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Tang Dynasty people did not speak Mandarin !
- Thread starter Extremist
- Start date
“要打就跟我打！来啊！”Think you are basing a lot on rather flimsy evidence. The Chinese does a lot of intermarriage between the provinces in the past thousands of years as clans and tribes migrate frequently due to war, famine and economic reasons. First time i heard that marriage between dialect groups is taboo. Maybe in your clan, but certainly not the case in most other families.
The best proof is in DNA mapping. There is a major project done globally, and it is shown that Han Chinese is a rather homogeneous group. The different dialect is just a reflection of province level sub cultures. Even the American red Indians is shown to be migrants of Chinese in ancient times.
The best proof is in DNA mapping. There is a major project done globally, and it is shown that Han Chinese is a rather homogeneous group. The different dialect is just a reflection of province level sub cultures. Even the American red Indians is shown to be migrants of Chinese in ancient times.
First, I didn't say inter-dialect group marriage was taboo. I said as recent as half a century ago, it was frowned upon. You are obviously too young to remember. I only said inter-racial marriage was taboo.
If you want to verify what I said, go to some villages in Guangdong. Go to the small towns and villages in the Chaoshan area in particular. Even today, some Teochews there do not like marrying non-Teochews. Of course, the younger generation are now more open. But I was talking about half a century ago.
Yes, there was obviously inter-marriage between the Nan Yue/Min Yue people with the Han Chinese immigrants. You don't need DNA to know this. Just look at the facial features of some Teochews and Hokkiens. Some have aboriginal look, e.g., flat nose with upturn nostrils, round eyes, etc. One example of a Teochew with a trace of aboriginal look is our TV actor Li NanXin. Compare him with another Teochew actor, Chew Chor Meng who has less aboriginal look. But in my opinion, inter-marriage between local tribes with the Han Chinese was not very widespread for reasons mentioned earlier.
Of course, the Han Chinese is not really a single ethnic group. Before Qin Shih Huang, there were a few kingdoms in the Central Plains of China. It is possible that there were a few ethnic groups at that time as it is known that there were different spoken and written Chinese languages - and Qin Shih Huang standardized the written Chinese script - but not the spoken language. Present day Minnan (Hokkien, Teochew, Hainanese) dialect group probably originated from one of the people in Central Plains. Some said that the ancestors of the Minnan people were from a place in Henan during the Jin dynasty (after the 3 Kingdoms). Some said that the Cantonese originated from the Qin people (Qin Shih Huang's country).
Even before Qin dynasty, the people in the Central Plains of China was much more advanced than people from other areas. Although they were not known as Han Ren then, they probably had a sense of common identity that they were a superior people. Before Qin, during the Xia, Shang, Zhou and Spring Autumn period, the Central Plains people already called all other people barbarians.
If you want to verify what I said, go to some villages in Guangdong. Go to the small towns and villages in the Chaoshan area in particular. Even today, some Teochews there do not like marrying non-Teochews. Of course, the younger generation are now more open. But I was talking about half a century ago.
Yes, there was obviously inter-marriage between the Nan Yue/Min Yue people with the Han Chinese immigrants. You don't need DNA to know this. Just look at the facial features of some Teochews and Hokkiens. Some have aboriginal look, e.g., flat nose with upturn nostrils, round eyes, etc. One example of a Teochew with a trace of aboriginal look is our TV actor Li NanXin. Compare him with another Teochew actor, Chew Chor Meng who has less aboriginal look. But in my opinion, inter-marriage between local tribes with the Han Chinese was not very widespread for reasons mentioned earlier.
Of course, the Han Chinese is not really a single ethnic group. Before Qin Shih Huang, there were a few kingdoms in the Central Plains of China. It is possible that there were a few ethnic groups at that time as it is known that there were different spoken and written Chinese languages - and Qin Shih Huang standardized the written Chinese script - but not the spoken language. Present day Minnan (Hokkien, Teochew, Hainanese) dialect group probably originated from one of the people in Central Plains. Some said that the ancestors of the Minnan people were from a place in Henan during the Jin dynasty (after the 3 Kingdoms). Some said that the Cantonese originated from the Qin people (Qin Shih Huang's country).
Even before Qin dynasty, the people in the Central Plains of China was much more advanced than people from other areas. Although they were not known as Han Ren then, they probably had a sense of common identity that they were a superior people. Before Qin, during the Xia, Shang, Zhou and Spring Autumn period, the Central Plains people already called all other people barbarians.
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Is there such a thing as a pure Han stock?
The Han Chinese is probably not a real ethnic group. I think there were probably a few ethic people living in the Central Plains of China in ancient times. And over time, this gave rise to a few kingdoms which were eventually unified by Qin Shih Huang. The people spoke slightly different languages, and had different written scripts - and Qin Shih Huang standardized the written script for his empire. So the Minnan (Teochew, Hokkien, Hainese), the Yue (Cantonese), the Wu (Shanghaiese), the Gan, the Xiang and Mandarin groups probably originated from the different ethnic groups in ancient China, pre-Qin. Even if they were different ethnic groups, I think in ancient times, they already shared a common identity (as having a superior culture) .
The Han Chinese is probably not a real ethnic group. I think there were probably a few ethic people living in the Central Plains of China in ancient times. And over time, this gave rise to a few kingdoms which were eventually unified by Qin Shih Huang. The people spoke slightly different languages, and had different written scripts - and Qin Shih Huang standardized the written script for his empire. So the Minnan (Teochew, Hokkien, Hainese), the Yue (Cantonese), the Wu (Shanghaiese), the Gan, the Xiang and Mandarin groups probably originated from the different ethnic groups in ancient China, pre-Qin. Even if they were different ethnic groups, I think in ancient times, they already shared a common identity (as having a superior culture) .
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Thailand has so many Teochews today because Teochews started emigrating to Thailand a few hundred years ago. They did very well and brought more of their relatives over. In fact, the only Thai King with Chinese heritage was from Shantou (Teochew area in China) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taksin. The richest man in Thailand today is also a Teochew: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhanin_Chearavanont
. The founder of the Bank of Bangkok was also a Teochew: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Sophonpanich
A video of another successful Teochew in Thailand:
http://bbs.chaoshanren.com/thread-632412-1-1.html
. The founder of the Bank of Bangkok was also a Teochew: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chin_Sophonpanich
A video of another successful Teochew in Thailand:
http://bbs.chaoshanren.com/thread-632412-1-1.html
Your theory that the Hokkiens, Teochews and Cantonese are actually sinicised ancient Min/Yue tribes is possible if there are no aboriginal tribes in Guangdong and Fujian today. But there are still aboriginal people in some parts of Guangdong and Fujian today. Why these aboriginal people didn't get sinicised after all these years?
What actually happened could be that the Han Chinese arrived in Guangdong and Fujian in numbers so large that they didn't really need to mingle with the locals to survive. Rather it was the locals who needed to mingle with the Han Chinese to improve their standard of living. And because the Han Chinese greatly outnumbered the locals, the inter-marriage with the locals only resulted in the locals being absorbed into the Han "race".
So the Hokkiens, Teochews and Cantonese might not be like the ethnic minorities in China today who lost their own culture.
As you said "you can't tell them apart from Chinese looks" - that means there is more Chinese blood in them than their own ethnic blood.
What actually happened could be that the Han Chinese arrived in Guangdong and Fujian in numbers so large that they didn't really need to mingle with the locals to survive. Rather it was the locals who needed to mingle with the Han Chinese to improve their standard of living. And because the Han Chinese greatly outnumbered the locals, the inter-marriage with the locals only resulted in the locals being absorbed into the Han "race".
So the Hokkiens, Teochews and Cantonese might not be like the ethnic minorities in China today who lost their own culture.
As you said "you can't tell them apart from Chinese looks" - that means there is more Chinese blood in them than their own ethnic blood.
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Were the orang aslis assimilated with the malays? Yes, but you will still find aslis in Malaysia today.
Just because there are aboriginals does not mean there was no sinocism. It can come in the form of intermarriages, slavery, integration thru inter mixing.
Most Manchurians live just like any Han nowadays and don't know their language. There are still pockets of Manchurians too speaking manchurian.
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Okay, you are right that the existence of aboriginal people does not mean much.
But my point is that the Han Chinese were the majority when they arrived in Southern China, and the Min/Yue tribes were assimilated into the Han "race". Even without going into DNA, this is obvious from the looks of the Hokkiens, Teochews and Cantonese as compared to the aboriginal people. That is, modern day Southern Chinese have more "Chinese" blood than aboriginal blood. They are not sinicised Min/Yue aborigines. Rather they are Chinese with some aboriginal blood.
Everybody keeps saying that the Northern Chinese are taller and bigger than the Southern Chinese and look very different. But I still find that the Northern Chinese are only slightly taller than the Southern Chinese. By Northern Chinese, I mean Beijing natives, etc., and not people from Dong Bei. The Dong Bei people are tall (girls especially) but many of them actually have some Manchu or Mongol blood or are in fact Manchus. I also find the difference in looks between Northern and Southern Chinese to be very small as compared to between Chinese and aboriginal people.
Although the Han Chinese may not be a real distinct ethnic group, the different dialect groups that made up the Han Chinese today were "united" culturally a few thousand years ago (even before the political unification by Qin Shih Huang) and they are distinctly different from aboriginal tribes like the ancient Yue/Min people.
But my point is that the Han Chinese were the majority when they arrived in Southern China, and the Min/Yue tribes were assimilated into the Han "race". Even without going into DNA, this is obvious from the looks of the Hokkiens, Teochews and Cantonese as compared to the aboriginal people. That is, modern day Southern Chinese have more "Chinese" blood than aboriginal blood. They are not sinicised Min/Yue aborigines. Rather they are Chinese with some aboriginal blood.
Everybody keeps saying that the Northern Chinese are taller and bigger than the Southern Chinese and look very different. But I still find that the Northern Chinese are only slightly taller than the Southern Chinese. By Northern Chinese, I mean Beijing natives, etc., and not people from Dong Bei. The Dong Bei people are tall (girls especially) but many of them actually have some Manchu or Mongol blood or are in fact Manchus. I also find the difference in looks between Northern and Southern Chinese to be very small as compared to between Chinese and aboriginal people.
Although the Han Chinese may not be a real distinct ethnic group, the different dialect groups that made up the Han Chinese today were "united" culturally a few thousand years ago (even before the political unification by Qin Shih Huang) and they are distinctly different from aboriginal tribes like the ancient Yue/Min people.
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Both my parents are from different dialect groups, and so are my parent in laws. The same situation is very common across Singapore and Malaysia. Inter-dialect marriages is not frowned upon, at least since WW2 when arranged marriage was no longer practiced.
The Han Chinese is more or less homogeneous and a single ethnic group. This has been proven with DNA mapping done in recent years. There are other smaller ethnic groups in Tibet, Yunnan, Xinjiang etc. I don't think the folks in Guangdong and Fujian are distinct from Han Chinese, as I have also seen guys with "aboriginal looks" all over China. It has more to do with family traits then the ethnic group. Again, DNA mapping is only conclusive proof, we can only guess.
I think the story on Cantonese being direct and pure decedents of Qin is probably a modern day myth concocted by Cantonese to self glorify and maintain their sub-culture.
The physical differences of Han chinese may also be due to diet, environment and selection. The northern chinese tend to have more to eat and they may value height more in marriage decisions due to frequent wars with Mongols. The colder weather also mean that they are covered up fully most of the time, hence paler skin tone.
On the other hand, the southern chinese live in warmer environment, and farming is main activity. Hence people tend to have darker complexion and height is not as important. The higher population density also means that each family has less to eat and they do not need to fatten up for winter.
However, variations in how each group of Han chinese evolve due to environment does not mean that they are of different origin. You look at dogs of different breeds. You will be amazed how fast the dog breeders can evolve an entirely different breed by selection process over just a few generations.
Yes, you are right about the effects of environment.
That's why in spite of the difference in looks, I think both Southern and Northern Chinese originated from the same closely related ancient ethnic groups living in Central Plains of China.
However, many people here are of the opinion that the southern Chinese like Hokkiens, Teochews and Cantonese are actually sinicised ancient Yue/Min aboriginal people, when the fact is they are Chinese with some aboriginal blood (through inter marriage which was probably not very common).
That's why in spite of the difference in looks, I think both Southern and Northern Chinese originated from the same closely related ancient ethnic groups living in Central Plains of China.
However, many people here are of the opinion that the southern Chinese like Hokkiens, Teochews and Cantonese are actually sinicised ancient Yue/Min aboriginal people, when the fact is they are Chinese with some aboriginal blood (through inter marriage which was probably not very common).
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ADAM come from Greek which means North South East West.
If translate into Chinese Adam is know as tong nan si pei.
Eve come from Hava in Greek also.
If translate into Chinese Adam is know as tong nan si pei.
Eve come from Hava in Greek also.
the teochew like to 'chak' at people.
Most teochew arse holes like to talk down at others using 'chak' at conversation.
Most teochew arse holes like to talk down at others using 'chak' at conversation.
i am glad i not the only one having the same view. 孫大炮 maybe a good activist but he a lousy leader. non of his revolution uprising succeed. he got lucky when the qing army unit revolted at wuhan which has nothing to do with sun led revolution.
quoted from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yap_Ah_Loy
When the Selangor Civil War broke out in 1870, Yap Ah Loy was faced with internecine fighting among dissident Chinese groups as well as attacks from Malay factions. The two largest Chinese gangsters, the Hakka-dominated Hai San and the Hokkien-dominated Ghee Hin, frequently engaged in warfare to gain control of tin production in the town.[1] The incessant warfare between the two factions brought tin mine production to a standstill.[2] Hiew Siew, the owner of a mine in Lukut, was elected as the first Kapitan.
Yap's decisive victory at Kuala Lumpur in 1873 proved to be the turning point in the war and left him in a strong political position. Until 1879 he was almost supreme in the interior of the state. As the acknowledged leader of the Chinese community he had been given the powers of a Malay ruling chief by the British except for the right to tax, a restriction he easily evaded.
He achieved a striking post-war recovery in the mining industry and established Kuala Lumpur as the economic centre of the peninsula. Through his control of the tin market, his ownership of local "farms" (monopolies on the sale of items such as opium and exclusive control of activities such as gambling, prostitution, racketeering and loan sharking), and his diverse business interests, he amassed a considerable personal fortune.
he surely a MODEL hakka pioneer.
Ok, this is new and interesting. Do you have keywords for me to search for more info on what you say?
The original inhabitants of South China are the Bai Yue (Hundred Yue) people, a diverse group consisting of different clans and tribes. Wave after wave of Han Chinese settlers who arrived did not displace the native Yue tribes and in fact they live harmonously together. There were alot of intermixing among the two groups over the centuries and soon after the superior Han Chinese culture & speech was embraced by everyone. Remnant of the Yue tribes who failed to assimilate with the Han Chinese moved up to live in the hilly regions and are today making up the ethnic minorities of South China - Dai, Miao, Zhaung .. etc. The Southern Chinese therefore are not of pure Han stock but with traces of Yue bloodlines in their makeup.
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