Does anyone know how ISD agents work?

GoldenDragon said:

Cell format? Goodness me, GMS, ISD is not that backward even though they screw up quite often.

Btw, I was the person who suggested reading books on secret services.

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Cell format is not backward at all. Even up till now, some cults are using it.

You will be surprised at the complexity of the cell format used. Spying on the spies are pretty common but the spies don't even know who are the spies they are spying.

Goh Meng Seng

Goh Meng Seng said:

Cell format is not backward at all. Even up till now, some cults are using it.

You will be surprised at the complexity of the cell format used. Spying on the spies are pretty common but the spies don't even know who are the spies they are spying.

Goh Meng Seng

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NOTHING in that organisation surprises me. Cults and an intel entity? I rest my case.

GoldenDragon said:

You have succinctly summarised that entity.

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Allow me expand a little with a caveat here, just because they look mild mannered and scholarly doesn't mean some of them can't kick ass. The best and most effective operatives in the world are those who doesn't look like some bad ass super spy but nondescript man in the street types. Those who tell you they are from so and so are the bullshit type, the most cmi fella I knew of kept telling people what he does for a living, fucking idiot

wikiphile said:

Allow me expand a little with a caveat here, just because they look mild mannered and scholarly doesn't mean some of them can't kick ass. The best and most effective operatives in the world are those who doesn't look like some bad ass super spy but nondescript man in the street types. Those who tell you they are from so and so are the bullshit type, the most cmi fella I knew of kept telling people what he does for a living, fucking idiot

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Agree. Once a chap tells you he is from such and such an intel set-up, he/she is probably a clerk or typist. A real operative will never disclose his ID coz his life is at stake. Even if not at stake, he stands to spend time incarcerated for espionage activities. Torture part of the menu and rehab process.

Internal intel operatives are very safe. MIWs will protect them. It works both ways, eh? Coz they also help the MIWs.

The genesis for SID is very poor unlike ISD which had continuity well before the war. External security was undertaken by the British and locals were not involved. The legendary chief of MI6 Maurice Oldfield known affectionately as "C" was at one time based in Singapore and the first MI6 /CIA relationship first blossomed here and not in the West.

Then as part of the Federation, the Malaysians ran the show until 1965. From 1965 till the 80s, it was a hotchpotch of SAF men, retired Police Officers and a bunch of analysts. They also had the ignominy of having a British double agent in their senior ranks which upset and embarrassed the old man. So you good Bob Theseira and company running the show but more on Police style. Nathan was part of this as well.

Then Eddie, former Head of Civil Service and now Chairman of PSC as a young President scholar started to rise up the ranks and moulded it. Not in the British or American model but a more subdued local model with heavy focus on analytics. Not by choice but by the lack of depth in running an active overseas clandestine operation. There was also heavy reliance on the Americans.

The 3 main countries of concern for Singapore are Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand. So there is presence in these countries. They also operate in countries where these 3 countries have embassies and high commissions and their nationals working there are targets for compromise.

The analysis is mainly on the political leaders - background, inclinations even health etc. the economy, military etc.

Singapore under PAP has evolved into cost efficient culture and SID has also the same ethos. So they now train and use journalist from SPH, CNA etc to work for them. It was only recently that PRC arrested an SPH journalist for spying and jailed him. Journalists with press passes have access to many places so naturally they are used.

We don't seem to be good as the Malaysians seem to be identifying these guys and banning them from entry. Indonesians can't be bothered and Thais are nice.

The main intention behind all these activity is put together a first class profile of their leaders and how they will react in a crisis involving Singapore. Who will blink and who will press the button. It trying to play poker with an advantage.

The closest we came to a crisis with the Malaysians was over the new checkpoint in JB. Army unit were activated. Our Gold reserves with Gurkhas sitting top of lorries laden with it was taken out from Robinson Road and sent to Brunei. Those who was working in Robinson Road would have heard the sirens as it went on for days.

Narong Wongwan said:

So SID is CIA equivalent (more or less).......then where do they train? Got a Langley equivalent? So are most of them trained killers recruited from the special forces?

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You become an interest because of your association with an organisation or a group of people who are of interest to them. There is also who you are in society. If you hold a senior position and seem to associate with dissident groups etc. Let me take an example that is familiar to you and me. The Tangent is an organisation of high interest to our chaps in ISD. They can be defunct but all those associated with it will still be watched and who they associate with. As these guys were OMS, I can guarantee you some of them are actually working for the authorities.

From what you wrote, I would say your apprehension is right.

SneeringTree said:

Thanks for all your inputs. Allow me to clarify with a concrete example.

Let's say someone was indeed approached by ISD/SID in the above scenario- young scholarship holder overseas being asked to "spy" on fellow scholars. Let's assume s/he did a good job doing this and returned to Singapore- surely the ties with ISD/SID will not abruptly break? But yet, for the purposes of the scholarship, s/he has to be assigned back to a "proper" work organization. In the course of 8 years, this person has floated from one Ministry to another, barely staying each for two years; even granted no pay leave for nine months at one point and then resign from civil servace and now has been "jobless" for months. Jobless yet seemingly unconcerned about money. Does this person sound like an informant/spy/agent?

Someone is getting close to me and I smell something completely fishy. I have two other friends who confided they are also recently befriended (and for one wooed) by friendly people whom they know little about. For me, it is the same, I seem to know alot about this person that I got to know recently, but yet I do not know the most basic things about him/her. What gives?

I am not trying to be paranoid but I sense something slowly but surely going amiss.

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I just realised that 3 in this thread have a background in Intelligence.

Let me approach this in another angle. Singapore Intelligence Staff whether they are doing a normal desk job or in deep cover operate in the same manner. I suspect that it has do with ISD role with detaining people for decades. Very similar in effect to people who are PAP members especially cadres tend to be secretive.

The same does not apply to most modern countries including Malaysia and the countries around the region. One can understand those who are in covert post or deep cover but not for others. For instance in Malaysia, Major Police Station have Special Branch staff and the whole town knows who they are. As a result most people know who to pass information to. In Singapore, how do you pass sensitive information. As result, the organisation is detached from society.

When the the Americans were recruiting lawyers to run for local elections in the middle of Robinson Road. The whole legal fraternity knew but not ISD. They all assumed that ISD knew.

wikiphile said:

Allow me expand a little with a caveat here, just because they look mild mannered and scholarly doesn't mean some of them can't kick ass. The best and most effective operatives in the world are those who doesn't look like some bad ass super spy but nondescript man in the street types. Those who tell you they are from so and so are the bullshit type, the most cmi fella I knew of kept telling people what he does for a living, fucking idiot

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scroobal said:

I just realised that 3 in this thread have a background in Intelligence.

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Where's James Bond Ramseth? How come so silent on his supposedly favorite topic?

scroobal said:

You become an interest because of your association with an organisation or a group of people who are of interest to them. ... The Tangent is an organisation of high interest to our chaps in ISD. They can be defunct but all those associated with it will still be watched and who they associate with. As these guys were OMS, I can guarantee you some of them are actually working for the authorities.

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I am hit with a triple whammy then. The Tangent is a part of my past (but I was never the most active), OMS is in my past and now, with my closer ties with another political group, looks like I am doomed. Has my past caught up with my present?

SneeringTree said:

I am hit with a triple whammy then. The Tangent is a part of my past (but I was never the most active), OMS is in my past and now, with my closer ties with another political group, looks like I am doomed. Has my past caught up with my present?

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So you are with Tangent?

Tangent is an interesting group but obviously, due to its inclination, is closely watched.

Goh Meng Seng

scroobal said:

I just realised that 3 in this thread have a background in Intelligence.

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Who are the ones with background in Intelligence? I know Ramseth and you are from Intelligence background but who else? Well, maybe Golden Dragon is one of them as well.

Goh Meng Seng

GoldenDragon said:

NOTHING in that organisation surprises me. Cults and an intel entity? I rest my case.

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Cults are infiltrated but due to its cell format, most of the time the system blocked and protected its leaders.

Goh Meng Seng

Seee3 said:

All along I thought you were from ISD - NSP Cell.

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I am the counter-intelligent agent, if you want to put it that way.

That is why I am in NSP, if you know what I mean.

Goh Meng Seng

GoldenDragon said:

Quite a number of them were ex-SAF chaps. They also talent spot businessmen who have businesses overseas. Training done in-house. No trained killers involved.

It sounds 'kilat' alright but is a weak entity. From the outside, looks and sounds good. In reality, nothing to shout about. Their chaps fear their own shadows. How to achieve things of substance when their IOs were chobolans while in active service?

They could not even detect traitors within their own organisation. It is, in a nutshell, a bloody joke. But where budget is concerned, the sky is the limit.

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top dogs are still pretty much civilians, many of them scholars. some pretty good. under extraterrestrial, it was difficult to recruit low level to mid level workers, and many were needed for the kind of collection technique that became prevalent in et's era. so the saf was used as a recruiting ground, but inductee must sign contract for minimum number of years. at one point so many women joined that it became known as a breeding ground - unofficial precursor to the sdu. for mid level, officers with good engrish were inducted straight from ocs but must clear security background check for months' duration and thus were seconded to chobolan units for the short term. no high flyers and or saf scholars were hired. just unambitious unassuming middleroaders who were not colorful, loud or a sticking sore thumb. civilians occupied the higher offices and they were handpicked from the scholar ranks. of course, journalistic skills were required as there was much writing. you can tell who is from the profession from the style of the writing and the powderful engrish. after et, a rift occurred between saf and civilian side under the nose of holy ghost, and the whole shebang split in two. after all, saf had been footing the payroll bill for so many under its ranks, but they worked for civilian bosses. cherry picking began and both sides ended up doing almost duplicate work in sigint stuff. your tax dollar at work. civilian side however had more experienced analysts, writers, profilers, humint and an international network of clandestine stuff that were unmatched by the saf. every frigging country has similar apparatus so this is no secret. the u.s. have the biggest, most redundant and most duplicative intel agencies in this frigging universe. even ufo aliens are not spared, and they are running scared...a reason why they don't announce themselves when visiting geylang.

eatshitndie said:

top dogs are still pretty much civilians, many of them scholars. some pretty good. under extraterrestrial, it was difficult to recruit low level to mid level workers, and many were needed for the kind of collection technique that became prevalent in et's era. so the saf was used as a recruiting ground, but inductee must sign contract for minimum number of years. at one point so many women joined that it became known as a breeding ground - unofficial precursor to the sdu. for mid level, officers with good engrish were inducted straight from ocs but must clear security background check for months' duration and thus were seconded to chobolan units for the short term. no high flyers and or saf scholars were hired. just unambitious unassuming middleroaders who were not colorful, loud or a sticking sore thumb. civilians occupied the higher offices and they were handpicked from the scholar ranks. of course, journalistic skills were required as there was much writing. you can tell who is from the profession from the style of the writing and the powderful engrish. after et, a rift occurred between saf and civilian side under the nose of holy ghost, and the whole shebang split in two. after all, saf had been footing the payroll bill for so many under its ranks, but they worked for civilian bosses. cherry picking began and both sides ended up doing almost duplicate work in sigint stuff. your tax dollar at work. civilian side however had more experienced analysts, writers, profilers, humint and an international network of clandestine stuff that were unmatched by the saf. every frigging country has similar apparatus so this is no secret. the u.s. have the biggest, most redundant and most duplicative intel agencies in this frigging universe. even ufo aliens are not spared, and they are running scared...a reason why they don't announce themselves when visiting geylang.

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Thats government service for you, internal politics and head of departments trying to score points and claim territory. Sharing is not done very well between uniformed/civilian

Goh Meng Seng said:

Who are the ones with background in Intelligence? I know Ramseth and you are from Intelligence background but who else? Well, maybe Golden Dragon is one of them as well.

Goh Meng Seng

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Once awhile you do get it right. Your hunch on my background is spot on. Congrats.

Likely scroobal has intel background.

Ramseth? Not likely. He knows the macro of intel in S'pore. Not the micro. How I know? Ramseth said we have no agents in our domestic intel agencies. He is 100% wrong and I am 100% right. For certain matters, you need to be in it to know. Reading up and hearing from friends can only 'assist' your knowledge.

Goh Meng Seng said:

Cults are infiltrated but due to its cell format, most of the time the system blocked and protected its leaders.

Goh Meng Seng

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The system hasn't blocked and protected its leaders. I refer to JWs and Moonies in S'pore. The set-up of these 2 entities is no secret. One of its leaders, a superscale officer, migrated more than a decade ago. He led one of the cult groups I mentioned. He wasn't 'blocked' nor 'protected'. He was cruelly exposed. Denied promotion too coz he could not recite the pledge. Got the hint?

I would not worry at all. They are doing their job and updating dossier. Perfectly ok to dabble in politics where they are concerned. Just keep your distance from that chap and be polite. Familiarity will lead to talking too much and you end being an informant without you realising it. Tangent would be top of the list.

SneeringTree said:

I am hit with a triple whammy then. The Tangent is a part of my past (but I was never the most active), OMS is in my past and now, with my closer ties with another political group, looks like I am doomed. Has my past caught up with my present?

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Don't underestimate Ramseth.

He has deliberately hidden the facts of the intel ops to make cover.

Goh Meng Seng

GoldenDragon said:

Once awhile you do get it right. Your hunch on my background is spot on. Congrats.

Likely scroobal has intel background.

Ramseth? Not likely. He knows the macro of intel in S'pore. Not the micro. How I know? Ramseth said we have no agents in our domestic intel agencies. He is 100% wrong and I am 100% right. For certain matters, you need to be in it to know. Reading up and hearing from friends can only 'assist' your knowledge.

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