude to be said out loud by WP now.

The truth is, things are dynamic. You may think at this moment it is advantageous to sing the phrases of two party system but what happened to SDP back in the 90s could well happen to WP as well. If that day comes, would WP members continue to talk and chant about two party system when another opposition party won more seats than WP? Would WP members voluntarily resigned and work to dissolve WP when another opposition party becomes the eminent choice to be the second party? Absolutely no because as you and Ramseth have shown, WP puts party interest above all.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear GMS

Firstly you have to argue that a strong two party state is not in the national interest of Singapore, but seeing as there are many examples of parliamentary democracies with strong two party systems, you might find it hard to twist and turn that one around. The interest of the NSP is in a 2.5 system or even a 3 system just as naturally the WP seeks a two party system in the evolution of its challenge to the PAP. Isn't the NSP seeking a political result which is its party interests in that it does not become politically irrelevant ?

Honestly I really do not care whether its 2.5 2.15 or 3, the dynamics of political elections , backstabbing , armchair thinkers like you and me will or will not determine the outcome. I do not see the outcome as assured for the WP , but then you seem insecure and extremely worried at that matter in thinking they outcome to be certain but then demanding that the NSP should not be politically irrelevant without discussing what else the NSP can do or must do to ensure its survival. I do not assume that WP dominance is guaranteed , you assume that the NSP deserves to exists and not be politically irrelevant by its very existence.



Locke

 

[GoldenDragon]

Every other opposition party should in fact adopt the same view. That means that everyone should embrace competition and not adopt the view that parties should mark territory and everything should be equally divided. That's just plain silly.

Opposition unity is a madman's notion.

 

[Perspective]

F1: WP puts party interests first.

Ex-employer of F4: Evidence?

F1: *Flee*

Ex-employer of F4: Congratulations, you are hired (hee hee, can save costs on 3 staff)

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

Now lets not put the cart before the horse. In theory, a two party state is the dominate result of a FPTP and a parliamentary democracy. In practice, I do not assume that its in inevitable and the 2.5 ,2.15 2.3 might just be as realistic a scenario. I did not take WP dominance as a given and a two party state involving the WP as a natural outcome, just that the WP has the initiative but as the SDP has proven , it could all fall apart in four years. I believe that political competition within the opposition will determine the result , but its early days yet to state the results and no one should take the results as inevitable or given.

2/3 is the next target but who will deliver it, who will take the lead is relative to the strengths and weaknesses at the next GE. If NSP remains the NSP , it will get eaten alive at the next round of bargaining and the fact that it exists should not determine its role.




Locke

Did you argue that two party system is in National interests in view of how the world is changing and moving away from that?

Two party or multi-party system is just a mean to an end. The only important National interest we are talking about as opposition members or even just as a concerned Singaporean over the democratic progress of the Nation is to reduce PAP's majority, not merely putting a few opposition members into parliament. The next aim is reduce PAP's two third majority and that's the National interest of political and democratic development for Singapore.

It would be totally self serving for you to say that two party system is best for Singapore and WP is the only one. WP didn't claim to champion two party system back in 1991 when SDP was the "biggest" opposition party with 3 seats in parliament! Well, it definitely leaves a bad taste on my tongue for such hypocrisy and self serving attitude to be said out loud by WP now.

The truth is, things are dynamic. You may think at this moment it is advantageous to sing the phrases of two party system but what happened to SDP back in the 90s could well happen to WP as well. If that day comes, would WP members continue to talk and chant about two party system when another opposition party won more seats than WP? Would WP members voluntarily resigned and work to dissolve WP when another opposition party becomes the eminent choice to be the second party? Absolutely no because as you and Ramseth have shown, WP puts party interest above all.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Perspective]

According to the theory of our forum's most expert political expert, when WP growth index goes up, national interest index go down. There is no such thing as WP growth index goes up and national interest index go up at the same time. When it comes to WP, no such thing because it's WP.

In that case, I should write in to WP to destroy itself so that national interest index can go up. Since NSP has no seat, when PAP takes back all 87 seats, that should mean national interest is fulfilled. So he might as well join PAP to bring down WP to make it happen faster.

But what if NSP won a GRC in 2011 and prepares to field 87 candidates. Ahhh! It will be NSP growth index goes up and national interest index go up at the same time.