Vincent Cheng: ISA victims must speak out

[silverfox@]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

I wouldn't go as far as to call Tan Wah Piow QC a coward, but it's glaringly obvious absconding from NS was his primary objective. What personal or political persecution? Go and ask which PAP son or Opposition son, who don't enlist for NS before tertiary education? Dr. Chee Soon Juan served until rank ASP (Major), Goh Meng Seng and Steve Chia served until rank Captain. They're still in Opposition. Dr. Chee getting into trouble has nothing to do with NS. What's QC Tan talking about using NS enlisment to deprive him of his political liberty, I don't understand. He backed out, shipped out, that's all.

To many, I think they are not bothered whether Tan Wah Piow did NS or escape from it.

 

[Kid278]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Go and ask which PAP son or Opposition son, who don't enlist for NS before tertiary education?

You've forgotten one, Dr Lee Siew Choh's son. He was jailed for refusing to enlist or do NS.

 

[Ramseth]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

You've forgotten one, Dr Lee Siew Choh's son. He was jailed for refusing to enlist or do NS.

Not only him. Quite a number of others, e.g. JW. Don't do 2-year NS, jail 3 years. But serve time in jail is fair enough to all those who serve NS. Running away is not, citing political reason is insulting other people's intelligence worse than PAP.

You think what? TWP come back to Singapore sure win election and form new government? I'll stake my head, he can't even win a GRC or SMC. PAP and LKY aren't afraid of him. He's afraid of them and ran away.

 

[Kid278]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

To many, I think they are not bothered whether Tan Wah Piow did NS or escape from it.

Tan Wah Piow knew his future in singapore is doomed and the old fart is going to fix him but what I'm curious about is how he managed to abscond and got asylum in UK.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Not only him. Quite a number of others, e.g. JW. Don't do 2-year NS, jail 3 years. But serve time in jail is fair enough to all those who serve NS. Running away is not, citing political reason is insulting other people's intelligence worse than PAP.

You are not doing a good comparison. For people like me has done our NS BEFORE we get involved in opposition politics. For people like Tan Wah Piao, he was a STUDENT ACTIVIST before he was supposed to be enlisted. Under the political climate back then, there was a clear fear of being tekan.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Kid278]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Not only him. Quite a number of others, e.g. JW. Don't do 2-year NS, jail 3 years. But serve time in jail is fair enough to all those who serve NS. Running away is not, citing political reason is insulting other people's intelligence worse than PAP.

You think what? TWP come back to Singapore sure win election and form new government? I'll stake my head, he can't even win a GRC or SMC. PAP and LKY aren't afraid of him. He's afraid of them and ran away.

I know where you are coming from but the fact that uni and poly students union members at that time were were rounded up does show signs of political persecution.

 

[Ramseth]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

You are not doing a good comparison. For people like me has done our NS BEFORE we get involved in opposition politics. For people like Tan Wah Piao, he was a STUDENT ACTIVIST before he was supposed to be enlisted. Under the political climate back then, there was a clear fear of being tekan.

Captain Goh Meng Seng, are you saying getting involved in politics, particularly opposition politics, before enlistment is ground for exemption?

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Captain Goh Meng Seng, are you saying getting involved in politics, particularly opposition politics, before enlistment is ground for exemption?

No, not exemption but I know people who have got involved in student activism during that period was BARRED from bearing arm during NS.\

Well, time has changed but we must look at things in proper context of the White Terror Era of 1970s.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Kid278]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Captain Goh Meng Seng, are you saying getting involved in politics, particularly opposition politics, before enlistment is ground for exemption?

You'll have queues and crowds taking that advantage.

 

[elephanto]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Dear Scroobal..... in such an exaggeration of a possible plot ? The late eighties has already seen the decline of communism, the diminishing of the threat in every form, and yet why did OLD Man and the ISD view it or take it so seriously ? They knew in 1987 , the weakened state of the CPM and its desire for some form of peace talks so why the building up of basically a non existent conspiracy ? Locke

Not by accident,Locke,

Old Man had the non-1st-choice Goh as 1DPM & in 1987, he was still PM.

LKY must be using this opportunity to :-
- check out his grip on power then vis-a-vis the new apprentices (they coalese around to appoint Goh as their leader, can LKY impose his experience & judgement on them ?

- LKY prevailed upon them & GCT decided to play safe & stick to LKY's interpretation of events. Shrewd move. Any dissent, the history of Spore's PMship may be very different.

- Younger Generation Leaders of that time circa 1987. Remember not all bought LKY's version of events - at least party discipline dictates you keep your own conscience private. But Dhana was to leave later because of this incident that gives him much disquiet - as revealed by Goh in recent years.

- Also, LKY was probably waxing lyrical (then he was younger & cockier) to the young political apprentices that his 50s/60s struggles have honed his instincts & the importance of pre-emptive paranoi. May be unjust but survival is all ..... LKY's political core belief.

Just my 2 cents worth

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

good insight Stanley...to me it wld appear that Harry was perhaps trying to clear the political decks for the 2nd Gen PM n his team before he stood down as PM...also the start of the ambiguous n dastardly OB markers crap...

1987 was actually not a "sterile" year. Singapore had slipped into recession in 1986 and we would be seeing the first of many Employer CPF cuts to make Singaporean workers more attractive. The FT policy had not been born and there was concern among top policy makers that perhaps Singapore would go into a period of slow GDP growth of 2-4%. The end of the age of "economic miracle" was a huge concern as it was one of the cornerstones of PAP political power.

The detention was therefore an attempt to put discussions about economics/social equity into the same category as discussion about race. The message they were trying to send is that if you were caught playing politics with economics, you can expect ISD to come lock you up.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

i think u r probably rt wrt the on-going tension thinggy amongst the group...Soh Lung's book seems to give off that impression to some extent at least...i was under the impression that Soh Lung did not reveal "K"'s true identity probably because of OSA conditions...she did the same when mentioning afew other ISD officers who dealt wif her during the material time...

btw i cant understand why Chew Kheng Chuan was re-detained along wif the ex-detainees who went public disavowing their previous ISD statements n telly performances since he was not a signatory neither did he appear to take part in any discussions leading up to the explosive press release...

Harry respected the hardcore Commies...came out once again in his 'seminal' interview wif Seth Mydans...n his so called mea culpa...

also note the States Times recently published an op-ed piece by some policy academic trying to balance the tide of recent alternative politico/social history...asserting that the Commies sld not be romanticised...

anyways...after all my reading n talking to pple wif personal knowledge wrt Spectrum...it is sadly n unfortunately clear that the "23" were probably collateral damage...

I have not read Teo's book. But I can guess who she is referring to. Teo must have chosen the letter arbitrarily as it has no intelligence. I should mention that there is on-going tension with some elements of the group over what was revealed to ISD and what was revealed to the group eventually. There is deep sense of victimisation on those who were detained longer when they had nothing to cough up. They could not cough up because they had literally done no wrong and could not name people that they did not meet.

Old man seemed to resent euro-communist, pseudo-communist and fireside communist. But he seem to admire the CPM hardcore that killed savagely. CPM that crossed were treated very well. None of the 22 detainees were allowed to join the ex-political detainees association because they were not subversive. Seems illogical and catches the govt flat-footed. So naturally not entitled to stipends, pensions, jobs for themselves and families.

 

[scroobal]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

My guess is the snub of one sovereign leader (Pope) of another (old man) in the latter's own soil helped shaped the issue. ISD has long stepped in by threat or intimidation to remove social agitators (note - not political agitators). Raja always felt that social agitation is the cause of most uprising. And he is right. Politics only comes in organise the unrest. It was the same with Anwar and Tan Wah Piow who first took part in the Tasek Utara event.

When ISD spoke to leather jack Ronnie, people seemed to be surprised as Ron is as political as the nice carpet in his office. But that has been ISD's bread and butter from day1.

If GCT was the PM, this cunning devil would have started to cancel the visas and work permits of those associated with the church to pressure them. Old man on the other is always looking for a fight.

Not by accident,Locke,

Old Man had the non-1st-choice Goh as 1DPM & in 1987, he was still PM.

LKY must be using this opportunity to :-
- check out his grip on power then vis-a-vis the new apprentices (they coalese around to appoint Goh as their leader, can LKY impose his experience & judgement on them ?

- LKY prevailed upon them & GCT decided to play safe & stick to LKY's interpretation of events. Shrewd move. Any dissent, the history of Spore's PMship may be very different.

- Younger Generation Leaders of that time circa 1987. Remember not all bought LKY's version of events - at least party discipline dictates you keep your own conscience private. But Dhana was to leave later because of this incident that gives him much disquiet - as revealed by Goh in recent years.

- Also, LKY was probably waxing lyrical (then he was younger & cockier) to the young political apprentices that his 50s/60s struggles have honed his instincts & the importance of pre-emptive paranoi. May be unjust but survival is all ..... LKY's political core belief.

Just my 2 cents worth

 

[scroobal]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Chew was detained because he organised the statement and arranged for it to be printed and distributed.

I am still keen to see someone from Govt sit Vincent down and someone of the others as well and explain how he and they ended up in this mess.

The hard core communist living on taxpayers funds and sending their kids overseas need to be exposed one day. I know one founding member of the PAP and part of the basement gang who refused to kowtow to the old man and was banished to Malaysia. The wife and kids however remained in Singapore. The son went to RI, went to OCS and is doing well but the family had to eke out a living and not suck on the taxpayers.

While our supposed heros that old man admires send their kids to London (high holy ground of capitalism) on state funds while they meet on a monthly basis reminiscing with their PAP mates about the good old days and how they ended up on the opposite side of the fence. When their kids return, amazingly they end up in GLCs.

i think u r probably rt wrt the on-going tension thinggy amongst the group...Soh Lung's book seems to give off that impression to some extent at least...i was under the impression that Soh Lung did not reveal "K"'s true identity probably because of OSA conditions...she did the same when mentioning afew other ISD officers who dealt wif her during the material time...

btw i cant understand why Chew Kheng Chuan was re-detained along wif the ex-detainees who went public disavowing their previous ISD statements n telly performances since he was not a signatory neither did he appear to take part in any discussions leading up to the explosive press release...

Harry respected the hardcore Commies...came out once again in his 'seminal' interview wif Seth Mydans...n his so called mea culpa...

also note the States Times recently published an op-ed piece by some policy academic trying to balance the tide of recent alternative politico/social history...asserting that the Commies sld not be romanticised...

anyways...after all my reading n talking to pple wif personal knowledge wrt Spectrum...it is sadly n unfortunately clear that the "23" were probably collateral damage...

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

Soh Lung (in her book) appeared surprised n shocked when Kheng Chuan was re-arrested n re-detained...furthermore i did not seem to get the impression(in Soh Lung's book) that Kheng Chuan was v much involved in the events behind the statement...

well we now hv Dominic Puthucheary laughing n smiling wif Harry...n Dom's doctor son now becoming a new generation MIW...nothing surprises me anymore

Chew was detained because he organised the statement and arranged for it to be printed and distributed.


While our supposed heros that old man admires send their kids to London (high holy ground of capitalism) on state funds while they meet on a monthly basis reminiscing with their PAP mates about the good old days and how they ended up on the opposite side of the fence. When their kids return, amazingly they end up in GLCs.

 

[scroobal]

Re: For a more in depth account of this sad sorry saga...

If Patrick Seong can be arrested for merely notifying the foreign press, they will definately go after Chew for his role on the torture statement.

Dom is hopeless and the son as well. The old man spoke disaparagingly of the 2 brothers but praised the the rest of communist lot as men of inner strengh and determination. Yet this clown turned for the book launch.

Soh Lung (in her book) appeared surprised n shocked when Kheng Chuan was re-arrested n re-detained...furthermore i did not seem to get the impression(in Soh Lung's book) that Kheng Chuan was v much involved in the events behind the statement...

well we now hv Dominic Puthucheary laughing n smiling wif Harry...n Dom's doctor son now becoming a new generation MIW...nothing surprises me anymore

 

[Robert Half]

You communist pigs are the ones who need to get a grip and realise that capitalism now rules. 66.6% of us agree

Don't anyhow insults people

 

[cass888]

Don't anyhow insults people

If people can use the term "pappy dog" and "poodle" what is wrong with calling the SDP etc apologists what they really are - communist pigs?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Teo Soh Lung:Beyond The Blue Gate

...I formed the conclusion that they had made a mistake when they arrested me and having discovered their error, they had released me after four months. That belief was completely shattered when one of my friends, who was also detained and released, told me that my arrest was planned and deliberate...

"They had not made a mistake. The government wanted to destroy the Worker's Party and control the Law Society. By arresting you, they had achieved their purpose. By arresting 22 people, they had destroyed a number of organisations and disheartened a number of people. It will take many years for all those organisations to rebuild themselves."

I had not grasped the reality of the situation till I heard what he said...

excerpt fm Teo Soh Lung's book "Beyond The Blue Gate"...

 

[scroobal]

Re: Teo Soh Lung:Beyond The Blue Gate

I don't think was such a plan. The Law society had long been muffled, its power crippled and the Law Academy created. The church and its liberation theology yes.

I am puzzled how she thought that the authorities made a mistake. There is also the possibility that ISD decided that the Church matter had been dealt with, they were now pursuing the communist angle having found that VC had met Wah Piow and the revelation of the secret messaging with the communist by those associated with the Tan Chay Wah rescue from the gallows attempt. Which is more sinister and more sexy and ISD's bread and butter.

Typical of secret police, having scared the monkeys, they were now pretending to be friends to their victims and keep them close to them.

...I formed the conclusion that they had made a mistake when they arrested me and having discovered their error, they had released me after four months. That belief was completely shattered when one of my friends, who was also detained and released, told me that my arrest was planned and deliberate...

excerpt fm Teo Soh Lung's book "Beyond The Blue Gate"...