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Vincent Cheng: ISA victims must speak out

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
Still in denial, what capitalism are talking you about, authoritarian capitalism?? You are sick and confused.

You ignorant son of a whore.

Capitalism is a way a country can be run. It can be democratic, authoritarian, monarchic, whatever. It is a system where people eat what they kill and do not look to the state for handouts.

Same for communism. It can be democratic, authoritarian, monarchic, whatever.
 

Kid278

Alfrescian
Loyal
You ignorant son of a whore.

Capitalism is a way a country can be run. It can be democratic, authoritarian, monarchic, whatever. It is a system where people eat what they kill and do not look to the state for handouts.

Same for communism. It can be democratic, authoritarian, monarchic, whatever.

You are loosing control, you got everything, facts and substances all mixed up. Get a grip and come to terms with yourself or you will remain sick and confused all your life, a sad fcuk so to speak.
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
You are loosing control, you got everything, facts and substances all mixed up. Get a grip and come to terms with yourself or you will remain sick and confused all your life, a sad fcuk so to speak.

You communist pigs are the ones who need to get a grip and realise that capitalism now rules. 66.6% of us agree :biggrin:
 

Kid278

Alfrescian
Loyal
You communist pigs are the ones who need to get a grip and realise that capitalism now rules. 66.6% of us agree :biggrin:

Dont get so worked up while I am having fun. You still cant tell the difference between capitalism and authoritarian capitalism.

Had it not for phobocracy do you think they will get that percentage to rule, just how silly can you be?
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dont get so worked up while I am having fun. You still cant tell the difference between capitalism and authoritarian capitalism.

Had it not for phobocracy do you think they will get that percentage to rule, just how silly can you be?

Don't worry I'm having as much fun calling you communist pigs such. :biggrin:
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

There were 3 agendas. The first one was Church related and there was an overall sense of liberation theology going overboard. After old man was snubbed by the Pope and his minions including Jayakumar by Gregory Yong, they acted. The church had been warned nearly a decade earlier about Bt Ho Swee and the Nazareth Centre and the Church responded but this time they did not. Teo became a target because she began accompanying Filipino maids to lodge complaints in Police stations. Not too mention her Law Society days including her infamous EOGM

The 2nd agenda was Tan Wah Piow. In the course of the detention, more was revealed including Vincent meeting Tan which was not known before. Which is not uncommon as many of us had met Tan during our time in the UK. Tan had become prominent again over the hanging of Tan Cha Wa by the Malaysian authorities and the Singapore Govt desire to prosecute his brother for putting up a communist tombstone.

The Malaysian Special Branch provided the evidence of Tan's link with Chin Peng and CPM when they arrested and detained a Malaysian Malay who is now with PAS. 5 of those who were expelled for USSU activities including Juliet Chin ended up at the VRM broadcasting station in China with Chin Peng. One returned to HK. This Malay chap was asked by Chin Peng personally to go to Hk to meet with Tsui Ho Kwong who was Juliet's boyfriend and Tan's USSU associate. He was provided money for education in UK and was sent to meet Tan. One of those who was detained in Spectrum was found to be using CPM code when communicating with Tan and ex-USSU associates. Another who was detained had stayed with Tan and wife at their home while doing her post-grad in UK. When VRM was disbanded at the request of the old man and the peace talks facilitated by the Thais came to a conclusion, 5 of the USSU chaps were given asylum in France, Holland and Belgium. Most are now in the UK. Interestingly, Teo Soh Lung who wrote a report on the then proposed law by Jayakumar to deprive citizenship to those who stay away from Singapore some years earlier came around to haunt her. It was well known that the law was aimed at Tan. Planned or unplanned, Tan was notified on the exact same day that the arrest and detention of first of the 26 occurred that he had lost his citizenship.

The 3rd agenda was unexpected. Patrick Seong had notified the International Press about the ex-detainees who would be releasing a statement about their torture and other claims. He also notified them that their re-arrest would follow. The foreign press staked out the homes of the ex-detainees which irritated ISD. He was then arrested and detained. He then revealed the Hank Hendrickson affair and Francis Seow who was acting for 2 detainees were also detained as he presented himself at Whitley. Seong's info was kept secret until LHL mentioned this during a dinner with ISD staff at the Istana years later.

Tan and other USSU activists were in Castro dilemma. They joined the CPM because they were the biggest irritant to the old man's regime. Notice all ended up in capitalist countries. Tan to gain credibility began to use Maoist dogma his meetings.

By the way, letters and notes showed to Yong by Old Man are in public records and that's how Barr got access to it. It became public because old man sued one of the foreign press agencies for defamation introduced those docs for the case.

Agree on the lawyers such as Roslina Baba etc. Lets not forget QCs Anthony Lester, Geoffrey Robertson and Lord Alexander. I believe that Lester was banned.

In a nutshell, if one goes thru what each individual did, none of the detention would make sense. I am sure the ISD officers would have second thoughts shortly after the event. One of the interesting thing about the way the ISD conducted its investigation indicates that they broke every rule in conducting a proper and fair investigation. I think they got excited as they only had Chia Thye Poh and the old timers had retired. They all got involved in the interrogation including the senior brass such as SK, Poh Heng and Benny that there no arm's length review of the interrogation and interview submissions. It thus led to collective actions towards lengthy detention of Teo and Vincent Cheng both of whom had no dealings with Tan while others had. I am sure this also lead to collective amnesia.

The same thing happened during the Official Secrets Case involving Tharman and company. The top brass got subpoened to court, because they all ended up in the interrogation room.

The sad part is many of those associated with CPM went on to have a good life including one having a multi-million dollar business. The church mice who looked after the lower income, abused maids and exploited employees ended with no closure and their life in a limbo. That is life.

ps. smiling sam ran the commission of inquiry after JBJ made allegations in parliament of executive interference in the Michael Khoo affair. Notice how smiling sam get all the delicate cases.




to try n derive a more informative balanced opinion of this dark bizzare sad sorry chapter in Singapore's history...read the following insightful texts which provide both an in depth well researched academic view...and a first hand account of this sad sorry saga by none other than Teo Soh Lung herself...

 
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lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Dear Scroobal

Thank you for the details. I am curious though as to why and how immature flirtation, with a then dying ideology could result in such an exaggeration of a possible plot ? The late eighties has already seen the decline of communism, the diminishing of the threat in every form, and yet why did OLD Man and the ISD view it or take it so seriously ?

They knew in 1987 , the weakened state of the CPM and its desire for some form of peace talks so why the building up of basically a non existent conspiracy ?



Locke
 

Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
I suppose many realise that the period was between the time the first PAP guards went out (with LKY forcing the rest out) and the time the 2nd gen (GCT era) came about. It's revealed how LKY has no political acumen. Instead he martyred a bunch of weak nobodies who can't even speak well at rallies but made them heroes who are still nibbling his backside until today. GKS and TCC would have never allowed it.

1987 remains the biggest embarassment for PAP in history. And the issue will crop up in the biggest manner will be after 2011 when 9 opposition MP/NCMPs are in Parliament - surely one will bring it up.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

been busy bro...also got tired of the useless bickering in this forum...but this thread brought back the urge to post as i tot i cld make a small concrete contribution...

cheerios
My goodness Bro, where have you reappeared from?
Your last appearance in this forum was 1 year ago.
Or have you been here all the time under another nick?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Alex Au put it aptly when he referred to Communism as "in terminal decline". It was old man doing what he knows best - bogeyman politics. This was not a stellar period for the ISD and I am sure they wanted to forget about it. The fact that we had one former cabinet minister who resigned over it and present cabinet labeling them as social activist is telling.

What irks me most is that while this was going on, Singapore government was handling request from CPM to place their kids in jobs including one who refused to renounce his beliefs. This chap's son ended working in Ho Ching's company. Another 2 ended up in SPH.

We Singaporeans got ourselves to blame. I remember clearly as the events unfolded. People waited for the compelling evidence, none was forthcoming. Then Vincent Cheng and few others did their confessionals. The thing that came to the minds of most people is how the hell Vincent and Teo going to overthrow the regime, cause a revolution, or even let out a loud fart in public. There was no logistics, there were no signs of preparations. There was no followers in the first place. City Harvest Church has more brainwashed idiots than this lot. Was there clandestine meeting? Was there subliminal messages in Church publications? Was there a call to arms? Was Singapore a tinderbox at the time? Was there a racial angle? Was the Catholic Church display signs of unrest. Did workers in Jurong planned to go on a lightning strike at the instigation of Vincent. Did Teo convince Filipino maids to down aprons at 12 noon? Chee, Lamei, Ejay, Tilik and Uncle Yap caused more mayhem then this lot.

Back to clandestine meetings. There was none involving Teo and Vincent or members of the Church.

This is absolute rubbish. Singapore in 1987 was as sterile as it ever was.


Dear Scroobal

Thank you for the details. I am curious though as to why and how immature flirtation, with a then dying ideology could result in such an exaggeration of a possible plot ? The late eighties has already seen the decline of communism, the diminishing of the threat in every form, and yet why did OLD Man and the ISD view it or take it so seriously ?

They knew in 1987 , the weakened state of the CPM and its desire for some form of peace talks so why the building up of basically a non existent conspiracy ?



Locke
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

think u r onto something wrt the 3 agendas thinggy...however how do u get "26" being detained...i think i got it wrong at "22"...but on further checking it seems to be "24"??...

Soh Lung seems to mention a lady friend who was also detained by the name of "K"...do u know who this "K" is or was n why Soh Lung declined to state her real full name in the book?...

on the legal eagle front...i seem to hv left out Subhas:biggrin:...but fm what i recall in his memoirs, Suhbas appears to hv an axe to grind wif Francis...

i found Soh Lung's book bringing me back to the 80s n 70s: "Euro Communist" purge, Kuo Pao Kun, Kenneth Liang n SBC etc...Harry's late spin master Chandra probably played a key role in the telly dramaramas:rolleyes::biggrin:...also did not know her brother Teo Eng Seng was such a well regarded artist...

as for those 'Commies' who got rich...i always think of the late Dr. Sheng Nam Chin:rolleyes:...btw i gather Soh Lung's present take on the matter goes something like this:...will the old bully ever get a taste of hell?...i doubt it...he will live long and well and we'd better get on with our lives!...


There were 3 agendas.

Planned or unplanned, Tan was notified on the exact same day that the arrest and detention of first of the 26 occurred that he had lost his citizenship.



Agree on the lawyers such as Roslina Baba etc. Lets not forget QCs Anthony Lester, Geoffrey Robertson and Lord Alexander. I believe that Lester was banned.


The sad part is many of those associated with CPM went on to have a good life including one having a multi-million dollar business. The church mice who looked after the lower income, abused maids and exploited employees ended with no closure and their life in a limbo. That is life.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
These things fall under Official Secrets Act. There is nothing one can do about it even if they were in parliament.

To provide closure, someone needs to call these people up and tell that they overreacted. It will help in some extent. It will take someone with big shoes to do it. I think Tharman and Dhanabalan helped in that sense.



1987 remains the biggest embarassment for PAP in history. And the issue will crop up in the biggest manner will be after 2011 when 9 opposition MP/NCMPs are in Parliament - surely one will bring it up.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

exactly what Barr opined in his papers...Harry using the Bogeyman...to cut the chicken's head to scare the monkeys...and scare them he sadly did indeed...

the fact that Operation Spectrum history is not found in the main section of the ISD 'museum' is perhaps curious to say the least:rolleyes::biggrin:

It was old man doing what he knows best - bogeyman politics. This was not a stellar period for the ISD and I am sure they wanted to forget about it. The fact that we had one former cabinet minister who resigned over it and present cabinet labeling them as social activist is telling.

.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

I wouldn't go as far as to call Tan Wah Piow QC a coward, but it's glaringly obvious absconding from NS was his primary objective. What personal or political persecution? Go and ask which PAP son or Opposition son, who don't enlist for NS before tertiary education? Dr. Chee Soon Juan served until rank ASP (Major), Goh Meng Seng and Steve Chia served until rank Captain. They're still in Opposition. Dr. Chee getting into trouble has nothing to do with NS. What's QC Tan talking about using NS enlisment to deprive him of his political liberty, I don't understand. He backed out, shipped out, that's all.
 

aurvandil

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

This is absolute rubbish. Singapore in 1987 was as sterile as it ever was.

1987 was actually not a "sterile" year. Singapore had slipped into recession in 1986 and we would be seeing the first of many Employer CPF cuts to make Singaporean workers more attractive. The FT policy had not been born and there was concern among top policy makers that perhaps Singapore would go into a period of slow GDP growth of 2-4%. The end of the age of "economic miracle" was a huge concern as it was one of the cornerstones of PAP political power.

The detention was therefore an attempt to put discussions about economics/social equity into the same category as discussion about race. The message they were trying to send is that if you were caught playing politics with economics, you can expect ISD to come lock you up.

With the benefit of hindsight, this of course looks silly. Singapore rebounded quickly from the recession. The secret "FT-GDP formula" was discovered shortly after and Singapore had many more good years of FT fueled GDP growth.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Sorry, it should be 24 with Patrick taking 23 and Francis 24.

I have not read Teo's book. But I can guess who she is referring to. Teo must have chosen the letter arbitrarily as it has no intelligence. I should mention that there is on-going tension with some elements of the group over what was revealed to ISD and what was revealed to the group eventually. There is deep sense of victimisation on those who were detained longer when they had nothing to cough up. They could not cough up because they had literally done no wrong and could not name people that they did not meet.

Old man seemed to resent euro-communist, pseudo-communist and fireside communist. But he seem to admire the CPM hardcore that killed savagely. CPM that crossed were treated very well. None of the 22 detainees were allowed to join the ex-political detainees association because they were not subversive. Seems illogical and catches the govt flat-footed. So naturally not entitled to stipends, pensions, jobs for themselves and families.



think u r onto something wrt the 3 agendas thinggy...however how do u get "26" being detained...i think i got it wrong at "22"...but on further checking it seems to be "24"??...

Soh Lung seems to mention a lady friend who was also detained by the name of "K"...do u know who this "K" is or was n why Soh Lung declined to state her real full name in the book?...

on the legal eagle front...i seem to hv left out Subhas:biggrin:...but fm what i recall in his memoirs, Suhbas appears to hv an axe to grind wif Francis...

i found Soh Lung's book bringing me back to the 80s n 70s: "Euro Communist" purge, Kuo Pao Kun, Kenneth Liang n SBC etc...Harry's late spin master Chandra probably played a key role in the telly dramaramas:rolleyes::biggrin:...also did not know her brother Teo Eng Seng was such a well regarded artist...

as for those 'Commies' who got rich...i always think of the late Dr. Sheng Nam Chin:rolleyes:...btw i gather Soh Lung's present take on the matter goes something like this:...will the old bully ever get a taste of hell?...i doubt it...he will live long and well and we'd better get on with our lives!...
 
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