Singaporeans leaving Singapore: Are we the "villians"?

[QXD]

http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?t=49386

Guess by now you guys must have read the above thread and seen the video.

During the roundtable discussion, it was mentioned that 6000+ Singaporeans leave Singapore every year, however, in the time since the last elections, SG's population has boomed from 4 to topping 5 mil recently.

That's approximately 250,000 new migrants INTO SG vs 6000 leaving SG. A ratio of 42:1.

What makes me sick in the gut then is:

1) Does it take 42 heads to make up the loss of one Singaporean. Surely the reproductive potential cannot be 42 children per woman in SG....

2) 6000 migrants leaving every year. If we break that demographic further, how many "True Blue" Singaporeans are leaving vs those who become Singaporeans out of convenience and jump ship to their final migration destination?

3) Migrants as a cheaper source of labor: Why are we spoonfeeding SME businesses in Singapore when this could only lead to the unwillingness of SMEs to expand their horizons, venture into unknown waters and compete in the international arena? Do SMEs really need to rely on near slave-labor to be profitable in Singapore such that there is no motivation to move up the value chain?

 

[axe168]

http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?t=49386

Guess by now you guys must have read the above thread and seen the video.

During the roundtable discussion, it was mentioned that 6000+ Singaporeans leave Singapore every year, however, in the time since the last elections, SG's population has boomed from 4 to topping 5 mil recently.

That's approximately 250,000 new migrants INTO SG vs 6000 leaving SG. A ratio of 42:1.

What makes me sick in the gut then is:

1) Does it take 42 heads to make up the loss of one Singaporean. Surely the reproductive potential cannot be 42 children per woman in SG....

2) 6000 migrants leaving every year. If we break that demographic further, how many "True Blue" Singaporeans are leaving vs those who become Singaporeans out of convenience and jump ship to their final migration destination?

3) Migrants as a cheaper source of labor: Why are we spoonfeeding SME businesses in Singapore when this could only lead to the unwillingness of SMEs to expand their horizons, venture into unknown waters and compete in the international arena? Do SMEs really need to rely on near slave-labor to be profitable in Singapore such that there is no motivation to move up the value chain?

Please do not despair.. leave the enclosed place if you need to In SG, there is no longer Singapore-Singaporean... we have heaps of policies to protect the migrants yet very limited laws to protect our fellow countrymen, this is unique in the 1st world.

In the single party empire, this is what you get.. Big daddy knows what's best for you. They can make mistakes (but not you). They can have conflicts of interest.. (but not you)

The [COLOR="_______"]Singapore Pie[/COLOR] is not for you and I to enjoy.. not even our singaporean old unclez and aunties who fought alongside with LKY.. it goes to mm, ministars and migrants... it is sad, but this is the fact.

Char Kway Tiao or Chicken Rice is no longer important... Run... Jump.... or Swim to a land where you can call home...

 

[QXD]

to a land where you can call home...

Yes, I already got my two flags sticking out of my car, ready for the 26th...

But I do have to say that I feel like a child adopted at a late age; Australia has given me a lot to be grateful for, but the emotional bitterness towards having to leave Singapore on the basis of cold, calculative pragmatism still lingers.

As for the "villains" who acquire SG citizenship and then jump ship to their final destination, I personally know of four Chinamen...one of which I still keep in contact with

 

[axe168]

Haha, juz had a kopi with my frz.. he suggested to buy a flag for 26th.. i will do that.. since my new country has given me hope

Errr.. maybe I'll hang both flags.. to please my wife, heehee..

Yes, I already got my two flags sticking out of my car, ready for the 26th...

But I do have to say that I feel like a child adopted at a late age; Australia has given me a lot to be grateful for, but the emotional bitterness towards having to leave Singapore on the basis of cold, calculative pragmatism still lingers.

As for the "villains" who acquire SG citizenship and then jump ship to their final destination, I personally know of four Chinamen...one of which I still keep in contact with

 

[QXD]

I sometimes catch myself mid-sentence commenting on the sorry state of Singapore government's indiscriminate migration policies leading to an influx of migrants into SG with my Oz mates...luckily most of them are first generation migrants themselves...

:o

 

[scroobal]

Its obvious that the policy is purely to keep the GDP growth high. Everything else is secondary. Productivity has suffered.

I am surprised that the Ang Mo lady is talking about Singapore's aspiration which is not in sync with Singaporeans. Why would Singaporeans aspire to be ranked in any worldwide corporate ranking if their jobs are insecure or that are unemployed.

Really feel sorry for Singaporeans.

 

[QXD]

She is the typical yankee bullshitter that deflects questions and reframes them to what they think will score points with the side their bread is buttered.

Very dissapointed Fauzia Ibrahim didn't probe any deeper.

 

[tanwahtiu]

Singaporeans leaving are those seeking employment, not enterprenuers type. The more these type of people leaving the better it is.

 

[QXD]

Any source to back up your statement?

 

[chewed]

http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?t=49386

Guess by now you guys must have read the above thread and seen the video.

During the roundtable discussion, it was mentioned that 6000+ Singaporeans leave Singapore every year, however, in the time since the last elections, SG's population has boomed from 4 to topping 5 mil recently.

That's approximately 250,000 new migrants INTO SG vs 6000 leaving SG. A ratio of 42:1.

What makes me sick in the gut then is:

1) Does it take 42 heads to make up the loss of one Singaporean. Surely the reproductive potential cannot be 42 children per woman in SG....

2) 6000 migrants leaving every year. If we break that demographic further, how many "True Blue" Singaporeans are leaving vs those who become Singaporeans out of convenience and jump ship to their final migration destination?

3) Migrants as a cheaper source of labor: Why are we spoonfeeding SME businesses in Singapore when this could only lead to the unwillingness of SMEs to expand their horizons, venture into unknown waters and compete in the international arena? Do SMEs really need to rely on near slave-labor to be profitable in Singapore such that there is no motivation to move up the value chain?

i think you got it wrong. It is the whole SG society that is addicted to cheap labour.

IN fact, i 'm all for minimum wage, raise it so that a local chap can earn a decent income for his family, instead of the pitiful $600 a month that is being offered.

But with minimum income that will also means that your chicken rice and wanton noodle is $7.50 a plate. Can you handle it?

 

[scroobal]

Agree with you. I too am for minimum wage. There will be short term pains and structural unemployment but society will be all the better for it. Dependency on maids, too many workers etc will be reduced etc. Employers will start investing on existing workers to increase productivity.

Pointless having $3 chicken rice when you can't afford to buy a hdb flat or don't have job after 40 years of age.

i think you got it wrong. It is the whole SG society that is addicted to cheap labour.

IN fact, i 'm all for minimum wage, raise it so that a local chap can earn a decent income for his family, instead of the pitiful $600 a month that is being offered.

But with minimum income that will also means that your chicken rice and wanton noodle is $7.50 a plate. Can you handle it?

 

[chewed]

facts for all to ponder:

foreign workers levy is abt $150-$200 a month. How many of PRC, Indian, bangla foreign workers in SG?

The number that keep floating around is 500K.

so MOM's foreign workers levy every month they collect is at least 75 million.

Foreign Domestic Worker's (aka miads) levt is what, $250 a month?

there are easily 100,000 maids here in SG, that's another cool 25 million a month that MOM collects.

All in all MOM collects at least 100 million a month from us for the foreign workers & maids. Good money.

Less foreign workers? go figure.

 

[scroobal]

Just raise it and people will have to trim the number of workers and be more productive. In the case of maid, they might have to be more selective. The levy was originally designed to control demand in the first place.

The coffers might be impacted but just the same, the outlay to handle these folks will also be reduced.

facts for all to ponder:

foreign workers levy is abt $150-$200 a month. How many of PRC, Indian, bangla foreign workers in SG?

Less foreign workers? go figure.

 

[neddy]

Singaporeans leaving are those seeking employment, not enterprenuers type. The more these type of people leaving the better it is.

Who cares if the migrated cat is black or white, so long as it catches the rats in the adopted country, it is a good cat.

We need more employees to replace aging researchers, accountants, carpenters, etc

 

[Ash007]

I agree with all this talk about productivity and having a minimum wage. What I see that is wrong with Singapore is that most people have no idea what increased in productivity actually means, including the ruling party. "Cheaper, Better, Faster" are just moniker that are thrown around without any real thoughts on productivity. It just means you have to work longer and be paid cheaper in Singapore. I personally feel in a knowledge economy, which Singapore tries to aspire to, getting paid more with better quality of life doesn't mean you have to suffer in a badly construed work/social environment. On a personal work example, I was very surprised that we actually got a project being transfered over from India, I always thought India is the ultimate personification in IT for "Cheaper, Better, Faster". Turns out, "Productivity" as measured by the company wasn't on par and they would rather paid more to the local department to handle the project. Lesser developers which have proven to be just as productive in the long run.

I've digressed a little here and will get back to the main point with another personal experience. Before I left, I've had colleagues/friends that felt that leaving the country is akin to "betrayal". They would say, if you feel so strongly against the government, why don't you stay and fight, instead of being a "coward" and run to Australia. Yes, we can stay and "fight", but how many people actually wants to do that? People that says "fight" are very naive in my regards. Most people just wanted to live a decent, normal life, where there is hope for a better future. Leaving, just means you know what you want, and you are willing to "fight" for a better tomorrow. Be it in this country or the next.

So in a way I'm saying no to your question. We are not "villains", the country has been doing things that are sub-par for a very long time and most of us realized that. We are choosing another path where we can be more "productive" in our lives.

 

[littlefish]

I've digressed a little here and will get back to the main point with another personal experience. Before I left, I've had colleagues/friends that felt that leaving the country is akin to "betrayal". They would say, if you feel so strongly against the government, why don't you stay and fight, instead of being a "coward" and run to Australia. Yes, we can stay and "fight", but how many people actually wants to do that? People that says "fight" are very naive in my regards. Most people just wanted to live a decent, normal life, where there is hope for a better future. Leaving, just means you know what you want, and you are willing to "fight" for a better tomorrow. Be it in this country or the next.

So in a way I'm saying no to your question. We are not "villains", the country has been doing things that are sub-par for a very long time and most of us realized that. We are choosing another path where we can be more "productive" in our lives.

There is no point fighting when most of the people approve of the PAP. The PAP is so dominant because they understand the hordes of Singaporeans who will do anything to save a few cents, never mind looking after your fellow citizens first. Just look at those willing to go over to Malaysia to save a few bucks on car washing when they do not mind paying tens of thousands for their cars.

I realised that there is no point fighting when most of the people have never lived in a developed country for some time. They have only gone on tours to these countries and they tend to compare the flaws they see with the comforts of home. They are unable to comprehend the realities of living in a much larger country. Singaporeans are the most risk-averse bunch of people I have ever known. They will never venture out unless they know that they have a cushy job waiting in the new country and a red carpet rolled out for them. I know this because I have this same mentality previously. Whenever I tell people I live in an angmoh country, they will tell me they do not want to be second-class citizens and that because they had an encounter with a racist prick in this country, they are afraid to step foot in the country again. They can tell me all these fears despite never living in the country for at least a few months. Have they ever thought that maybe the people are "racists" because they want to protect their own kind? Just because you are willing to sell out your own people does not mean others should follow you.

Well, all I can say to them is welcome to the real world where there is no PAP to control your lives. It is impossible to change their minds by arguing with them. I guess these people are best suited to remain in SG, otherwise the experience may just kill them. Unfortunately for them, PAP is bringing the world to them whether they like it or not. Perhaps it will take a momentous event like China taking over control of HK to see a mass exodus. I do not mind them wanting to live in Singapore for the rest of their lives but I just can't stand it when they keep telling me their bad experiences with such and such countries when all they have ever done in those countries were being tourists.

As a side issue, look at this article here. In the article, SG applications for the work visas were not among the highest but the failure rate of the SG applicants in landing a job with the visas is the second highest. Seems quite disproportionate to me and I wonder what is the reason for this. Of course, the economic downturn would be a factor but this factor would have applied equally to everyone else, so why are SG applicants over-represented in the failure rates?

 

[Ash007]

Thanks for your link, its very interesting that Singaporean seem to be over represented in the scheme. I agree fully with Singaporean having a very "sheltered" life in Singapore and can hardly have the experience or insight in staying overseas. I have a colleague here, Malaysian but worked in Singapore all his life, 10 years at least I believe, before coming here, so lets just say he has been "sinkiefied". He is one of those risk adverse people you mentioned that won't move unless he was offered a job here. He got his job here before moving over. Me on the other hand, actually found this job after I arrived here. I joined after about a month later then him. A few months later, he was complaining how things here are so different then back home. How he can't do things here where things can be done back home. How the managements are bad and made bad decision etc etc. He was actually contemplating leaving. Citing that he could easily find a job back home, start a new business in Singapore. This was during the time when the GFC hits, I told him how things are getting bad back in Singapore, how things may appear different here but could make sense in a while, but he was adamant that he could "do better" going back. Surprise, surprise, he is still working here. Singaporean are always deluded that they know best, that PAPee, LKY, government knows what they are doing. Just because its different, its wrong, it won't work. I actually have to fix a couple of bugs on a project he worked on recently. Was also kind of pissed when he started sending me email telling me to correct my work phone number as it keeps routing to him, there was mistake in companies database, it was corrected in it over a year ago, but occasionally people still call the old number. Its a simple thing that he could have handled it without creating such a big fuss. If he wasn't offered a job before hand, I suppose he would be one of the failures you see in the statistics. Yup, no point in fighting, thats why when people mention Australia is racist, you are a "traitor" if you move, I knew there is nothing I can say to change their minds, just keep quiet, smile and ignore them when you see them the next time.

There is no point fighting when most of the people approve of the PAP. ......

As a side issue, look at this article here. In the article, SG applications for the work visas were not among the highest but the failure rate of the SG applicants in landing a job with the visas is the second highest. Seems quite disproportionate to me and I wonder what is the reason for this. Of course, the economic downturn would be a factor but this factor would have applied equally to everyone else, so why are SG applicants over-represented in the failure rates?

 

[chewed]

"On a personal work example, I was very surprised that we actually got a project being transfered over from India, I always thought India is the ultimate personification in IT for "Cheaper, Better, Faster". Turns out, "Productivity" as measured by the company wasn't on par and they would rather paid more to the local department to handle the project. Lesser developers which have proven to be just as productive in the long run."

i think you will see more of that happening. Folks round the whole world have realised India is nothing but hot air. IN fact the bank that my friend is working in is slowly retrenching those from India cos they realised the productivty level just sucks. And they have to do it quietly in the name of restructuring as to avoid being labelled racist.

 

[scroobal]

One's eyes begin to open when you come to know that the children of many members of the ruling party and the senior ranks of the civil service are living and working abroad. These are never reported or revealed in the press. You begin to question the concepts of nationality and loyalty when you realise that many are having dual citizenship or have PR status. Then you discover that these kids are given employment in overseas companies purchased by Temasek and GIC.

Its goes to show that people are playing in the global pond and happily claiming loyal Singaporeans.

The world is everyone's oyster, just make the best of it.

So in a way I'm saying no to your question. We are not "villains", the country has been doing things that are sub-par for a very long time and most of us realized that. We are choosing another path where we can be more "productive" in our lives.

Whenever I tell people I live in an angmoh country, they will tell me they do not want to be second-class citizens and that because they had an encounter with a racist prick in this country, they are afraid to step foot in the country again.

 

[scroobal]

There are 3 countries that fall in this boat - India, Philippines and China. The bubble burst around 2000 when qualifications and quality of work was found to be suspect. It has been a painful lesson for the world to learn that cheap is not after all good. US employers began canceling their work visas of these chaps based on cancellation of projects / workload rather than the contentious grounds of performance.

These same people began surfacing from 2003 in Singapore and getting employed because of their US employment and Singapore liberal stand on FTs. Because of their parochial habits, friends and relatives are also brought in. Really a sad story.

I was very surprised that we actually got a project being transfered over from India, I always thought India is the ultimate personification in IT for "Cheaper, Better, Faster". Turns out, "Productivity" as measured by the company wasn't on par and they would rather paid more to the local department to handle the project. .

i think you will see more of that happening. Folks round the whole world have realised India is nothing but hot air. IN fact the bank that my friend is working in is slowly retrenching those from India cos they realised the productivty level just sucks. And they have to do it quietly in the name of restructuring as to avoid being labelled racist.