Mother-tongue policy undermines education and our future - Good Article

[littlefish]

While we may just brush away HK is part of PRC as the reason, but deep down, it is more complex. HK wants to keep its own identity and that is why Cantonese is still the defecto spoken language. AND PRCs cannot just walk into HK just like that; they still need to pass through custom.

It is not merely coincident nor convenient secondary side-effect. IT IS THE PRIMARY CONCERNS since the concept of open free trade economy is set as the main economic strategy.

I don't understand what you are saying. You said that HK is very eager to learn Mandarin and now you are saying that HKers want to keep its own identity. Cantonese is simply a dialect of Chinese, same as Mandarin. English is totally different to Chinese.

It is certainly a convenient side-effect. If the entire population at independence was made up of immigrant Chinese, you can be pretty sure they will not be picking English as the dominant language. If the population is made up of majority Malay, we will all be speaking Bahasa fluently today, like the Malaysian Chinese.

 

[Ramseth]

English is the national language of Singapore. Our laws are written in English only. In schools, it is the only 1st Language. Even in SAP schools, it's still co-1st Language. That has to be settled first before we begin talking about bilingualism.

How has Singapore become such with almost 100% non-native-English speaking? Well, of course it due to British colonial rule and later government polices after independence. Is it right or wrong, good or bad? I'd say, on the balance, it has done more good than bad, especially in context of national positioning in international perspective, not to mention personal enlightenment and enrichment through the lingua franca du monde (ironically that's a French expression that I couldn't find a more stylish version in English, meaning the language of the world).

Upkeeping literacy in Chinese (or Malay or Tamil) has always been secondary, not optionally secondary but compulsorily secondary, by government education policy. I'm not against the availability part, but I'm no fan for the compulsory part.

People who know me personally may accuse me of being hypocrite, being multilingual myself beyond mere English and Chinese. I'd say to each his own comfort level. I didn't learn English and Chinese to the standard I'm at now from Singapore schools. I learned it in USA and PRC. Though admittedly, the Singapore schooling days did give me the foundation, for which I'm always grateful and thankful.

My point is still this, to each his own. It's ridiculous to hold down a student who's great in mathematics and science just because he's no good in his mother's tongue, which isn't even his mother's tongue to begin with. His mother speaks dialect.

 

[littlefish]

drivel deleted...

I have absolutely no idea what you are arguing about. I will not be replying to your post.

 

[littlefish]

English is the national language of Singapore. Our laws are written in English only. In schools, it is the only 1st Language. Even in SAP schools, it's still co-1st Language. That has to be settled first before we begin talking about bilingualism.

How has Singapore become such with almost 100% non-native-English speaking? Well, of course it due to British colonial rule and later government polices after independence. Is it right or wrong, good or bad? I'd say, on the balance, it has done more good than bad, especially in context of national positioning in international perspective, not to mention personal enlightenment and enrichment through the lingua franca du monde (ironically that's a French expression that I couldn't find a more stylish version in English, meaning the language of the world).

Upkeeping literacy in Chinese (or Malay or Tamil) has always been secondary, not optionally secondary but compulsorily secondary, by government education policy. I'm not against the availability part, but I'm no fan for the compulsory part.

People who know me personally may accuse me of being hypocrite, being multilingual myself beyond mere English and Chinese. I'd say to each his own comfort level. I didn't learn English and Chinese to the standard I'm at now from Singapore schools. I learned it in USA and PRC. Though admittedly, the Singapore schooling days did give me the foundation, for which I'm always grateful and thankful.

My point is still this, to each his own. It's ridiculous to hold down a student who's great in mathematics and science just because he's no good in his mother's tongue, which isn't even his mother's tongue to begin with. His mother speaks dialect.

Well said. I hated Chinese classes in school. It was only the computer games, kungfu novels, classics like ROTK and comics that made me love the language so much in my late teens when passing Chinese was no longer a pressing requirement.

 

[halsey02]

Well said. I hated Chinese classes in school. It was only the computer games, kungfu novels, classics like ROTK and comics that made me love the language so much in my late teens when passing Chinese was no longer a pressing requirement.

That was why I had seid I rebelled against the language...but that doesn't mean I am not cultured or doesn't have a heritage, as the people in government wants us to buy.

Doesn't mean we do not speak Chinese, we are not Chinese!..that is our heritage & culture..or any other languages or dialects to that effect.

Remember the campaign to go home and smack our ancestor's face, in the Tell you parents not to speak dialects, but Mandarin ( which is another dialect).

It is the Ministry of Education of Singapore, ever experimentation, that had produced 'half baked' speakers of Manadarin & English.

Again, it is 2010, 40 plus years of WE SINGAPORE, we are still at the argument on Mother's Tongue...something is very wrong right?, either we have to change the people who governs for they are not competent or the people have to change to another planet...especially the 66.6%

Learning a language must be a joy, but our education system had made it a toil & to some, it had became a toortue, and they is still far too much emphasis on it.

:p

 

[Ramseth]

Well said. I hated Chinese classes in school. It was only the computer games, kungfu novels, classics like ROTK and comics that made me love the language so much in my late teens when passing Chinese was no longer a pressing requirement.

Exactly. It's the watering down of the syllabus that turns off Chinese students. Who's interested in 爸爸去做工，妈妈去买菜 kind of chapters. But I believe there's a political agenda behind this. To rid all of the 三字经，四书五经，唐诗宋词 from primary and secondary schools. (SAP schools are allowed some of these, selectively.) These are the foundations of proper Chinese education. These aren't only about language, but also consiensional, social and political stuff that can be very influential during teenage formative years transition to adulthood.

 

[littlefish]

Exactly. It's the watering down of the syllabus that turns off Chinese students. Who's interested in 爸爸去做工，妈妈去买菜 kind of chapters. But I believe there's a political agenda behind this. To rid all of the 三字经，四书五经，唐诗宋词 from primary and secondary schools. (SAP schools are allowed some of these, selectively.) These are the foundations of proper Chinese education. These aren't only about language, but also consiensional, social and political stuff that can be very influential during teenage formative years transition to adulthood.

You are right. Now that you have reminded me, the truth is that despite all the years of learning Chinese, the average Chinese SGrean's standard of Chinese is like that of a primary school student when compared to a Taiwanese because what we were taught was lacking in many cultural and historical aspects.

 

[Liquigas]

I hate it when you guys keep mentioning that Singapore is having a bilingual education suytem. How can it be when the medium of instruction in schools is English and Chinese (or another MT) is being used only to teach the second language? Mind you, we are not a bilingual nation like the Swiss or Belgians. To be truly bilingual, we have to teach our kids for some of the subjects (example history or science) in the second language.

 

[Sperminator]

But I believe there's a political agenda behind this. To rid all of the 三字经，四书五经，唐诗宋词 from primary and secondary schools. (SAP schools are allowed some of these, selectively.) These are the foundations of proper Chinese education. These aren't only about language, but also consiensional, social and political stuff that can be very influential during teenage formative years transition to adulthood.

This point raised by Ramseth is one of the most important of all.

I full agree with Ramseth on that there is a Political Agenda behind it.

三字经，四书五经，唐诗宋词

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Books_and_Five_Classics

The above books, and articles are filled with thousands of years of history, information about politics, warfare strategems, economy, business, science, human creativity, and most important of all, human nature.

We have to look back in order to understand the reason of conveniently erasing all these great books in the community Schools (primary, secondary), ITE... (BUT NOT SAP SCHOOLS)

Back in the days of NON-INTERNET, communications between the community is via how knowledgeable, or how aware a person is about the world beyond SINGAPORE.

Mails, Telex, Telephone, Face to Face communications were the only form of communications before the computer age.

Thus, limit, control of Information that the public receives were much easier. People will believe anything the media post. (Did you know that the news casters will just read what is given to them? They are not even the ones to do the news research, besides that, how can one person do so much research in a day?)

Now to the Political Agenda behind all this.

In my own views, I believe this was done purposely to limit the knowlege, and awareness levels of the people in normal schools.

Why? When these people do not develop their minds to their maximum potential, they cannot think clearly, and everyone were given the notion that if you cannot succeed in the education standard of Singapore, you're a failure, you cannot get jobs, blah blah blah (Do you feel the same?).

Thus, generating at least 95% of the masses to be relatively ignorant, not well informed, BOH-CHUP, too lazy to exercise their god given rights of thinking (and when people are thinking, some SINKIES will feel jealous, and bash people upfront... due to their own insecurities)

Why are they ignorant? The education system is designed in a way that, Singaporeans who study in Singapore Normal Education System, will not be exposed to History of more than 100 years, not exposed to Politics of more than 100 years, not exposed to the Great Books of the West and East.

However, they are focused mainly on Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Engineering, Technical etc, Business, Accounting, Management, Marketing, Arts & Crafts etc...

Go take a look at our education system, and it'll be all clear that Singapore Education System is designed to bring out "Law Abiding Citizen"

For these topics mentioned are only suitable to allow you to think in that scope, isn't that limiting your own Mind's potential?

As for the SAP schools, they were taught everything, a range of topics, from History of more than 1000 years, Politics of more than 1000 years, Wars of more than 1000 years, The Great Books of the East and West... They even have highly qualified professional teachers that truly made a great difference.

These people studying in SAP schools are one up against the Singapore's Normal School, in terms of a wide range of exposure in their young minds, grooming future leaders of Singapore.

I view English as a valueable tool to gain understanding of the thoughts of the Western World.

I view Chinese as a valueable tool to gain understanding of the thoughts of the Eastern World (China)

And other different languages a valueable too to gain understanding of the thoughts of the different cultures...

 

[Char_Azn]

I don't understand what you are saying. You said that HK is very eager to learn Mandarin and now you are saying that HKers want to keep its own identity. Cantonese is simply a dialect of Chinese, same as Mandarin. English is totally different to Chinese.

IMO I think its wrong to classify most Chinese Dialect as a "dialect" since it's most of which are intelligible with one another altogether. Someone who can speak Cantonese may not be able to understand Hokkien or Shanghainese and vice versa. I've met old ah mahs in SG who can only speak hokkien and not other language including Mandarin. I can speak fluent Mandarin and Cantonese but can't speak Hokkien. I still find it weird to have to get a translator to talk to some of them.

IMO when we talk about dialects you would expect one to be mutually intelligible from another but it's not so for Chinese Dialects. In India, they consider Urdu and Hindi to be 2 different languages although it is pretty much the same thing, even Portugese and Spanish which is largely similar are considered to be exclusive languages, I think Chinese Dialects should be called different languages rather then dialect. The term dialect is pretty misleading. The Grammar is different enough for many of them and the words totally sound different I see no good reason why they shouldn't be called a different language other then the fact that calling them dialects makes for less excuse for them to be called a different race altogether

 

[motuiti]

You people should be in parliament. This is exactly the kind of debate the government should have, not the silent yes men mp's who sit in parliament and not raise any challenge.

 

[Ramseth]

Exactly. Most of written versions of dialects have died off except for Cantonese and Hokkien (because of Hong Kong and Taiwan). If you read a magazine in Hong Kong, it's written in Cantonese, not Mandarin. If you sing a Taiwanese song in karaoke, its lyrics are in Taiwanese (a.k.a. Minanese or Hokkien), not Mandarin. The common use of ABC alphabet doesn't mean ABC always means Latin or English. Same thing here. Even Japanese use Chinese characters. Though they have their own kana to make their sentences instantly distinguishable as Japanese at first sight.

IMO I think its wrong to classify most Chinese Dialect as a "dialect" since it's most of which are intelligible with one another altogether. Someone who can speak Cantonese may not be able to understand Hokkien or Shanghainese and vice versa. I've met old ah mahs in SG who can only speak hokkien and not other language including Mandarin. I can speak fluent Mandarin and Cantonese but can't speak Hokkien. I still find it weird to have to get a translator to talk to some of them.

IMO when we talk about dialects you would expect one to be mutually intelligible from another but it's not so for Chinese Dialects. In India, they consider Urdu and Hindi to be 2 different languages although it is pretty much the same thing, even Portugese and Spanish which is largely similar are considered to be exclusive languages, I think Chinese Dialects should be called different languages rather then dialect. The term dialect is pretty misleading. The Grammar is different enough for many of them and the words totally sound different I see no good reason why they shouldn't be called a different language other then the fact that calling them dialects makes for less excuse for them to be called a different race altogether

 

[lancerglxi]

Many Western-educated losers continue to hanker for the change. Fuck them, let's import more PRC young grads and all those Pinkertons can migrate and fuck off to the West

China need people like you. Fluent in vulgarities.

 

[Ramseth]

Why is Beijing Chinese called Mandarin? It's the language of nobility and civilty. It's very hard to get vulgar in Mandarin even if you try very hard, what else than 他妈的？

Tiu neh lou mou chou hai and kan nin na bu chao chee bye only exist in southern dialects, not even translatable to Mandarin. Try translate it to Mandarin. See?

 

[annexa]

Child cannot score well in Chinese, lower Chinese grading. So those people whose child cannot count, can ask to lower Maths grading. Those whose child not good in science but good in Chinese ask for lower Science grading.

SO clever you all sinkies.

 

[Sideswipe]

Why is Beijing Chinese called Mandarin? It's the language of nobility and civilty. It's very hard to get vulgar in Mandarin even if you try very hard, what else than 他妈的？

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese_profanity

 

[halsey02]

Exactly. Most of written versions of dialects have died off except for Cantonese and Hokkien (because of Hong Kong and Taiwan). If you read a magazine in Hong Kong, it's written in Cantonese, not Mandarin. If you sing a Taiwanese song in karaoke, its lyrics are in Taiwanese (a.k.a. Minanese or Hokkien), not Mandarin. The common use of ABC alphabet doesn't mean ABC always means Latin or English. Same thing here. Even Japanese use Chinese characters. Though they have their own kana to make their sentences instantly distinguishable as Japanese at first sight.

I found this out when I was young, when I received letters from Macau ( not Iwo Jima) from my maternal uncle, and had to read it out for my mother. I read it the Mandarin way...and discovered many Chinese Characters I couldn't understand, and looking up in the dictionary could not find. At first, I could not make head or tail of the letter, & discover if I were to read that letter in Cantonese..and boy!...I could read.

This led me to do my own research & found out that, each dialect; have their own subset of Chinese Characters, the style in which it was written & the prose too.

That is why, Mandarin; the language of Administration was adopted as one common language amongst the Chinese..Mandarin or pu tong hua.

The unique way in which each dialect, write, speak & even the way they eat, handle their crockery is our Chinese heritage; and sadly it had been made extinct by our educational policy of MOTHER's TONGUE ( as in the case of Chinese people, MANDARIN). We have effectively in two generations, remove our heritage.

Talking about crockery, do you people know that the Hokkien bowl size is different from the Cantonese, the Teochew, the Hainanese etc.. and there are rice bowl, soup bowl...

 

[Ash007]

Why is Beijing Chinese called Mandarin? It's the language of nobility and civilty. It's very hard to get vulgar in Mandarin even if you try very hard, what else than 他妈的？

Tiu neh lou mou chou hai and kan nin na bu chao chee bye only exist in southern dialects, not even translatable to Mandarin. Try translate it to Mandarin. See?

Ramseth I'm disappointed in you I thought you would have known what the equivalent of it is in mandarin. This again highlights how bad the standard of chinese is in Singapore, the equivalent is. 肏你妈的臭屄.

 

[Ash007]

You are right, our heritage, our real mother tongue has been wiped out in two generation. Thanks for the info for the different sized bowls. Is there anywhere I can find out more information about this. I'm really curious about learning my heritage now.

I found this out when I was young, when I received letters from Macau ( not Iwo Jima) from my maternal uncle, and had to read it out for my mother. I read it the Mandarin way...and discovered many Chinese Characters I couldn't understand, and looking up in the dictionary could not find. At first, I could not make head or tail of the letter, & discover if I were to read that letter in Cantonese..and boy!...I could read.

This led me to do my own research & found out that, each dialect; have their own subset of Chinese Characters, the style in which it was written & the prose too.

That is why, Mandarin; the language of Administration was adopted as one common language amongst the Chinese..Mandarin or pu tong hua.

The unique way in which each dialect, write, speak & even the way they eat, handle their crockery is our Chinese heritage; and sadly it had been made extinct by our educational policy of MOTHER's TONGUE ( as in the case of Chinese people, MANDARIN). We have effectively in two generations, remove our heritage.

Talking about crockery, do you people know that the Hokkien bowl size is different from the Cantonese, the Teochew, the Hainanese etc.. and there are rice bowl, soup bowl...

 

[littlefish]

Child cannot score well in Chinese, lower Chinese grading. So those people whose child cannot count, can ask to lower Maths grading. Those whose child not good in science but good in Chinese ask for lower Science grading.

SO clever you all sinkies.

You are ignoring an important difference. You need a good grounding in Maths and Science if you decide to study advanced subjects like Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Computing, etc later. The only reason you need a good grounding in a second language is if you are going to study it in an advanced form later or if you want to study the history and culture of the people using the language or if you want to become an interpreter (which means you need proficiency in more than one language). I have nothing against people who want to major in a language but the reality is that in SG's context, there are not many job opportunities for historians and such. Certainly, if it is your passion to study the language, go for it but why force others who are unwilling?

Of course, limiting yourself to being proficient in only one language limits your options but it is nothing compared to the limits you put on yourself if you decide to ignore Maths and Science.