Chee, SDP and the letters!

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Barisan and the people in it were not owned by anyone. They were the communist and committed to the cause. They were however not card carrying members in order not to jeopardise their gaol.

Any adult or any student from the middle school of that era would have known that. At the time, the press had a lot of independence and they were anti-PAP anyway. There was no propaganda like there is today with the Chua sisters and prostitutes in Toa Payoh.

LKY was a communist sympathizer then. Why didn't he get arrested? Stop being naive to think that OCS was to accomplish only one thing. People normally do something for a number of reasons. In the case of OCS it was to imprison LKYs and PAPs democratic opponents and to catch the communists, many of whom had worked with LKY previously.

If the 154th can twist and turn to dumb down and entire population, then it looks like you have read too much of their nonsense. Stop being a simpleton!

 

[Ramseth]

I don't think most of the Cold Store people are real communists. Notice that Chinese in Malaya and Singapore were all capitalists and knew nuts about communism until after PRC won mainland China. They had to be pro-communists because their ultimate objective is to be pro-China and keep ties with China. (Had mainland China been won by ROC, they'd be pro-nationalists.) But that's something the British, Malays and Americans wouldn't allow. LKY happened to be on the right side of the balance of powers then. PRC could influence the outcomes in neighbouring Korea and Vietnam but couldn't really do anything much for supporters beyond that circle.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Of course not all were communists. But people like locke, the PAP supporters and their apologists, want you to believe that ALL were communists. His only premise is that the CPM was alledgedly wiped out by OCS. Of course to think that non-communists were also hauled in is beyond his ability for logical thought.

Everywhere you go the PAPies and their dogs are always the same. Always hiding the truth. Hiding from the truth. Always relying on spurious arguments. Always having nothing of substance to show.

Everywhere you meet such people, you should engage them to allow them to show their shallow selves and if need be, their intellectual dishonesty to all.

 

[scroobal]

Actually the British, the Tungku, the Malaysians, the English educated asians in Singapore particularly the civil servants wanted LKY to be arrested and it was very close. Even the Pernakan community had no time for him. His support came from the middle school, the Hakka clan and of course the communist.

Unfortunately the British found Marshall too soft and incapable of government and the progressive party of Arthur Lim's father too English even for their liking.

Then they realised they were dealing with the ultimate opportunist and power hungry individual and the deal was done. Old man delivered a compromised but acceptable package to the British, he delivered the hardcore communists to Tungku and kept the softcore, bookish type in Singapore detention centre. Not many people are aware that he picked who he could banish to Malaysia. He even sent one of his founding members and part of his PAP basement gang to Tungku.

After 51 years, I am sure you realise that this man until last year had no religion, no ideology and certainly no dogma. He did not train his eldest and second son in Malay,Mandarin, Russian etc for nothing. If the communist had come across under the domino theory, he had a fully trained son that can swing over to the Russian or the Mao's China depending on the deal that could be struck.

LKY was a communist sympathizer then. Why didn't he get arrested?

 

[scroobal]

What is wrong with the IRA? They were fighting for independence and the right to determine their future as a nation. There were no profit motives involved. It was a dedicated bunch like Lim Hock Siew and company.

I getting the impression that you are not at all familiar with the subject in the first place and therefore unable to understand the dynamics.

These are very capable and honorable men but misguided in terms of ideology which on hindsight turned to be unsustainable. They were not cheats, thugs or criminals. They were however danger to the state.

.

To compare people like Chia Thye Poh, Poh Su Kai and Lim Hock Siew with the IRA is not just wholly inappropriate an insulting, it's also downright dishonest.

 

[scroobal]

Who in your opinion is the real communist.

I don't think most of the Cold Store people are real communists. Notice that Chinese in Malaya and Singapore were all capitalists and knew nuts about communism until after PRC won mainland China. They had to be pro-communists because their ultimate objective is to be pro-China and keep ties with China. (Had mainland China been won by ROC, they'd be pro-nationalists.) But that's something the British, Malays and Americans wouldn't allow. LKY happened to be on the right side of the balance of powers then. PRC could influence the outcomes in neighbouring Korea and Vietnam but couldn't really do anything much for supporters beyond that circle.

 

[Ramseth]

Who in your opinion is the real communist.

Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Ho Chih Minh, Kim Il-Sung, Fidel Castro and the gang all.

 

[kingrant]

The Barisan faction under Lim Chin Siong & Co. was the Communist united front for the MCP when the latter was fighting in the jungles.

It is well published that the MCP often had difficulties "managing" their open front members and getting them to coordinate their strategy or tactics with the District HQ because of the pressure the British forces were piling on them, with frequent successful raids and of course the new villages.

The Singapore Town Committee was also destroyed and disrupted by the Brits rather early on.

So the Open Front often tend to have legs and a mind of its own, pursuing policies and acts that deviated from Chin Peng's directives. This was inevitable because 1) messages from the HQ usually took too long to arrive at the open front and 2) the Open front had to react to the very fast political developments taking place at local level. At that time, the MCP was also issuing sometimes contradictory signals- while the militant faction wanted to be more openly disruptive, somehow there was the lai teck factor that held them back.

By 1960 the Malayan emergency was almost over so the military faction has collapsed. So you can say the Open united front that was left became orphaned, and they were more anti-colonial , pro-Malayan union, anti-merger, anti-ISA, and still labelled as Commies because of their past connections. LKY being the opportunist naturally exploited this and played on the fears of Tungku and the Brits to get them via the ISC to do the dirty work for him.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Yellow

The British Paper's you have presented which Wade went through are a reflection of the evidence which was available to the British and Australians . The Communist Plans as stated by Chin Peng " My Side of History " are another important source as well

You are being disingenous by discounting Chin Peng's stated intent by stating that it is not the basis of our discussion. You have used Wade's analysis as the basis for your viewpoint, I have argued that well that the British and Australian view based on what they knew. But for the historical record the CPM's view was as follows.

1959 Sado Meeting.

" Finally We came to the realisation that the only option open to us was to phase out our armed struugle programme and revert via our underground to a Clandestine Political Campaign. We envisaged a lengthy period of political preperation perhaps as long as a decade . Thereafter if the climate proved suitable we might take up arms again. "

Chin Peng ' My Side of History Pg 407

" I cannot with any degree of accuracy place a figures on the number of people we controlled among the Singapore voting public in 1959. But I can certainly say that most of the island's workers SYMPATHIZED with the left wing trade unions and MEMBERS of these unions well appreciated they were under the CONTROL of the CPM. "

Ching Peng idid pg 409

1961 Resumption of Armed Struggle because of CPC support.

" Ah Hai in Sadao thought it was and loss no time in signalling back his willingness to lead a reignited armed revolt, Musa was highly enthuiastic about the idea Siao Chign Supportive ... I fell in line"

Pg 433

"With our new programme and access to funds (CPC) we launched our first recruitment drive in mid 1961, by 1964 our force had grown to around 800 "

Pg 435. Note all based primarily in Thailand.

" Our deliberations with ECY two years earlier had correctly forecasted the event but had failed to visualize putting in place effective counter measures. Operation Cold Store Shattered our network throughout the island > '

Pg 439.

" We never controlled the Barisan Socialis, we certainly influenced them but neither Dr LSH , Jame and Dominic Puthecary, the Party Chief had ever been CPM members. Nor had we been able to control them . Unquestionably we tried as we did with many other aspiring politicians >"

Pg 438

In the interest of fairness I have also included Chin Peng's comments which weaken my view of things.


Locke

 

[scroobal]

I meant in Singapore.

Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Ho Chih Minh, Kim Il-Sung, Fidel Castro and the gang all.

 

[scroobal]

I think Chin Peng was circumspect when he made the comments about they not being in a position to control their chaps in Singapore.

The authorities on both sides of the causeway have also been coy about a number of things and the need to protect informants.

Though the emergency ended after 12 years, movements of of weapons continued. The dream of re-igniting the revolution was not dead until the 80s.

It should be noted was particularly Singapore was concerned. During the Canberra debriefings, Singapore rep clearly was not interested in pursing the matter and those present came to conclusion that a deal was struck. Unlike the Malaysian politicians, Singapore government arose from the pro-commuunist front and had much stronger links than the Malaysians.

In 1963, after Ops Cold Store and after the merger, the Singapore Special Branch records were never handed to the Malaysians. The Malaysians were perturbed.

Even till today, the birth of Communism occurred not in Malaysia but in a small room in Nassim Hill. The ceremony was held in JB forest and it was attended by none other than Ho Chi Minh. When Chin Peng took over as the chief, it was in Queens St that he was chosen. His predecessor was also based in Singapore. The only reason that it conducted military operation in Malaysia was for the jungle cover.

There are a number of Singapore establishment families that had links to communists mainly due to their idealist offsprings. Malaysians involved came usually from JB and the indoctrination took place in Singapore. Some pockets involved those from Ipoh.

In essence, CPM home and main operating base was always Singapore.

It should be noted that CPM in his book took great pains not to mention Singapore or anything associated with Singapore. The fact that 6 of the University of Singapore students expelled during Wah Piow's time and who ended up in his radio broadcasting base station in China is not mentioned. For god sake, they were staying in the same lodging as him and having their meals with him are not mentioned.

The Barisan faction under Lim Chin Siong & Co. was the Communist united front for the MCP when the latter was fighting in the jungles.

It is well published that the MCP often had difficulties "managing" their open front members and getting them to coordinate their strategy or tactics with the District HQ because of the pressure the British forces were piling on them, with frequent successful raids and of course the new villages.

The Singapore Town Committee was also destroyed and disrupted by the Brits rather early on.

So the Open Front often tend to have legs and a mind of its own, pursuing policies and acts that deviated from Chin Peng's directives. This was inevitable because 1) messages from the HQ usually took too long to arrive at the open front and 2) the Open front had to react to the very fast political developments taking place at local level. At that time, the MCP was also issuing sometimes contradictory signals- while the militant faction wanted to be more openly disruptive, somehow there was the lai teck factor that held them back.

By 1960 the Malayan emergency was almost over so the military faction has collapsed. So you can say the Open united front that was left became orphaned, and they were more anti-colonial , pro-Malayan union, anti-merger, anti-ISA, and still labelled as Commies because of their past connections. LKY being the opportunist naturally exploited this and played on the fears of Tungku and the Brits to get them via the ISC to do the dirty work for him.

 

[kingrant]

You certainly have a very insider perspective cloak and dagger stuff - a la ISD! that's why I have always enjoyed your revelations. Little wonder yr critics and enemies are dying to expose and uncloak you.

Are you LKY? I mean the real one, not a mini, as some charged.

I think Chin Peng was circumspect when he made the comments about they not being in a position to control their chaps in Singapore.

The authorities on both sides of the causeway have also been coy about a number of things and the need to protect informants.

Though the emergency ended after 12 years, movements of of weapons continued. The dream of re-igniting the revolution was not dead until the 80s.

It should be noted was particularly Singapore was concerned. During the Canberra debriefings, Singapore rep clearly was not interested in pursing the matter and those present came to conclusion that a deal was struck. Unlike the Malaysian politicians, Singapore government arose from the pro-commuunist front and had much stronger links than the Malaysians.

In 1963, after Ops Cold Store and after the merger, the Singapore Special Branch records were never handed to the Malaysians. The Malaysians were perturbed.

Even till today, the birth of Communism occurred not in Malaysia but in a small room in Nassim Hill. The ceremony was held in JB forest and it was attended by none other than Ho Chi Minh. When Chin Peng took over as the chief, it was in Queens St that he was chosen. His predecessor was also based in Singapore. The only reason that it conducted military operation in Malaysia was for the jungle cover.

There are a number of Singapore establishment families that had links to communists mainly due to their idealist offsprings. Malaysians involved came usually from JB and the indoctrination took place in Singapore. Some pockets involved those from Ipoh.

In essence, CPM home and main operating base was always Singapore.

It should be noted that CPM in his book took great pains not to mention Singapore or anything associated with Singapore. The fact that 6 of the University of Singapore students expelled during Wah Piow's time and who ended up in his radio broadcasting base station in China is not mentioned. For god sake, they were staying in the same lodging as him and having their meals with him are not mentioned.

 

[scroobal]

I sincerely hope that someone does reveal the actual history. Eu Chooi Yip before he died was prepared but his oral history was very much controlled.

The last hope is Justice VK Rajah and the no. 2 in our judiciary. His father was pivotal and knew more than most and I understand the secrets were passed on.

You certainly have a very insider perspective cloak and dagger stuff - a la ISD! that's why I have always enjoyed your revelations. Little wonder yr critics and enemies are dying to expose and uncloak you.

Are you LKY? I mean the real one, not a mini, as some charged.

 

[kingrant]

You mean TT Rajah?

The last hope is Justice VK Rajah and the no. 2 in our judiciary. His father was pivotal and knew more than most and I understand the secrets were passed on.

 

[scroobal]

Yes, TT was the dad who passed away in 1996.

You mean TT Rajah?

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

I meant in Singapore.

Ramseth can be a bit thick at times.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Yellow

Thanks for the reading. Some points to note summarized from both Wades article and Chin Peng.

1. Wade's research and view point is based primarily on decrypts and declassified archives from both the FCO and Australia. That in itself is limiting because it was not a true reflection of the state of events as how the Communist perceived and discussed the situation is equally valid.

2. The page sixty summary notes the following points according to Wade. Firstly that Selkirk finally accepted in 1962 that LCS was a Communist based on evidence submitted to the Internal Security Branch. The internal ISD paper reflected the following security viewpoint that a) The communist wanted to take over power in Singapore via the United Front and that b ) It would be done via constitutional means.


3. Selkirk was notably easy going about the possibility of a peaceful take over by the Communist in Singapore. That concern was not shared by both the Malaysians and Australians who were more worried about the possibility of a Pro Communist stronghold on the foot of Malaysia. However that debate panned out eventually is unclear between Selkirk and his bosses in London, but eventually after Brunei he was more agreeable to Cold Store.


4. Wade's statement that the Communist were only interested in a peaceful takeover based on ISC security excerpts limited to Singapore alone, does not take into account the situation in the Malayan Peninsula. It is an artificial division which goes against all security and military history about the defense of Singapore and Malaysia and its indivisible nature.

5. The concerns of the Tunku and LKy about the communist are now justified based on Chin Peng's own historical account of the period 1959 and 1961 Whether that was based on sheer luck, wit, or coincidence is indeterminate but the decision in itself was the correct one.



6. The opponents which LKY suppressed were primarily the UPP which even the British felt had no reason and for which LKY threatened the whole operation. That is however a far cry from the innocents claims by both Wade and those using the article.



7. Every single time a communist takes over peacefully , it is the end of democracy and it becomes a dictatorship.



Locke

 

[kingrant]

Really? What about Dubcek of Czechoslovakia? Lech walesa of poland?

7. Every single time a communist takes over peacefully , it is the end of democracy and it becomes a dictatorship.



Locke

 

[yellowarse]

You are being disingenous by discounting Chin Peng's stated intent by stating that it is not the basis of our discussion. You have used Wade's analysis as the basis for your viewpoint, I have argued that well that the British and Australian view based on what they knew. But for the historical record the CPM's view was as follows.

Thanks for the excerpts.

I'll cut to the chase. You're being disingenuous by introducing a red herring, namely Chin Peng's account, and deliberately conflating communists with leftists and socialists.

The argument is not whether the CPM had a network in Singapore; of course they had. The argument is not whether Cold Store disrupted CPM's network; it probably did, given that there must have been some card-carrying communists and CPM infiltrators netted in the dragnet (as I've mentioned to Scroobal).

The argument is not even what Chin Peng knew or intended, since he hadn't ordered the arrests, but on what grounds/motives it was that the British authorities carried out Cold Store at the prodding of LKY.

The discussion, therefore, is:

1. Were the arrests legitimate?

No. The archives have shown very clearly that the authorities had no evidence the key politicians were linked to the CPM, were under the command of Chin Peng, or had plans for an armed overthrow of the state. Your quoted excerpts stated as much.

That's the central point of my argument. The Brits had no basis for the arrests and they knew they had no basis. There was no provision under the law in which it was an offence to be a communist. It is an offence to be a member of an outlawed society like the CPM, but none of those key politicians arrested were members (even Chin Peng admitted so).

The authorities also had no evidence to support the allegations that those arrested had planned or were planning to engage in violent activities. In fact what the declassified papers show is that the Brits actually had the diametrically opposite opinion: that these leftists were largely bent on acquiring power through peaceful constitutional means.

Which all mean that the 'communist' bogeyman was merely a pretext. Not the real reasons behind Cold Store.

2. If these arrests were not motivated by the 'communist conspiracy' and had no legitimate legal basis, what were the REAL reasons behind Cold Store?

Again, while there may be differing nuanced interpretations of the newly-available information, it was indubitably clear that the real reasons for these arrests can be summed up in 2 words: political opportunism. (Sam calls it 'political thuggery', and I agree, considering the number of lives and families destroyed and dislocated.)

For LKY, the one real threat to his dominance would be wiped out in a single blow.

For the Brits, the vision of Greater Malaya and a compliant (pro-British interests) post-independence state could be guaranteed. Even the Secretary of State of the Colonies saw the failure of Cold Store as the failure of Malaysia.

The Tungku was more ambivalent — fear of a continued insurgency in Malaya as well as to the south balanced by deep distrust of LKY. But in the end Cold Store was deemed the lesser of two evils after a backdoor deal which delivered the really hardline commies to KL in return for peaceful integration into Malaysia. (As we know, LKY proved to be a far greater liability to the integrity of the merged entity than the Malaysians could tolerate, and had to be ousted.)

In other words, WIN-WIN-WIN for all 3 sides.

 

[yellowarse]

What is wrong with the IRA? They were fighting for independence and the right to determine their future as a nation. There were no profit motives involved. It was a dedicated bunch like Lim Hock Siew and company.

I detect a straw man here: twist my position slightly and attack it.

I didn't say that there was anything wrong with the IRA. I didn't say they did whatever they did for profit, or simply because they were thugs and opportunists. And I certainly didn't question their dedication. (These attributes might apply to old fart, but not to the IRA or even the CPM.)

But I made it clear that comparing Lim Hock Siew & Co to the IRA is dishonest and calculated to mislead. Because while the IRA is an armed militia group which had no compunction achieving independence through violence and terrorism, those arrested under Cold Store were intent on achieving power through peaceful constitutional means, of which the Brits well cognizant of. The question of violence being central to the discussion at hand: What was the basis for the Cold Store arrests, and were the arrests legitimate?

(Of course the use of violence by an oppressed group suffering from prior violence is a grey area: if the Jews had taken up arms against the Holocaust and the Third Reich, most would not have grudged them their choice to use violence to eradicate violence. Ghandi would disagree, though.)

The Dalai Lama is fighting determinedly for Tibetan autonomy; he's called himself a Marxist monk; but he has also denounced violence and is a fan of Ghandian ahimsa ('non-violence'). Do you compare the Dalai to the IRA?