GMS to leave NSP (as correctly predicted in SBF)

[lockeliberal]

Dear Perspective,

I believe that he suffer's from a trait common to all opposition politicians in Singapore, An Ego ( not uncommon) and an understandable inability to let go and ride off into the sun set with one's head held high ( Look at LKY meddling past his sell by date . )

Opposition politics gives you very little and demands a lot. But after having seen and felt two GE's , I can understand the call of the crowd, the attraction of campaigning , the adoration of the masses, the cheering faces for those at the very sharp end of the spear, and it can be a rush that can be very hard to put down.

He has given much and lost much for the opposition especially in Tampines and the NSP. I can understand the reluctance to see that "Investment" degrade in value in the face of a resurgent and dominant WP and perhaps for that Investment to be forgotten and consigned to a footnote in Singapore's Political History like PKMS.

For me Opposition politics whether as a helper, researcher , or candidate is something that one should be willing to Invest your life in but get very very little or nothing in return. As it stands Jane remains from the WP CEC an object of admiration for the dedication to the work, the cause and how little she demands in return for her work and dedication. She had her dues her satisfaction but thats something for another day.




Locke

I just brought cookies for the village idiot. The titbits in the comments section - http://sg.news.yahoo.com/nsp’s-goh-meng-seng-to-leave-party.html#

 

[Perspective]

Dear Perspective,

I believe that he suffer's from a trait common to all opposition politicians in Singapore, An Ego ( not uncommon) and an understandable inability to let go and ride off into the sun set with one's head held high ( Look at LKY meddling past his sell by date . )

Opposition politics gives you very little and demands a lot. But after having seen and felt two GE's , I can understand the call of the crowd, the attraction of campaigning , the adoration of the masses, the cheering faces for those at the very sharp end of the spear, and it can be a rush that can be very hard to put down.

He has given much and lost much for the opposition especially in Tampines and the NSP. I can understand the reluctance to see that "Investment" degrade in value in the face of a resurgent and dominant WP and perhaps for that Investment to be forgotten and consigned to a footnote in Singapore's Political History like PKMS.

For me Opposition politics whether as a helper, researcher , or candidate is something that one should be willing to Invest your life in but get very very little or nothing in return. As it stands Jane remains from the WP CEC an object of admiration for the dedication to the work, the cause and how little she demands in return for her work and dedication. She had her dues her satisfaction but thats something for another day.


Locke

Whatever similarities of ego ends when it goes further. You are saying lousy strategies and Ah Q mentalities are associated with LKY? I don't think so. I am not asking people to give up their egos. Nothing in my post said that. There must be a level of sustainance and teamwork. Some people call that compromise. I don't see how you can have teamwork without compromise/consensus. You will fail in everything, in or out of politics. It's like saying you can have free will without choice. Going leaving going leaving is unless you aren't interested in the first place, but maybe it is indeed that people aren't concerned with the overall cause but themselves. Or where they can ride on the cause rather than just ride on themselves, if considering your analogy about politicians ego across the board. Some of the things I said come with a jab but have points.

 

[Perspective]

you are a public figure yet make this kind of comment... really is jin disappointing

One word - childish. Or the second word is - kiddy.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Perhaps Pap should recruit him.

They'd be silly not to try, and foolish if they failed :-) :-)

 

[Conqueror]

Do What You Need To Do

When I read what the insects sing, I really want to laugh until I puke! LOL!

Goh Meng Seng

Don't be disappointed when the old folks don't wanna vote you in to weaken the grip of the fascist party. I don't know whether "I'm sorry to hear that ..." is appropriate. We really do NOT have many men to field and to take the fascist machinery head on.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Perspective,

You can have an ego lousy , strategies and Ah Mentalities in varying proportions. You pointed out correctly in a post somewhere in another thread about the problems the WP will face from growth and from managing ego's. I agree. But lets be practical, politics at some point is about each person using another, sustainment and teamwork happens not only because some people give freely expecting nothing but also because some people give everything and more expecting something. Its for me always a wonder how within this bitching, backstabbing, competing chaos of interests , that at some point some good for Singapore as a whole emerges out of this fucking morass of competition,

I have tried to explain his rather silly actions and words( many of which I disagree with ) ever since GE 2011 in the context of personal events in his life in this year . I have chosen to think positively of his contribution and I will remember his efforts for the cause of the opposition for the WP and for the NSP.

In a smiliar vein though I wish Eric would have chosen a wiser course and Eric would have stayed I can understand the feeling of him feeling let down and that he deserved some small reward after all the years helping to build a party



Locke

Whatever similarities of ego ends when it goes further. You are saying lousy strategies and Ah Q mentalities are associated with LKY? I don't think so. I am not asking people to give up their egos. Nothing in my post said that. There must be a level of sustainance and teamwork. Some people call that compromise. I don't see how you can have teamwork without compromise/consensus. You will fail in everything, in or out of politics. It's like saying you can have free will without choice. Going leaving going leaving is unless you aren't interested in the first place, but maybe it is indeed that people aren't concerned with the overall cause but themselves. Or where they can ride on the cause rather than just ride on themselves, if considering your analogy about politicians ego across the board. Some of the things I said come with a jab but have points.

 

[eatshitndie]

drama queen with multiple wardrobe malfunctions. yesterday it was ufo goh, today it is pms goh, and tomorrow it will be imh goh. please goh away.

 

[scroobal]

I had expected this. I also expect Tony and Hazel to leave. It will also dawn on them that they are mere figure-heads. NSP is a lost cause. Not because they are incompetent but they have other intentions. 2016 is a long away to go. People will forget what happened. Come 2015, new parties will emerge.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

First of all, I have recovered from my puking.

To say that NSP has the "highest turnover" is rather blind trying to talk about truth in seeing. WP has higher turnover than NSP, so to speak. Thus I think insects, though with little brain, should think first before speaking. But most of the time, they try to put up silly comments which in turn make WP the easier target. If you don't have a good logical analytical mind, please don't try to flaunt it around. It may make good laughs but it won't do justice to the organization associated.

Secondly, it seems that even people like Locke is pretty narrow in perspective. Win or lose is just part and parcel of any competition, not to mention politics. However, whether such a win or gain is sustainable is another matter.

People tend to harp about how good the performance of WP or opposition as a whole but they have never stop and think in spite of all the hype, there are still 60% of Singaporeans voting for PAP in general. Apart from that, we now know from PE that there are 35% hardcore PAP supporters as well even though we have went through a hot GE back in May. It would also mean that there are 25% of middle ground voters voting for PAP in spite of HDB, Public Transport, flooding, overcrowding due to FTs etc in GE2011.

In spite of the super heavy weight team WP puts up in Aljunied, one MP, one NCMP, CSM and Pritam, there are still 45% of people voting PAP, which also means that minus that 35% hardcore, there are 10% of middle ground voters still unconvinced of WP's quality team.

All indicators here do not give a rosy picture at all for opposition and there must be something missing somewhere. In fact I am not that optimistic of achieving great wins in the coming GE, especially so with the high possibility of massive 3 corner fights.

3 corner fights aren't really optimistic for WP either. Imagine that you have two MPs and CSM, you only get 54%. If there is a 3 corner fight, even the lesser party gets 5% and lose their deposits (well even DL gets 4%!), WP isn't going to win at all. Now, is WP going to send a teams with similar strength as LTK, Sylvia and CSM add together to fight in those potential 3 corner fights?

Well, if WP is just contented to fight a losing game, so be it. Never mind about not wining more GRCs which are actually good battle ground, as long as it gets "better" results than the other opposition party, nothing matters. Then I would say that's really foolish to start with.

Yes, Locke, that's ultimate ego on WP's side, not on me or other party's side.

Politics is also about an art of negotiation, compromise and getting the best deal out of things, not just going around to try and bully others while in actual fact, doesn't really benefit anyone except the common foe. To disregard other people's interests and existence in playing this game, you will be planting the seeds of massive failures in future.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Perspective]

Dear Perspective,

You can have an ego lousy , strategies and Ah Mentalities in varying proportions. You pointed out correctly in a post somewhere in another thread about the problems the WP will face from growth and from managing ego's. I agree. But lets be practical, politics at some point is about each person using another, sustainment and teamwork happens not only because some people give freely expecting nothing but also because some people give everything and more expecting something. Its for me always a wonder how within this bitching, backstabbing, competing chaos of interests , that at some point some good for Singapore as a whole emerges out of this fucking morass of competition,

I have tried to explain his rather silly actions and words( many of which I disagree with ) ever since GE 2011 in the context of personal events in his life in this year . I have chosen to think positively of his contribution and I will remember his efforts for the cause of the opposition for the WP and for the NSP.

In a smiliar vein though I wish Eric would have chosen a wiser course and Eric would have stayed I can understand the feeling of him feeling let down and that he deserved some small reward after all the years helping to build a party



Locke

I think you are talking about the organisational level vis a vis individuals, I am talking about individual level. So far, the one that drops out or falls out loses.

For me, I never knew won or lost because I never turned back (except maybe some occasional wincing of the neck out of instinct - old friends who need my occasional help).

On the other hand I cannot disagree that ego leads to leadership desires, this is rather absent in any rank below level 3. Any individual who falls out of CEC or candidature level, you end up among the thousands queuing up struggling to stay in touch where WP is concerned. It will be good to have some kind of grassroots hierarachy of command and control and subordinate in training, unfortunately this is absent in WP where the tiny executive tries to spread itself too thin and connects too many arrows starting from themselves to the wide berth of grassroots with the result of corners keep coming off. So you can't "play" much there either.

 

[Perspective]

On another note, I don't know why the F4, which was famous for hide and seek when it came to arguments, is now replaced by the F1, who was ironically F4 nemesis. Good that one person can do the job of 4, but if people have something to say in threads that they were badly trounced, they should go back to those threads and counter the points point by point, rather repeating arguments in new threads when the old threads have sunk. Now I know why people puke - by their own old stinky tactics and old stinky recycled arguments. F1 probably stands for FatOne.

 

[Perspective]

I had expected this. I also expect Tony and Hazel to leave. It will also dawn on them that they are mere figure-heads. NSP is a lost cause. Not because they are incompetent but they have other intentions. 2016 is a long away to go. People will forget what happened. Come 2015, new parties will emerge.

Just curious - may I ask if you find a two party culture ie PAP-WP 60%-40% more viable or one where the opposition pie of 40% is shared between 3 to 4 parties to varying degrees?

 

[Conqueror]

What About Nicole ?

Well, if WP is just contented to fight a losing game, so be it. Never mind about not wining more GRCs which are actually good battle ground, as long as it gets "better" results than the other opposition party, nothing matters. Then I would say that's really foolish to start with.

Yes, Locke, that's ultimate ego on WP's side, not on me or other party's side.

Nicole is charismatic but she is still lacking a certain thing. The old folks are hardcore type. They think they are sama sama with PAP like as if they are from the same alma mater. I have seen one dark and skinny uncle ... fwah ! Like as if he was his good old friend patting on his shoulder. He thought he really cared ! OMG !

The younger generation are going to take the full brunt of LKY's anger when more FTs come here. LKY did it on purpose for revenge.

 

[brocoli]

First of all, I have recovered from my puking.
All indicators here do not give a rosy picture at all for opposition and there must be something missing somewhere. In fact I am not that optimistic of achieving great wins in the coming GE, especially so with the high possibility of massive 3 corner fights.

3 corner fights aren't really optimistic for WP either. Imagine that you have two MPs and CSM, you only get 54%. If there is a 3 corner fight, even the lesser party gets 5% and lose their deposits (well even DL gets 4%!), WP isn't going to win at all. Now, is WP going to send a teams with similar strength as LTK, Sylvia and CSM add together to fight in those potential 3 corner fights?

Well, if WP is just contented to fight a losing game, so be it. Never mind about not wining more GRCs which are actually good battle ground, as long as it gets "better" results than the other opposition party, nothing matters. Then I would say that's really foolish to start with.

Yes, Locke, that's ultimate ego on WP's side, not on me or other party's side.

Politics is also about an art of negotiation, compromise and getting the best deal out of things, not just going around to try and bully others while in actual fact, doesn't really benefit anyone except the common foe. To disregard other people's interests and existence in playing this game, you will be planting the seeds of massive failures in future.

Goh Meng Seng

I agree with you that WP is not strong enough to win in 3 corner fight, if there is 3 corner fight like Punggol East, that is why it is Lee Lilian who should have been NCMP if not for Desmond Lim

What most of the rational people agree is that we should let the best party with the best chance and candidate contest and not let them be drag down by people with dubious intentions and lesser chance.

yet you are the 1 trying to frame it as the situation that WP kick you of MK and you still cant get over it and think that other parties are entitled to the same chance to contest even if they have lesser chance of winning

who is the 1 wan to play spoiler and refuse to negotiate, compromise and getting the best deal out of things???

your talk about disregarding other people's interests and existence in playing this game

this will sound farking convincing if you didn t kick RP out of Radin Mas, Pioneer and CCK

are you in it for your own interests and your own existence in playing this game or are you interested in serving sinkies... ??

you really make me puke .... I try to give you benefit of the doubt and think that you are just not good at expressing youirself ... but you are just a massive Troll

what you say just give me more conviction that 2 Party system is the way to go..... you just convince every1 that Mutli opp parties have never worked in the past and will never work in the future

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I agree with you that WP is not strong enough to win in 3 corner fight, if there is 3 corner fight like Punggol East, that is why it is Lee Lilian who should have been NCMP if not for Desmond Lim

What most of the rational people agree is that we should let the best party with the best chance and candidate contest and not let the, be drag down by people with dubious intention.

yet you are the 1 trying to frame it as the situation that WP kick you of MK and you still cant get over it and think that other parties are entitled to the same chance to contest even if they have lesser chance of winning

WP has no serious intention of winning MK and it is quite obvious right from the start. WP has claimed that it is for its "expansion needs" and by the types of candidates put in MK, it is definitely clear to everyone that this is just an act of "chopeing" place. And WP members don't deny it either.

If WP is fighting to win, at the very least John Yam, Angela and maybe Dr Poh would be sent to MK. But this is not the case and the truth is, even up to now, not many people actually know who stood in MK.

But NSP intended to send one of its best teams there at MK. You can talk until the cow comes home but ultimately the action of commitment will speak louder than anything else. Thus, don't try to kid anyone about "who has better chance of winning". If you are not even determine to send your best team there, what "better chance" are you talking about?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Perspective]

Note that 6 out of 8 NSP constituencies (three-quarters of NSP's contested constituencies) did worse than WP's 3rd rate team in MK and the saga continues. Only 2 did better than this third rate team by around 2%. The top scoring NSP team trailed behind 4 out of 8 (half of) WP constituencies.

In 2006, NSP contested under SDA and only 1 SDA constituency (Jalan Besar) was trailing behind WP's lowest score (Nee Soon).

To say it's WP's brand name is off the point. If all 24 NSP candidates contested as independents, they won't get the score they got in 2011 either. And it is simplistic argument because WP's brand name was propelled exactly because of the kind of candidates they had. If they had just one team that declared being "unemployed" and spoke like Harbans, it will affect the entire slate and Aljunied might not have won.

Hence, if WP MK team of a Poly lecturer, a A-Star scholar-employee and a social welfare entrepreneur is third rate what about a team of whom two are unemployed social activists or another whom four are small time businessmen and salesmen? And the alternative team MK had was plus one more scholar but two consultants of whom anyone can be consultant these days.

It's also odd that Jalan Besar GRC in 2006 which was claimed to be the predecessor of Moulmein Kallang was SDA's/NSP's lowest score in 2006 and people thought NSP could win by just going back to MK.

(On a side note, I observe Jalan Besar/Kallang area, where the most poor are, can be quite hard ground. SDA did worst there in 2006 and WP did worst there in 2011. The theory about the poor tend to stick to the PAP seems to hold.)

 

[Perspective]

More nonsense by the village idiot attempting Joseph Ong style hoodwink fallacies. There is no huge discrepancy between John Yam, Angela, Poh, Soma, Frieda and Hong Boon. Maybe a "Dr" sounds nice, then the chap should join Dr Chee. At the party level, you have only 1 out of 5 CEC members in Nee Soon whereas 2 out of 4 CEC members in MK including the Vice Chair.

 

[Perspective]

this will sound farking convincing if you didn t kick RP out of Radin Mas, Pioneer and CCK

Notice this question remains unanswered. It can be a losing battle when one doesn't have a comprehensive position.

 

[brocoli]

WP has no serious intention of winning MK and it is quite obvious right from the start. WP has claimed that it is for its "expansion needs" and by the types of candidates put in MK, it is definitely clear to everyone that this is just an act of "chopeing" place. And WP members don't deny it either.

If WP is fighting to win, at the very least John Yam, Angela and maybe Dr Poh would be sent to MK. But this is not the case and the truth is, even up to now, not many people actually know who stood in MK.

But NSP intended to send one of its best teams there at MK. You can talk until the cow comes home but ultimately the action of commitment will speak louder than anything else. Thus, don't try to kid anyone about "who has better chance of winning". If you are not even determine to send your best team there, what "better chance" are you talking about?

Goh Meng Seng

unfortunately, action of commitment and the best chance of winning are not correlated. They still have a better chance than Hazel and Tony....given the benefit of hindsight now...

Obviously every1 then think that WP have a better of winning MK then MP, that is why they insist on MK, if they have no intention of winning they would have gone to MP instead.

Looking at your lacklustre work in 10kkj, can I say you have no intention of winning ?

MK team has an A*star Senior Research Officer Master of Science (Biomedical Sciences Research), King’s College London....

Hong Boon may be raw now, but so was glenda and Yaw in 2006.

Hong Boon is a much candidate than NSP's Spencer and Raymond Lim, and interms of qualification, I dun think he lost out to TOny and Hazel @ all, He is just younger

Rahizan is a lao jiao, Soma is poly lecturer, same as Sylvia. it will be more convinceing if you point out exactly why they are third rate...

you cant is because they only appear third rate next to their other stellar WP colleagues, but they are @ least on par with your NSP team...so by implication =>NSP team are third rate next to WP team

@ the very least if WP send rookie for training, there will be dividend 5 yrs later....

whereas with orther parties, peple who quit less than 6 months after elecltion show the depth of their commitment.... 10kkj residents are wise to choose MBT over you

 

[Ramseth]

Unless I'm abroad, I usually live in M-K (old JB) GRC area when in Singapore. SDP contested here 1997. NSP (then in SDA) contested here in 2001 and 2006. All averaged between 25 to 30% range. In 2011, WP is the first to make the breakthrough of above 40%.

NSP did have the intention to keep contesting M-K, that I could see for myself. However, there was no such thing as sending one of their best teams with any winning chance here because there were none until the 11th hour RP defection to NSP.

WP called the bluff and NSP wisely backed off but unwisely come back to gripe over it. However, the old RP new NSP team also scoring above 40% in Marine Parade gave GMS the impression that if that team was sent to M-K, they could have won or at least score higher than WP.

Don't think it's such a simple comparison and equation. In M-K 2011, the Malay vote swing to Rahizan was so heavy that even Yaacob was stunned. Rahizan volunteered to back out of Aljunied and helm WP M-K team of newbies, unlike what GMS thought he was demoted. The reason was Faizal was his good friend and Rahizan believed Aljunied could be won (and it was) with Faizal. Rahizan had also contested Jalan Besar (now M-K) under SDA in 2001.

Now that GMS is totally out of NSP, I'm just setting the record straight and let's move on and forward, not backward.