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AWARE Sex Guide Suspended

DrPanacea

Alfrescian
Loyal
A blogger's site is not an issue for me as long as he posts authentic info. This one does so. You don't have to read the comments of the blogger, at least read the points in the instructors guide in the CSE program.

Better read here.
http://voicethread.com/#q.b468061.i0.k0
If you still agree with it then you must be for it.

The MOE suspended the programs with all external vendors only AFTER TSM and her team blew the whistle. You have a porblem with that?
The MOE had been caught sleeping on the job.

It is all very clear to me. Not even an iota of doubt in their intention. TSM and Josie and her team has done a great service to the people of Singapore. They sacrifice themselves knowing well that they will be ostracised by the people they are against. I am thankful such people do exist. I would do likewise.
Would you do the same for our country?


"Whether I am the expert on TSM's campaign or not is irrelevant here. The point here is you missed the news even as you claimed to have read it."

So please point out what I missed in detail
I'm still waiting.................

"Just doing you a favor. Have a good read here.
http://tampinescourt.blogspot.com/2009/04/has-moe-lost-its-mind.html"

Why are you referencing a blog post?
We were talking about the govt's official position on the matter
You mean the govt operates from Tampines is it?

"If TSM is "ridiculous" as you put it, then why should MOE need to suspend the CSE programme run by the old guard?"

1. They suspended ALL content run by ALL external vendors, not just the AWARE stuff.

2. Because the average Singaporean PAP voter is a conservative ie. don't like homo content or any content that is too sex related. Singaporeans are very hybrid creatures. They can go to Geylang and bang foreign women at 1pm and then protest the sexual content of AWARE's CSE at 2pm. That is very UNIQUELY SINGAPOREAN.

3. Because They need to be seen as taking decisive action now that 1000s of parents have complained

4. Because the MOE doesn't give a shit about AWARE or Homosexuals or Thio Su Mien. Their First Order Mission is to COVER THY OWN BACKSIDE.

Clear enough for you?
 

giggity_shit

Alfrescian
Loyal
A blogger's site is not an issue for me as long as he posts authentic info. This one does so. You don't have to read the comments of the blogger, at least read the points in the instructors guide in the CSE program.

Better read here.
http://voicethread.com/#q.b468061.i0.k0
If you still agree with it then you must be for it.

The MOE suspended the programs with all external vendors only AFTER TSM and her team blew the whistle. You have a porblem with that?
The MOE had been caught sleeping on the job.

It is all very clear to me. Not even an iota of doubt in their intention. TSM and Josie and her team has done a great service to the people of Singapore. They sacrifice themselves knowing well that they will be ostracised by the people they are against. I am thankful such people do exist. I would do likewise.
Would you do the same for our country?

I understand where you are coming from and i respect your right to your opinion. But in the end of the day, does the end justify the means?

In your view, Aware had crossed a line and gone to far in its acceptance of alternative lifestyle. But a sin in response to a sin does not make either right.

Again, you have every right to praise your TSM and Josie, but I am a Singaporean and I feel they have done me no great service. They serve a minority. A voical and powerful minority but a minority no less.
 

bellepepper02

Alfrescian
Loyal
bellepepper02,

"TSM and Co were also very interested in using AWARE to propel their Christian women into parliament. JL kept harping on the need to get 35% women into Parliament. They had some very nefarious plans."

Very interesting! Can you elaborate on that?
Is this your own conclusion (no offence meant) or do you have information about their plans.

Cheers

It's my own conclusion from scrutinising exco's statements, trying to figure out what plans they had for AWARE. They had no specific plans for anything. They couldn't even tell us how they would avoid discriminating against gays (as part of their CEDAW obligation). They hadn't thought through it. Then they spoke of how they wanted to address job issues for women, but again no specific plans. And if these were their aims, why did they dissolve sub-committees? They wanted a whole new breed in charge, not just of exco but in committees doing research and advocacy work. Even their office manager had to come from COOS.

The only definite plan they announced was a mentoring scheme to get women into parliament. They spoke of the need for 35% female representation, and even identified mentors such as Claire Chiang and Chan Heng Chee they would approach. They had obviously thought much about this--unlike other issues they mentioned. After the AWARE EGM vote of no confidence, when they returned to resign, this issue of getting women into parliament was the ONLY thing they mentioned. It was really a weird thing to say because nobody raised this issue during the EGM. It was Josie Lau's last words to AWARE. She didn't mention female employment issues or gay issue.

I've been reading about steeplejacking in US, Australia and NZ--about neopentecostal organisations trying to infiltrate mainstream churches and political organisations. They focus on two aims--pro family concerns (incl. anti-gay issue) and political representation (in govt and in parliament). COOS has connections to these neopentecostal organisations. These articles have also linked steeplejacking in Singapore to racial connections--COOS and other churches involved in this are overwhelmingly Chinese in their appeal and congregation.

AWARE has shot four leaders into parliament as NMPs. It's one sure avenue of launching an NMP into parliament--nobody else from any other women's organization has represented the women's constituency in parliament. It was strange that they suggested only Claire Chiang from the AWARE-linked NMPs (forgetting Jennifer Lee, Braema Mathi and Kanwaljit Soin). She's not only Chinese but her most renowned research work has been on Chinese entrepreneurship. And don't forget her illustrious Chinese family business and cultural connections. Unlike other former AWARE NMPs, I uunderstand she's working with govt organisations now, as is Chan Heng Chee, so they would be a great way to propel women into govt.

AWARE is also represented on ministerial and statutory board committees, and is invited to take part in regional conferences, workshops and meetings. It is involved in forming of public policy.

So with regard to political representation, it's not only enough to get into the ruling party (which they have probably already done), but also to stifle AWARE's offering of non-Christian, anti-patriarchal and non-business-oriented viewpoints and to harness the NGO for their own purposes. AWARE can be an additional conduit for getting into the ruling party. Which is what the mentoring scheme would have done.

Something else that the exco talked about that was significant--that it was not AWARE's job to get into consumer matters and the environment! Both of these are very much issues affecting women. There's even eco-feminism, a branch of feminism dealing with environment issues. But those with business interests can be expected to shut down consumer and environment activism.
 

SIFU

Alfrescian
Loyal
wow.. so many closet gays in this forum supporting AWARE's pro-gay stand..:eek:

scary..:biggrin: and yucky too..
 

eatshitndie

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
and what religious ask you to stop fucking ?

like fucking someone else's son or daughter? oh yeah, bring it on. the church is a fucking cesspool of pedophiles and statutory rapists. no wonder they have to pay billions in damages.
 

bellepepper02

Alfrescian
Loyal
It is all very clear to me. Not even an iota of doubt in their intention. TSM and Josie and her team has done a great service to the people of Singapore. They sacrifice themselves knowing well that they will be ostracised by the people they are against. I am thankful such people do exist. I would do likewise.
Would you do the same for our country?

Yes, telling you to "Shut up and sit down" is very self-sacrificing and also the perfect method of governance.

I hope I never do the same for my country. I wouldn't do anything to make my fellow-citizens ostracize me because that means that I have infringed on their rights and violated their values.
 

bellepepper02

Alfrescian
Loyal
wow.. so many closet gays in this forum supporting AWARE's pro-gay stand..:eek:

scary..:biggrin: and yucky too..

Hahaha! So you're running out of arguments and have to resort to personal attacks?

Anti-discrimination of gays means one is pro-gay? Being pro-gay means one must be a closet gay? I guess people like you can't imagine supporting communities who are not like you and who don't serve your interests.

If gay sexuality scares you, then you better go and have your sexuality checked. What are you afraid of? That it has come too close to home?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I think your lines are crossed. The issue was the conduct of this particular group. They kept silent on the issues and their agenda. TSM revealed the issue when she had little choice when her email surfaced.

The vast majority of Singaporeans have no intention of having such content dessiminated to our kids. In fact I am suspicious if this Josie and co. knew the existence of the instructor's manual until the pressure mounted to substantiate their allegations, many of which remain unaddressed.

If they had been aware of the guide, all it needed was someone to write to the forum page, pointing out extracts from the instructors guide and I can assure you that heads would have rolled. No one did , neither did any parents. When the guide surfaced, things were very much after the fact. I can tell you that the guide even suggested/alluded that heterosexuality (not homosexuality) cannot be explained. Thats appalling by any standard.

After the debacle and watching the minute by minute developments, I suspect the intention was to use AWARE as a vehicle to push thru an NMP as a proxy to bolster or provide a replacement for Li-Anne. AWARE is the most successful entity is garnering the most spots in term of NMPs. That would explain the seemingly surreptitious and subsversive manner that the takeover was undertaken. Of course it was legal, of course it was within the constitution and thats the reason why the old guards re-took by legal means. Member stacking had occurred and the old guards learnt from it and did the the same. What is sauce for goose must be sauce for the gander. The only difference was that they did not hide the agenda or misrepresent themselves. You claiming that it was legal when no one suggested otherwise, suggest a less than intelligent pursuit of non existent disagreement.

At the end of day, the means to an end must be justified. The end in this case was probably not the intention and no part of the intrigue points to that. But the means was certainly deplorable in view of the number of dishonest actions and words that were done, spoken or omitted.

You must be out of touch if you think, the majority of Singaporeans will allow a pro-gay agenda to progress. Fridae was cut at the knees despite they raving and ranting all the way to Thailand. They actually attempted to buy favours from AWARE but were knocked back and did not bother to donate after 1 year.

Anyone who suggest that abortions cause Tsunamis must be stark raving mad. And we certainly don't need TSM to be our moral gatekeeper. We are absolutely fine without her. I do however acknowledge that without this event that instructors' guide would not have surfaced. For that we are thankful.

I have a lot of time for Kakowi and you, as I find both of you being honest, decent on many fronts and good souls. I know dogma can be bitch at times but do apologise if I tend to be over the top which I am more or less infamous for.


A blogger's site is not an issue for me as long as he posts authentic info. This one does so. You don't have to read the comments of the blogger, at least read the points in the instructors guide in the CSE program.

Better read here.
http://voicethread.com/#q.b468061.i0.k0
If you still agree with it then you must be for it.

The MOE suspended the programs with all external vendors only AFTER TSM and her team blew the whistle. You have a porblem with that?
The MOE had been caught sleeping on the job.

It is all very clear to me. Not even an iota of doubt in their intention. TSM and Josie and her team has done a great service to the people of Singapore. They sacrifice themselves knowing well that they will be ostracised by the people they are against. I am thankful such people do exist. I would do likewise.
Would you do the same for our country?
 

SIFU

Alfrescian
Loyal
Hahaha! So you're running out of arguments and have to resort to personal attacks?

Anti-discrimination of gays means one is pro-gay? Being pro-gay means one must be a closet gay? I guess people like you can't imagine supporting communities who are not like you and who don't serve your interests.

If gay sexuality scares you, then you better go and have your sexuality checked. What are you afraid of? That it has come too close to home?

i attack u:confused:

u think too highly of yourself.. u r nothing to me.:cool:

u doubt my sexuality?? u wanna ask your sister (in 20+ please n must be pleasant looking) stay with me 1 night or not huh... dun worry we will just chat the night away..
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
My $0.02 (Not to anyone and certainly not an attack.) :biggrin:

1) Religion – was it / will it be involved?

We have to look at independence, and therefore the conflicts of interest, actual, potential or perceived. The whole thing is about trust.

So we ask questions like:

Did Josie&Co “actually” play the religion card? There are a lot of arguments about this, but I think nobody (except Josie&Co themselves) knows for sure.

Could Josie&Co “potentially" play the religion card? Yes because they officially brought in that feminist mentor to guide them. People can visualise where it could potentially go, in the past or into the future.

Was Josie&Co "perceived" to have played the religion card? This is the tricky part. Josie&Co have the responsibility to avoid circumstances leading to such perceptions. Collectively their backgrounds, the way they come together with that feminist mentor etc became a great burden. If and when someone challenges their integrity, it is their utmost duty to stand up against the accusations, defend their positions and protect their reputations (like someone we all know). Josie&Co did nothing, or simply not enough. Who to blame? You decide.

It is not difficult to understand why they lost the EGM.


2) CSE – Suspended = Major victory for Josie&Co?

Josie&Co have a large and strong network (I think). If they want, they could gather the students, the parents, the representatives from schools, some experts on sex educations, NMP/MP (whoever you know) and the public from different races and religions, to make an official complaint. Also get the press involved. MOE will definitely do something about CSE because this is a very sensitive issue. The feminist mentor would be smart enough to know that this direct approach is simpler, cheaper, and most importantly acceptable by the majority.

So, if the prize is CSE, why did that feminist mentor ask (quietly within their network circle) Josie&Co to takeover AWARE? Was there a need to do so? Could there be other more important objectives requiring such a move?

Those are the questions you have to answer first.

Anyway, Josie&Co, AWARE and feminist mentor reminded me of 刘备, 荆州 and 诸葛亮.

And I did not know that 张飞 has the English name, Sally. Maybe he was a gay. :biggrin:
 

bellepepper02

Alfrescian
Loyal
The vast majority of Singaporeans have no intention of having such content dessiminated to our kids. In fact I am suspicious if this Josie and co. knew the existence of the instructor's manual until the pressure mounted to substantiate their allegations, many of which remain unaddressed.

If they had been aware of the guide, all it needed was someone to write to the forum page, pointing out extracts from the instructors guide and I can assure you that heads would have rolled. No one did , neither did any parents. When the guide surfaced, things were very much after the fact. I can tell you that the guide even suggested/alluded that heterosexuality (not homosexuality) cannot be explained. Thats appalling by any standard.

Just wanted to offer an alternative perspective on this.

Firstly, Josie L and Co did not know of existence of instructor's guide until they got into the AWARE office. The IG is confidential. The IG does not contain the contents of the sex ed programme. Instructors don't go into schools and mouth off the contents of the guide, i.e. telling them that homosexuality is ok, that foreplay is fun. They match what they say to the specific context of the students they're dealing with. There are also different levels of instruction.

My take on this is that sex education should not be moralising or didactic but tell kids the facts. It should convey to students the whole spectrum of attitudes and emphasise that their own values and that of their parents, religion, etc should guide their action and decisions. It should not reflect only the perspective of the conservatives but also that of liberals. Liberal parents have rights too.

Liberal parents stated at the EGM that they do not want their children to be taught that homosexuality is unnatural, wrong, etc. because they don't believe that, and they don't want their children to grow up being judgemental and discriminatory.

There are different schools of thought about the etiology of sexuality. Some consider it to be biological, while others think socialisation and psychology, and the primary formation of desires in childhood, have something to do with it. Others think it is a combination of factors. The 'heterosexuality-is-natural' argument has received a dent because scientific studies have recorded homosexuality and bisexuality among animals.

So, while some people may consider heterosexuality to be self-evident, others do not. Today, no bona fide sexuality expert is going to go around claiming that heterosexuality is natural and homosexuality is unnatural. And it is sexuality experts who design sex education programmes.

Do Singapore parents and MOE want sex educators to teach kids that homosexuality is not normal? What is that going to do to kids with homosexual tendencies? Do we want to point them towards suicide?

By describing homosexuality as 'neutral', AWARE was providing space to help such teens, to help them feel 'normal'. It's an awful thing to go through life considering yourself to be abnormal. It was not trying to promote homosexuality. To my mind, it was the only responsible thing to do. You don't become gay by receiving a lesson on it. This neutral positioning of homosexuality was also meant to guide other students not to discriminate against gays.

The conservatives also took umbrage at the CSE for positioning virginity and pre-marital sex as 'neutral'. Without saying so, through subterfuge and omission, they give the false impression that the instructors don't explain that several religious and other communities in Singapore are against pre-marital sex.

The CSE is conducted within the context of kids today being sexually active and the easy availability of sex materials on the internet (and AWARE had nothing to do with this). All students receive MOE's basic sexuality education programme. AWARE's programme comes in to supplement this. From what I understand, some schools identify students who they feel need such a programme.

Try telling sexually active kids that pre-marital sex is wrong and emphasising to them the virtues of virginity. They will think you are from another planet and switch off. The aim of CSE was to give such students the tools to make responsible decisions for themselves--to introduce issues of values, how to negotiate peer pressure, how to evaluate and form healthy relationships, to teach about safe sex, the consequences (economic and otherwise) of becoming pregnant.

Leading studies have proven that abstinence programmes don't help with containing the teen pregnancy problem.

All of my teacher friends are aghast at the withdrawal of the programme. They say their students badly need the programme. Why would they say so, knowing all the facts that have emerged now about the programme? They know their students, what they're up to, don't they?

Let's see where the narrow-mindedness of the Christian conservatives will lead our teens, in terms of STD levels, teen sexual activity levels, teen pregnancy, suicide rates in the future.

Perhaps AWARE's take on this issue might be useful, so you can see how complex the whole matter is:
http://we-are-aware.sg/cse
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
iswaran lacks the political antennae...no wonder he has yet to make it to the cabinet, probably never will...i knew the PAPs would have to capitulate on the CSE issue even before the 2nd...in fact i was surprised that josie and her pussycats were defeated on the 2nd...the majority feedback i was getting from professional singgies of all races, creed and gender was that they backed dr thio and josie on the concern over the CSE/LGBT issue...sadly and regrettably the fear and concern for their children's moral well being appears to be real regardless of the facts...when even people like Willie Cheng take such a position (although he was wrong on his law society eg.) it is clear that the old guard and the LGBT camp cannot win on this one, not at the moment anyways...
For now it. Cadres seem to have stepped in. Iswaran sure fucked it up.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Locke, not necessarily my views but seems to be the majority view held by singgies at the moment...there was another letter "did moe do its homework" in today 8/5 that i also wanted to paste in here but strangely could not find it???...oh i don't think harry would 'push' the issue, not too wise

Homosexuality is not neutral’
04:00 PM May 8, 2009
Letter from James Ray
I REFER to “Don’t skirt the issue by shielding children,” (May 6).

It seems Mr Joseph Wong has missed the main point of “conservative” parents’ concerns.

As a conservative parent who has worked with and counselled teenagers for more than 20 years, I am not against my children learning about sex in general and homosexuality in particular, once they are old enough to understand such issues. Sex and homosexuality are not “taboo” topics to be avoided.

However, they must be addressed carefully, and parents such as myself are concerned about who is teaching our children and what is being taught.

I do not know any of Aware’s Comprehensive Sexuality Education (CSE) trainers, so I cannot comment on whether or not they are “experienced professionals”. But I have seen a copy of Aware’s CSE training materials pertaining to sex. The fact that homosexuality is listed as “neutral” is of concern to me. Considering the physical nature of sex, the sexual union of a man and a woman has the potential to create another human being. This is natural. As such, I cannot consider homosexuality as “neutral”.

In addition, Singapore law classifies homosexual acts as illegal, so how can any material used in public schools teach that homosexuality is neutral?

I am not against my children attending a talk on homosexuality, if the talk is based on the fact that homosexual acts are not normal. However, if the talk promotes homosexuality and other unusual sexual acts as “neutral”, then I am against my children attending such a talk, because they are still young and impressionable.

Personally, I believe topics such as sex should be taught at home rather than at school, as morality must be considered.

Dear Scroobal

Wait what I don't get If "Gays are Normal" equals "promotion of gays" and both LKY and GCT in announcing non discrimination against gays in the civil service saw gays as normal, opposed by the church BTW and Josie and GANG............then why is AWARE being blamed for a tone set by LKY first ?

Locke
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Belle

I would argue that as long as the facts are taught, then to the extent some moralizing is thrown into the program is a compromise which liberals can live with.

" For example , homosexuality is regarded by the world wide medical community as normal, though it is frowned upon by Singapore Society at large . Religions such as christianity and Islam regard it as morally unacceptable whilst Buddhism finds it "normal".

" Anal sex is a form of hetrosexual and homosexual activity and if practiced has to be practiced safely......"

" Pre-marital sex is not encouraged but if one choses to do it these are the following issues you will have to deal with. "



Locke
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
belle,

i think religion and the LGBT card are 2 separate issues altough dr thio and josie and her pussycats appeared to wrongly try and merge them into one...ironically it still appears to be the case that dr thio and josie and her pussycats did get what they wanted...Aware's CSE programme being pulled by MOE and majority conservative singgies being concerned over Aware's perceived inclusive views on LGBT regardless of the facts...

i stand corrected but i still get the impression that josie and her pussycats would have won on the 2nd but for their clandestine unethical religious fervour...what happened to the remaining 900 Aware members who did not turn up to vote on the 2nd (3,000 - 2,100 who voted)?

Trust the homophobes here to see this as a victory for Thio Su Mien and company. All this proves is that the group should have brought their issues to the govt and not tried to steeplejack a NGO.

Today, they acted against gays. Tomorrow they'll come for you. And then you won't be allowed to have sex unless it's for reproductive purposes. Hope you're still on their side then.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
yes agree with you on both counts...these groups appear to be cunning, sly and self righteous...from the vid clips i also noticed dr thio's sudden great interest in CEDAW...also NCC's tie up with Capitaland is by no means random...

Also agree that govt will start looking at the "wayward pipers". After all, TSM and Company's real enemy was the govt. They just didn't have the guts to tackle it directly so they went for AWARE instead.

TSM and Co were also very interested in using AWARE to propel their Christian women into parliament. JL kept harping on the need to get 35% women into Parliament. They had some very nefarious plans.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
aiyah it is called politics lah:wink:
This govt is like that. Since LKY always find plugging into the world's grid and embracing globalisation is a holy grail, he has no choice but to accept gays into govt service and also their equality as a fact of life. On the other hand, he doesnt want to go so far, so Section 377A is not repealed so asshole sex is condoned but not decriminalised on paper. If parents started to complain, as they have now, with 1,300 signed in a petition, he gets edgy and moves away from the edge back towards the centre. If not, his son will face the wrath at the next elections,and not him. That is the hypocrisy- one minute gungho, next minute tail between the legs, and the asshole shut!
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Por

His basic position is non negotiable as with other "conservative" parents. The question at large is how far these people represent the majority or a vocal minority noting the organized christian element versus the silent, and the liberals.

Please refer to my suggested compromise answers to Belle and how it should be taught presenting both sides of the answer to a sensitive question. Would that be acceptable to a "conservative " parent ?

And seriously how much should conservative parents like him want "morals" to be taught by schools ? At some point in time , other fault lines will appear which will defeat the purpose of sex education which is to arm the kids with choices so that they can choose to do or not to do. I can think of abortion and contraception as another issue which will surface with their argument being abstinence should be taught because teaching on abortion and contraception enourages pre marital sex.

Ask any young teacher in the front line of education and they will answer that they see kids asking and learning about sexuality at a younger and younger age and they struggle to provide the right answers. Parents can't control their kids 24/7 and issues such as homosexuality are just a click away. How far should "conservative" parents outsource the teaching of morality to schools ? Who is more responsible ?




Locke
 
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