AWARE Sex Guide Suspended

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

dr thio has never been interested in true real activism period...i have known her and her entire family even including her daughter-in-law stef for donkey years...none of them are true real activists period...saying that i would not be surprised if her son shen has aspirations to become law soc president

TSM would have been an able and effective activist. She has the experience of managing real organizations (unlike Josie). She is very intelligent and has developed a deep network of the rich and powerful. It is unfortunate that since her CONVERSION, a religious nut she has become.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

flesh is still weak bro...flesh is still weak:p

some of the most horny lovers here in the bay area are actually the religious fundies - they fuck like rabbits front, top, bottom and rear when no one is aware.

fucking wanking wanton hypocrites.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

yes...that bloody disgusting revolting sanctimonious signboard 'praising god' at Lippo's project next to newton circus says it all...bet ghim hock was still at lippo when the signboard came up...and riady is hardly all black and white:p

The answer lies in the fact that both Mr, Mrs & Master Thio are heavily involved in the property industry. An industry whose favourites champions are you know who.

Business comes before religion and personal philosophy for many and they are no exception..

on the contrary i think claire came out of this brouhaha smelling of roses all things considered

Looks like Claire Nazar did not know about the good practice of hedging and thus paid dearly.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

i can't forget josie's "women beneath my wings" blurb to balji and deb soon on cna...jokes aside i must say your insight is interesting and quite appealing...just one point though, i recall looking at the vid clip on josie and her pussycats post election on the 2nd...and i think they did try to set out what they wanted to do to some extent and that lois, maureen , jenica and another gal did have some experience in community/ngo work...however saying that,it is clear that they were no match for the old guard's experience in running an ngo like Aware...the irony though is that they helped increase membership and awareness...

as an aside since you raised claire chiang, i am keen to hear your views as to why claire has remained silent all this time...oh and did she attend the eogm on the 2nd?

It's my own conclusion from scrutinising exco's statements, trying to figure out what plans they had for AWARE. They had no specific plans for anything. They couldn't even tell us how they would avoid discriminating against gays (as part of their CEDAW obligation). They hadn't thought through it. Then they spoke of how they wanted to address job issues for women, but again no specific plans. And if these were their aims, why did they dissolve sub-committees? They wanted a whole new breed in charge, not just of exco but in committees doing research and advocacy work. Even their office manager had to come from COOS.

The only definite plan they announced was a mentoring scheme to get women into parliament. They spoke of the need for 35% female representation, and even identified mentors such as Claire Chiang and Chan Heng Chee they would approach. They had obviously thought much about this--unlike other issues they mentioned. After the AWARE EGM vote of no confidence, when they returned to resign, this issue of getting women into parliament was the ONLY thing they mentioned. It was really a weird thing to say because nobody raised this issue during the EGM. It was Josie Lau's last words to AWARE. She didn't mention female employment issues or gay issue.

I've been reading about steeplejacking in US, Australia and NZ--about neopentecostal organisations trying to infiltrate mainstream churches and political organisations. They focus on two aims--pro family concerns (incl. anti-gay issue) and political representation (in govt and in parliament). COOS has connections to these neopentecostal organisations. These articles have also linked steeplejacking in Singapore to racial connections--COOS and other churches involved in this are overwhelmingly Chinese in their appeal and congregation.

AWARE has shot four leaders into parliament as NMPs. It's one sure avenue of launching an NMP into parliament--nobody else from any other women's organization has represented the women's constituency in parliament. It was strange that they suggested only Claire Chiang from the AWARE-linked NMPs (forgetting Jennifer Lee, Braema Mathi and Kanwaljit Soin). She's not only Chinese but her most renowned research work has been on Chinese entrepreneurship. And don't forget her illustrious Chinese family business and cultural connections. Unlike other former AWARE NMPs, I uunderstand she's working with govt organisations now, as is Chan Heng Chee, so they would be a great way to propel women into govt.

AWARE is also represented on ministerial and statutory board committees, and is invited to take part in regional conferences, workshops and meetings. It is involved in forming of public policy.

So with regard to political representation, it's not only enough to get into the ruling party (which they have probably already done), but also to stifle AWARE's offering of non-Christian, anti-patriarchal and non-business-oriented viewpoints and to harness the NGO for their own purposes. AWARE can be an additional conduit for getting into the ruling party. Which is what the mentoring scheme would have done.

Something else that the exco talked about that was significant--that it was not AWARE's job to get into consumer matters and the environment! Both of these are very much issues affecting women. There's even eco-feminism, a branch of feminism dealing with environment issues. But those with business interests can be expected to shut down consumer and environment activism.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

not forgetting "i am on page 73...as a lion hearted pioneer feminist":p

Yes, telling you to "Shut up and sit down" is very self-sacrificing and also the perfect method of governance.

.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

do you agree with balji that the PAPs would have directly intervened if dr thio did not come out in the open of her own accord (albeit probably flushed out)?

The issue was the conduct of this particular group. They kept silent on the issues and their agenda. TSM revealed the issue when she had little choice when her email surfaced. .

yes i tend to agree with you on this one...this whole episode appears to be pretty fluid and dynamic...in any event from what you say about the Aware instructor's guide, iswaran should really get a proper bollocking:p

The vast majority of Singaporeans have no intention of having such content dessiminated to our kids. In fact I am suspicious if this Josie and co. knew the existence of the instructor's manual until the pressure mounted to substantiate their allegations, many of which remain unaddressed.

If they had been aware of the guide, all it needed was someone to write to the forum page, pointing out extracts from the instructors guide and I can assure you that heads would have rolled. No one did , neither did any parents. When the guide surfaced, things were very much after the fact. I can tell you that the guide even suggested/alluded that heterosexuality (not homosexuality) cannot be explained. Thats appalling by any standard. .

yes again...interesting to see li ann gone quiet all of a sudden...cat got her tongue perhaps?...wonder whether she has thrown her hat in for a second NMP term after this brouhaha

After the debacle and watching the minute by minute developments, I suspect the intention was to use AWARE as a vehicle to push thru an NMP as a proxy to bolster or provide a replacement for Li-Anne. AWARE is the most successful entity is garnering the most spots in term of NMPs. That would explain the seemingly surreptitious and subsversive manner that the takeover was undertaken. Of course it was legal, of course it was within the constitution and thats the reason why the old guards re-took by legal means. Member stacking had occurred and the old guards learnt from it and did the the same. What is sauce for goose must be sauce for the gander. The only difference was that they did not hide the agenda or misrepresent themselves. You claiming that it was legal when no one suggested otherwise, suggest a less than intelligent pursuit of non existent disagreement.

.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

1) you forgot about pastor derek hong's role and the strong influence of his church COOS in all of this

2) i think belle and scroobal have answered this question

My $0.02 (Not to anyone and certainly not an attack.)

1) Religion – was it / will it be involved?

We have to look at independence, and therefore the conflicts of interest, actual, potential or perceived. The whole thing is about trust.

So we ask questions like:

Did Josie&Co “actually” play the religion card? There are a lot of arguments about this, but I think nobody (except Josie&Co themselves) knows for sure.

Could Josie&Co “potentially" play the religion card? Yes because they officially brought in that feminist mentor to guide them. People can visualise where it could potentially go, in the past or into the future.

Was Josie&Co "perceived" to have played the religion card? This is the tricky part. Josie&Co have the responsibility to avoid circumstances leading to such perceptions. Collectively their backgrounds, the way they come together with that feminist mentor etc became a great burden. If and when someone challenges their integrity, it is their utmost duty to stand up against the accusations, defend their positions and protect their reputations (like someone we all know). Josie&Co did nothing, or simply not enough. Who to blame? You decide.

It is not difficult to understand why they lost the EGM.


2) CSE – Suspended = Major victory for Josie&Co?

Josie&Co have a large and strong network (I think). If they want, they could gather the students, the parents, the representatives from schools, some experts on sex educations, NMP/MP (whoever you know) and the public from different races and religions, to make an official complaint. Also get the press involved. MOE will definitely do something about CSE because this is a very sensitive issue. The feminist mentor would be smart enough to know that this direct approach is simpler, cheaper, and most importantly acceptable by the majority.

So, if the prize is CSE, why did that feminist mentor ask (quietly within their network circle) Josie&Co to takeover AWARE? Was there a need to do so? Could there be other more important objectives requiring such a move?

Those are the questions you have to answer first.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

belle,

this is a numbers game...pure and simple...unfortunately and regrettably it appears that the conservatives far outweigh the liberals regardless of race, creed and gender...for now at least...as an aside just look at the negative backlash that the gays got in the states because of perez hilton's rash emotional outburst against ms california...and this is the us of a that we are talking about

‘Homosexuality is not neutral’
04:00 PM May 8, 2009
Letter from James Ray
I REFER to “Don’t skirt the issue by shielding children,” (May 6).

It seems Mr Joseph Wong has missed the main point of “conservative” parents’ concerns.

As a conservative parent who has worked with and counselled teenagers for more than 20 years, I am not against my children learning about sex in general and homosexuality in particular, once they are old enough to understand such issues. Sex and homosexuality are not “taboo” topics to be avoided.

However, they must be addressed carefully, and parents such as myself are concerned about who is teaching our children and what is being taught.

I do not know any of Aware’s Comprehensive Sexuality Education (CSE) trainers, so I cannot comment on whether or not they are “experienced professionals”. But I have seen a copy of Aware’s CSE training materials pertaining to sex. The fact that homosexuality is listed as “neutral” is of concern to me. Considering the physical nature of sex, the sexual union of a man and a woman has the potential to create another human being. This is natural. As such, I cannot consider homosexuality as “neutral”.

In addition, Singapore law classifies homosexual acts as illegal, so how can any material used in public schools teach that homosexuality is neutral?

I am not against my children attending a talk on homosexuality, if the talk is based on the fact that homosexual acts are not normal. However, if the talk promotes homosexuality and other unusual sexual acts as “neutral”, then I am against my children attending such a talk, because they are still young and impressionable.

Personally, I believe topics such as sex should be taught at home rather than at school, as morality must be considered.

Just wanted to offer an alternative perspective on this.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

why not just an opt out form prior to the CSE programme being taught?...so win win for both conservatives and liberals alike

Dear Belle

I would argue that as long as the facts are taught, then to the extent some moralizing is thrown into the program is a compromise which liberals can live with.

" For example , homosexuality is regarded by the world wide medical community as normal, though it is frowned upon by Singapore Society at large . Religions such as christianity and Islam regard it as morally unacceptable whilst Buddhism finds it "normal".

" Anal sex is a form of hetrosexual and homosexual activity and if practiced has to be practiced safely......"

" Pre-marital sex is not encouraged but if one choses to do it these are the following issues you will have to deal with. "



Locke

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

hear you and feel the love bro...but i tell you when it comes to LGBT card majority of singgie parents go bananas regardless of class, education, race, creed, gender and also regardless of the facts...other aspects of sexuality not so bad but LGBT seems to be the red cape to their bull...

like i said above, perhaps an opt out form prior to the CSE programme would be best...win win for both conseravtives and liberals alike...

at the end of the day...like it or not, parents still call the shots with respect to their own children's moral well being...so let them handle it

Dear Por

His basic position is non negotiable as with other "conservative" parents. The question at large is how far these people represent the majority or a vocal minority noting the organized christian element versus the silent, and the liberals.

Please refer to my suggested compromise answers to Belle and how it should be taught presenting both sides of the answer to a sensitive question. Would that be acceptable to a "conservative " parent ?

And seriously how much should conservative parents like him want "morals" to be taught by schools ? At some point in time , other fault lines will appear which will defeat the purpose of sex education which is to arm the kids with choices so that they can choose to do or not to do. I can think of abortion and contraception as another issue which will surface with their argument being abstinence should be taught because teaching on abortion and contraception enourages pre marital sex.

Ask any young teacher in the front line of education and they will answer that they see kids asking and learning about sexuality at a younger and younger age and they struggle to provide the right answers. Parents can't control their kids 24/7 and issues such as homosexuality are just a click away. How far should "conservative" parents outsource the teaching of morality to schools ? Who is more responsible ?




Locke

 

[Zombie]

"1) you forgot about pastor derek hong's role and the strong influence of his church COOS in all of this"

I was just saying, that the potential/perceived conflicts of interest affected the final outcome, and therefore there is no point spending time speculating who actually played the religion card.


"2) i think belle and scroobal have answered this question"

LOLzz, thanks for telling me. I did not know because I submitted my post written one day earlier.

 

[cleareyes]

wow.. so many closet gays in this forum supporting AWARE's pro-gay stand..

scary.. and yucky too..

Not going against the issue does not equal to support.

as i have said, to me, AWARE is out to create awareness and awareness is not a sign of support but to give information so that some people coulod make better informed-choice to their lifestyle.

The matters about the AWARE EGM is not as simple as as what could happen in a children's playground. many issues were actually there but i suppose the most main issue that should be looked at is not about AWARE's sex education program but more on how they could help woman of all race and religion in Singapore. But with the Christian fundamentalist attitude of Thio Su Mein, the lack of certaintly displayed by Josie lau and how Maureen Ong mumbled the intention of changing the muslim laws for whatever reasons, I dont see an AWARE that can help Singapore but one that could set us back for decades in social and civil development.

 

[bellepepper02]

.just one point though, i recall looking at the vid clip on josie and her pussycats post election on the 2nd...and i think they did try to set out what they wanted to do to some extent and that lois, maureen , jenica and another gal did have some experience in community/ngo work...however saying that,it is clear that they were no match for the old guard's experience in running an ngo like Aware...the irony though is that they helped increase membership and awareness...

as an aside since you raised claire chiang, i am keen to hear your views as to why claire has remained silent all this time...oh and did she attend the eogm on the 2nd?

As far as I recall, only one woman in the lot had ever done community work. They flashed their CVs at the EGM, and I remember another woman made that same observation.

At the EGM, they said nothing they hadn't said before to the press about their plans. This was surprising because we thought they might have worked on offering some detail. They did try to answer some of the accusations levied at them, but all they showed was that they lacked the language and familiarity with women's issues. In fact one woman actually told them they should improve their knowledge of feminism as well as their rhetoric and grammar!

Claire Chaing didn't attend the EGM. I don't know much about her, just that she's doing a lot of work with govt organisations. And once she does that, she can't afford to be seen out with the NGOs. Claire made a lot of show but really Kanwaljit Soin was the one who made an impact as NMP. I admire her hair and clothes more than anything else. Haha! Seems like she disappeared from view after 2001. In 2005, she was president of a business grouping called Compact for Corporate Social Responsibility. Maybe she still works in that area.

 

[bellepepper02]

belle,

this is a numbers game...pure and simple...unfortunately and regrettably it appears that the conservatives far outweigh the liberals regardless of race, creed and gender...for now at least...as an aside just look at the negative backlash that the gays got in the states because of perez hilton's rash emotional outburst against ms california...and this is the us of a that we are talking about

Yes, there are probably more conservatives than liberals here. Which was why the EGM win was such a covetted victory for liberals! We had to really work to get that attendance. It was a good experience for us--liberals recovering from their laid-back ways!

However most conservatives don't want anything more than the chance to live their lives according to their own values. They're not interested in pushing others to do the same. The fundamentalist types are a very small minority--I think all 5000 of them signed the petition against the CSE!

But isn't it such a hypocrisy, crying foul about AWARE's sex ed programme, and then our adults are forever having extra-marital affairs, going on sex tours, etc. And we like watching porn!

People like James Ray annoy me. They think their opinion is the last word on everything, and usually they're awfully ignorant. And they're dishonest at a basic level. He asks how can AWARE teach that homosexuality is neutral when it is against the law here. He conveniently forgets that the PM said that they would not however engage that law, and also that he wore pink on the day the repeal of 377a was rejected.

Singaporeans are ok with having homosexuals work in the top echelons of government because they profit from these people's talent. But they don't want to give them their basic rights. Maybe they think gays should be their slaves, like foreign workers. I find this morally objectionable.

 

[bellepepper02]

why not just an opt out form prior to the CSE programme being taught?...so win win for both conservatives and liberals alike

There is such an opt out form. There always was for the AWARE programme.

 

[bellepepper02]

Porfirio Rubirosa,

Just wanted to add--Singaporeans are not so much conservative as selfish and self-centred. They're not given to thinking about other people's needs and respecting other perspectives. That's why we have so little participation in civil society work. These parents who signed the petition--they never gave a thought to how other people might want something different for their kids. The liberals don't want to stuff their views down other people's throats--they just want it acknowledged that there are other ways (often proven) to think about issues.

This Ray guy wants a conservative approach to sex education--never mind that kids are getting contradictory info on the net. He forgets that life is not the same since he went to school. It's irresponsible.

 

[bellepepper02]

dr thio has never been interested in true real activism period...i have known her and her entire family even including her daughter-in-law stef for donkey years...none of them are true real activists period...saying that i would not be surprised if her son shen has aspirations to become law soc president

Is the son from the same church? I hope not. Is he demented too?

 

[londontrader]

DrPanacea;

"Thanks to me you now admit and agree that zeroo used the word 'religion' as as a metaphor and not religion per se. I don't need anyone to educated me, PAP or any others."

I never said that it wasn't a metaphor. I did imply that it was a very SILLY metaphor. If you took your "educated" head out of your "uneducated" ass, you might understand that. I doubt anyone (PAP included) can educate some one who writes as badly as yourself ie.

-------------------------------------
I don't need anyone to EDUCATED me
---------------------------------------

"TSM and Josie did not push the religion onto others in the Aware issue. They were civic minded people wanting to protect their own and others' children from homosexuals."

A simple petition to the MOE would have sufficed
No need for all that drama unless they had more sinister motives

"That's why they are against the CSE program.
Show me where did they forced religion into the issue."

You can start with the revelation of that famous email by TSM and follow the trail................

"The old guards and their homosexuals supporters hooligan and gangster behaviour were the militants in the EGM. Never Josie's supporters."

Josie's supporters were pretty brain dead at the EGM
It seemed that they were only capable of casting a vote
Talk about busing in a truckload of VOTING FODDER

"I say again if you still don't get it. Josie and her team was voted in constitutionally, legally and civically."

It's called keeping to the letter of the law but breaking the SPIRIT of the law
That disgusting behaviour (by Josie's team) motivated many Christian women to vote for the old guard.

"Yes, LKY would very proud of me. Are you envious?"

You're proud of being associated with a despot?
You really are one of those anal retentive PAPies

"And what's wrong with having bus loads of supporters? Didn't you see this in GEs too? Wake up Rip Van Winkle!"

Busing in voting fodder = common tactic used in "Steeplejacking"
If you saw "busing" during GEs, it's referred to as "Electoral Fraud"

"Are you upset that the MOE had suspended the CSE program to prevent more homosexuals coming to join the likes of you?"

You like to brand people opposed to your stance as homosexuals. This suggests that you are likely an angry CLOSET HOMOSEXUAL, who blames other homosexuals for your sorry state in life. It's very bad for your mental health! I strongly urge you to stop pretending to be a straight gay basher and accept what nature intended for you.

BTW, I'm not a homosexual like yourself, so stop the flirting!

As for MOE's actions, I'm not surprised that they chose the safe conservative route in a country as socially conservative as Singapore.

"TSM and Josie and her team has lost the battle, but they WON the war."

Imagine how they could have won the battle and the war if they had chosen the honest route instead of deceit!

 

[londontrader]

DrPanacea;

"A blogger's site is not an issue for me as long as he posts authentic info. This one does so. You don't have to read the comments of the blogger, at least read the points in the instructors guide in the CSE program."

1. I'm already familiar with the contents of AWARE's CSE. I would point out that MOE objected to a very small portion (approx 8%) of the CSE Programme.

2. The Guide you mentioned was marked CONFIDENTIAL and not to be accessed by students.

3. Why are you posting all this irrelevant nonsense? We were debating the Singapore Govt's official stand on this issue. Do reference something RELEVANT (ie. to do with the Govt's position) for a change.

"The MOE suspended the programs with all external vendors only AFTER TSM and her team blew the whistle. You have a porblem with that?"

No I don't have a problem with that
TSM and everyone else has a right to petition the MOE
They don't have a right to "steeplejack" an NGO

"The MOE had been caught sleeping on the job."

Many ministries are still sleeping
Maybe your PAPies can do something about it

"It is all very clear to me. Not even an iota of doubt in their intention. TSM and Josie and her team has done a great service to the people of Singapore. They sacrifice themselves knowing well that they will be ostracised by the people they are against. I am thankful such people do exist. I would do likewise."

You are entitled to your opinion
Others should be allowed that freedom too

"Would you do the same for our country?"

You mean hijack an organization, spend lots of their money, lie, cheat, behave like a bunch of sanctimonious asses?

I think I will pass on that!

 

[londontrader]

wow.. so many closet gays in this forum supporting AWARE's pro-gay stand..

scary.. and yucky too..

No, there are so many closet gays here pretending to be straight homo bashers!