R.I.P. Lim Hock Siew

[maozedong]

A lot of posters here said the old man is evil. But I don't think he is absolutely evil. LKY can be cruel but he isn't unreasonable.

LKY did offer all these political detainees a way out after a couple of years of detention (as for Dr Lim, I'm not sure how long he was held before offered for early release): officially denounce your political ideology and stay out of politics, and you will be released. Yes, this is unfair and an affront to the rule of the law. BUT LKY is not all out to incarcerate you for life. He only wants you to be out of his way. If you don't oppose him, he will let you off.

As much as I respect people with strong convictions and principles like Dr Lim, I think he should have accepted the conditions for his early release. Although Singapore had a lot of poor people in the 60's and 70's, it is not as if there were mass starvation, rampant corruption or mass torture. If there were, then Dr Lim's fight was justified and his sacrifice noble. But that's not what he was fighting for. He's fighting for his own ideal of society, and yes, a more just and democratic society. Sure, all these are noble ideals, but were Singaporeans starving then, and did they care much about these ideals? Dr Lim was trying to help Singaporeans who didn't want his help because Singaporeans wanted wealth instead of democracy.

IMHO, Dr Lim should have accepted the condition of staying out of politics for an early release. He could then migrate to another country like the former GM of Nanyang San Pau and live a much more productive life, contributing to his new community and to humanity. He could join meaningful causes like Amnesty International, etc. Nationalism is passe now. In the global world, we are global citizens.

Yes,that would happen to the families of political detainees who do not cooperate with the old devil.He made it very clear to the rest.

 

[Kinana]

Thinking aloud.Just thinking aloud.

After seeing how JBJ second son and Devan Nair's first son congenital behaviors towards the old man despite their fathers having suffered greatly under the old devil---I came to the following conclusion.

Somehow,this old fox deals differently with the families whose fathers he destroys.Perhaps preempting a generation of blood feud....which will follow after his death.

Perhaps,just maybe ---the old fox could have cut a deal with Lim's wife.Perhaps with Lim's knowledge perhaps not.

The point being,had you or anyone's in Lim's shoes would not want to see their children's future destroyed for the sake of their idealism.Hence,it's very possible that LKY would have told Lim,JBJ and Devan's family...that he would not touch them and in return just leave their old men to their destiny.

Let me tell you the reality of family's life in politics.If you are in politics and bringing in fame and fortunes you family would celebrate you.But if politicking alone brings them misfortunes and poverty;many including your own wify and children would want to distance themselves.In fact,many do.The very reason why I admire the Chee family.

What if Lim's wife did not share his idealism....and yet not want to divorce him?

Do you think any father would want to come between the comfort of their families for the sake of their political belifs?

.

Old Lee is truly a great man.

 

[Nice-Gook]

A lot of posters here said the old man is evil. But I don't think he is absolutely evil. LKY can be cruel but he isn't unreasonable.

A non sequitur.

Almost every tyrant in history had his softer side.A pet lover,adores children,vegetarian and so on.That does not mitigate the colossal damage done to human kind.

“But we either believe in democracy or we not. If we do, then, we must say categorically, without qualification, that no restraint from the any democratic processes, other than by the ordinary law of the land, should be allowed… If you believe in democracy, you must believe in it unconditionally. If you believe that men should be free, then, they should have the right of free association, of free speech, of free publication. Then, no law should permit those democratic processes to be set at nought.”
- Lee Kuan Yew as an opposition leader, April 27, 1955

LKY did offer all these political detainees a way out after a couple of years of detention (as for Dr Lim, I'm not sure how long he was held before offered for early release): officially denounce your political ideology and stay out of politics, and you will be released. Yes, this is unfair and an affront to the rule of the law. BUT LKY is not all out to incarcerate you for life. He only wants you to be out of his way. If you don't oppose him, he will let you off.

That's very mildly putting isn't it?.....by that logic even the PRC Ferrari driver simply wanted every one off his way right?All he wanted was to show off to his girl friend;if only the taxi driver kept the way out of his har?

“I make no apologies that the PAP is the Government and the Government is the PAP.”
- Lee Kuan Yew, Petir, 1982

If there were, then Dr Lim's fight was justified and his sacrifice noble. But that's not what he was fighting for. He's fighting for his own ideal of society, and yes, a more just and democratic society. Sure, all these are noble ideals, but were Singaporeans starving then, and did they care much about these ideals? Dr Lim was trying to help Singaporeans who didn't want his help because Singaporeans wanted wealth instead of democracy.

Honestly,I don't know what Dr.Lim was fighting for.Neither I could figure out what is LKY's ideals these days.

But one thing I am sure.I shall fight for their rights to say so and campaign accordingly.Let the voters decide.

“If you are a troublemaker…it’s our job to politically destroy you. Put it this way. As long as JB Jeyaretnam stands for what he stands for – a thoroughly destructive force – we will knock him. Everybody knows that in my bag I have a hatchet, and a very sharp one. You take me on, I take my hatchet, we meet in the cul-de-sac.”
- Lee Kuan Yew, The Man And His Ideas, 1997

 

[Nice-Gook]

I am simply aghast at the mere suggestion that LKY was being reasonable since he did not persecute some of the political detainees family members.

Such thoughts should never cross anyone's mind in the first place.

If LKY indeed spared some political detainees or political opponents family members,in return for their cooperation, than it simply tantamount to blackmailing.Holding such families hostage emotionally.

If LKY was kinder to say JBJ second son than he is effectively interfering into their internal family affairs.Setting a son against his own father for his father's political belief.If this is what is LKY is capable of than many fathers would fear entering the political arena since the price is a family torn apart.This is in addition to the numbers of years behind bars without a trial.

It pains me to see that sons and wives of political detainees who actually believed that LKY was benevolent despite their father's' misadventures'.

In short,LKY would than have succeeded divorcing his political opponent's family unity.A deep rift of sort.Many of which the public may never know and hurts the political detainees deeper than the prison terms.

It's really an underhand method.Hitting a political opponent below his belt.

 

[Cruxx]

It's lamentable how few Sinkies know what democracy is about. Sheep actually believe that democracy only pertains to the freedom to vote and the freedom to chant slogans in the streets. :(

 

[deepblue0911]

PAP is so generous. They really do care, even for enemies of the state.

Political enemy. Enemy of the state is a strong word. Too strong.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

LHS was a communist! It is as simple as that. All this scum could have done was to admit to it and then tell everyone all the stories that LKY was involved in. But no! This communist scum wanted to play the victim so that he can be lauded for his unknown crimes to be a fighter for democracy. This scum cheebye wasn't fighting for democracy! He was fighting for independnce but using communists help.

Imagine that you have been detained for 20 years and when you are released you do not tell all the stories even to implicate those that were at fault? What kind of a foolish coward is he?

LHS is going to hell for those that he helped to destroy and for those that he refused to help. He can cry victim but someday, history will show that he was a bigger coward than LKY. LKY is a coward because he has much to loose. LHS was a coward because he had nothing to loose. WHo is the bigger coward?

They are all scums. Unfortunately for Singapore, when we gained independence, we did so with the most horrible group of opportunists and backstabbers ever to be assembled as a small group. This is the sad truth when you have people without conviction but people after power and then later going for wealth.

LHS can rot in hell and good riddance too!

 

[kingrant]

During that time, sympathising with the Communist cause was a noble thing in resisiting the Japanese armies and fighting rearguard the corrupt KMT. It was easy to be labelled or branded a Communist by rivals who were out to do you in. LHS may or may not be a card carrying Communist but he was branded as one and rounded up uinder Op Cold store. Op cold store was a dirty trick staged by LKY to rid himself of his rivals like LHS, using the pretext of Merger and malaysia, and to clear the decks for his 1963 GE.

LHS was outflanked,outmanouvred and outsmarted by LKY with his incumbent advantage. After the split, the BS should have executed the coup de grace altho it was probably very difficult with the British and Tengku on LKY's side, not so much becos they loved him but becos he was the lesser of two evils and the known constant.

So in way, if you have lost, then there's nothing to say, after all 20 years cant be retrieved. To say more is just to admit that in this game of high stakes, you did not measure up. LKY is a formidable enemy, and LHS and co. would probably have done the same to him if he had emerged victorious. So it's not impt if LHS was or was not a commie. I dont think LHS destroyed anybody by keeping quiet - 20 years being put away is no mean feat.

 

[Nice-Gook]

LHS was a communist! It is as simple as that. !

Was he?

That is a genuine question without malice.No! I am not saying he is not a scum.For I had my doubts about David Marshall including JBJ entry into politics.....that is not the issue here.

What makes you think he is a communist.Most importantly a communist who played ball with LKY.You would do yourself no less justice if you hide that fact which we are not privy to.

Now,I had done a little bit of search on this matter;though admittedly very little.

In October last year, the government finally disclosed the numbers detained – well, not entirely. “More than 800 people were arrested under the ISA in the 1970s "..Wohweee,what a number!

Barisan Socialis was not a subversive communist front organist maintained Dr.Lim.And further claimed had no intention of joining with the communists to instigate violence and disorder, contrary to what were stated as reasons for the arrests. (Recently declassified British and Australian intelligence files support Dr Lim’s statement.) That meant going through the electoral process.It was expected to win in any free and fair election . In fact, according to Dr Lim, by the latter half of 1962 the Barisan Socialis was busy preparing for the impending Legislative Assembly elections in 1963 and had no intention of becoming distracted or diverting its energies elsewhere – which is why it had encouraged trade unions not to hold strikes during that period. Hence, the claim that those arrested “were involved in a giant communist conspiracy to launch supporting action in the event of armed intervention by Indonesia in British Borneo” (The Straits Times, 3 February 1963) did not make sense.

Which means only one thing.Prove Barisan Socialis as communist subversives and automatically Dr.Lim becomes one.




Special Branch: You must concede something so that Lee Kuan Yew would be in a position to explain to the public why you had been detained so long. Mr Lee Kuan Yew must also preserve his face. If you were to be released unconditionally, he will lose face.

Dr Lim Hock Siew: I am not interested in saving Lee Kuan Yew’s face. This is not a question of pride but of principle. My detention is completely unjustifiable and I will not lift a single finger to help Lee Kuan Yew to justify the unjustifiable. In the light of what you say, is it not very clear that I have lost my freedom all these long and bitter years just to save Lee Kuan Yew’s face? Therefore the PAP regime’s allegation that I am a security risk is a sham cover and a facade to detain me unjustifiably for over nine years.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

It was required, if not fashionable to be aligned with the communists back then. LHS may not have been a card carrying member but he certainly was in contact with them. LKY was no different. I agree that LHS, personnaly bore no credible threat to the country and that a large part of his arrest is due to conspiracy. But it should not be forgotten that LHS has been clearly silent on his contacts and his acts during those tumultuous times. Closer to the truth is that he has been deliberately allusive. Him being released and doing what he did while released does nothing but show his desire to play the victim card. It's a very cheap card to hold when he had aces with him. He became the hung chicken for the PAPzis doing nothing but to complain about the ISA and to warn others about tortures for going against LKY. What he did after his release couldn't have been better for LKY. This couldn't have been a coincidence. LHS played the flute according to LKY. LHS did a great disservice to the country. We should not allow nor should we encourage others to take the easy way out.

If LHS had any decency left in him he would have owned up his crimes and told it like it was. He could have implicated LKY and PAP easily. The damnest thing is that maybe he didn't really have anything against LKY. And this is both silly and scary. That LKY will up lorry and for eternity nothing can come against the old slime.

 

[kingrant]

Indeed that would be scary.

The damnest thing is that maybe he didn't really have anything against LKY. And this is both silly and scary. That LKY will up lorry and for eternity nothing can come against the old slime.

 

[Conqueror]

Not Prosperity And Progress !

It's lamentable how few Sinkies know what democracy is about. Sheep actually believe that democracy only pertains to the freedom to vote and the freedom to chant slogans in the streets. :(

That kind of democracy was the ancient Athenian way - rule of the mob. Today's context will be more objective. The objective is to focus on freedom, individual rights based on justice and equality. By having all these in place the end result is the general happiness. Is the general happiness found in Sinkiesland ?

 

[maxxieb]

20 odd years detained and yet said nothing of significance after he was released? What did he have to hide? It's more than obvious that he didn't want to say anything. What a bloody loser! But he wasn't such a loser.

What the old man did to Tang's wife and family members should be clear to all that LHSs wife had it easy. LHS was not innocent is all his deeds. A more honest man would have told all his sins and all his glory because no man is a saint but yet this bastard pretended to his death that he was a saint!

after his release he told so many things that he gone thru and things we don't know.....!!! i don't understand why you say he didnt say any signifcance???He already told us what happen inside so what you want then consider significance....maybe only old man can tell you.!!! All his news and report is not in MSM knn for covered up by PAP...!!! Actually cold store operation is a history old man never want us to remember!!! this singapore history was not in your history textbook!!!Because old man just want to cover up want he had done to singaporean deomcracy!!!!he didnt choose to listen to singaporean....and will never listen to us!!!he never respect our decision since 1961!!insulting us and democracy!!!and he will not get our respect!!!!i am waiting for the downfall of family....thats the day we singaporean can celebrate true democracy and know all the SIGNIFICANCE and TRUTH!!!!!!!!

 

[Conqueror]

PAP = Commies

Was he?

What makes you think he is a communist.

In October last year, the government finally disclosed the numbers detained – well, not entirely. “More than 800 people were arrested under the ISA in the 1970s "..Wohweee,what a number!

Barisan Socialis was not a subversive communist front organist maintained Dr.Lim.

PAP is a communist. Even my grandma knew this.

 

[steffychun]

Re: PAP = Commies

PAP is a communist. Even my grandma knew this.

/Did Gradma vote against them?

 

[Conqueror]

Re: PAP = Commies

/Did Gradma vote against them?

Not sure. Hopefully not. I mean not for the PAP.

 

[Kinana]

Re: PAP = Commies

Barisan Socialis was communist. Anyway Lim Hock Seng is dead and wasted his life.
Please let him rest in peace and don't use his death as a tool of hatred for anyone.

 

[deepblue0911]

Re: PAP = Commies

Barisan Socialis was communist. Anyway Lim Hock Seng is dead and wasted his life.
Please let him rest in peace and don't use his death as a tool of hatred for anyone.

The less you speak on this subject matter, the lesser is the chance for people to "use his death as a tool of hatred". Unless its your deliberate strategy to speak provocatively and stir shit.

 

[maozedong]

....by that logic even the PRC Ferrari driver simply wanted every one off his way right?All he wanted was to show off to his girl friend;if only the taxi driver kept the way out of his har?

This is a lame analogy.

Did the PRC Ferrari driver ask the taxi driver to get out of the way before he sped across the junction? NO.

Almost all the political detainees were offered the chance to be released on the condition that they denounce their politics and stay out of politics after their release. Most of them chose not to accept the conditions for their release.

The taxi driver was not offered any choice. Now do you understand the difference?

I do not understand why all these political detainees chose to remain in detention. It is not as if there were many people in Singapore dying of starvation or being tortured or discriminated, etc. Do they think they are Nelson Mandela or what?

 

[kukubird58]

hahaha....the concept of marxism/communism/whatever name is dead in the modern world......
look at the few countries (north korea, cuba; etc..) left and you can form your own conclusion....
lky was ahead of his time to see this.....and took the actions required.......of course u can debate till the cows cum home whether they are justified.

as to lhs...why he needs somebody to write/finish his stories after his death when he refused to do so when he was alive?????