Let's pressurise the stupid PAP to train all "talented" PRC and other nationalities in Singapore to speak proper English first (which is bigger issue here) before meddling with Singaporean Mandarin language. Drawing million dollars salaries still do not know how to manage priority.
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Mother-tongue policy undermines education and our future - Good Article
- Thread starter SNAblog
- Start date
The issue here is whether it is a necessity to attain a minimum standard in second language in order to advance academically. It is not about ditching the teaching of second language.
My opinion is that forcing students to attain a minimum standard in second language will not help foster a passion in it if the students are already weak in it. It will only make the students hate it even more. Removing the focus on attaining a minimum standard means that the students can concentrate on appreciating the language on its own without the stress. For those who are strong in it, they can go beyond the classroom lessons and learn advanced aspects of the language from external sources.
Right now, all I see is that most people manage to attain the minimum standard but seldom do I find a person who will go beyond that and become sufficiently proficient and versatile in the language (only talking about Chinese here). This implies that the current system of having a minimum standard is broken.
All the talk about places like Taiwan, HK, etc being good in Chinese is not comparing apples to apples. These places use Chinese as their de facto means of communication. SG, due to historical reasons, will not be able to emulate this. The next best alternative is to ensure that the population is at least proficient in English and for those with the aptitude, to learn a second language at an examinable level.
Languages should be learnt because you are passionate about it and want to appreciate their beauty (for the case where the languages in question are not necessary for daily survival). They should not be learnt because you think they will help you make more money. Having this mentality will only make you a shallow person. This condition seems to affect many SGreans in particular.
My opinion is that forcing students to attain a minimum standard in second language will not help foster a passion in it if the students are already weak in it. It will only make the students hate it even more. Removing the focus on attaining a minimum standard means that the students can concentrate on appreciating the language on its own without the stress. For those who are strong in it, they can go beyond the classroom lessons and learn advanced aspects of the language from external sources.
Right now, all I see is that most people manage to attain the minimum standard but seldom do I find a person who will go beyond that and become sufficiently proficient and versatile in the language (only talking about Chinese here). This implies that the current system of having a minimum standard is broken.
All the talk about places like Taiwan, HK, etc being good in Chinese is not comparing apples to apples. These places use Chinese as their de facto means of communication. SG, due to historical reasons, will not be able to emulate this. The next best alternative is to ensure that the population is at least proficient in English and for those with the aptitude, to learn a second language at an examinable level.
Languages should be learnt because you are passionate about it and want to appreciate their beauty (for the case where the languages in question are not necessary for daily survival). They should not be learnt because you think they will help you make more money. Having this mentality will only make you a shallow person. This condition seems to affect many SGreans in particular.
Utter rubbish. Problem is the way it is taught and years of underminding mandarin by the monkeys in charge. If not for computer games and comics mandarin in Singapore would be a much sadder state.
The way mandarin is taught these days is just route learning and memorising. Little attention was paid by MOE on how to improved methods then again comes as no surprise since little regard is given to 2nd langauges.
The way mandarin is taught these days is just route learning and memorising. Little attention was paid by MOE on how to improved methods then again comes as no surprise since little regard is given to 2nd langauges.
The ability to communicate is not the knowledge of one language or many languages, unless one is mute, even so, communication can be done by sign language.
After so many decades we are still wrestling with this language thing, why can't they let it be a natural thing?. One can speak one language, so be it...speak it well; and a second language would be an addition.
During my days, I have seen Chinese Language Chauvinists who balk at the thought of their children learning English & vice versa. I have known traditional Chinese speaking background families, who insists that their children gets educated in English, but speake Mandarin & dialects at home.
I have personally witness & lambasted a Chinese speaking chauvinist who told off my colleague who doesn't speak a word of Chinese for he is a true blue Peranakan. The person went on to insult my colleague on his Chinese heritage and so forth... I have to blast that CCP in Mandarin...and that shocked the person, that I could speak Mandarin & know Chinese culture & heritage too..
What I am saying is, make learning a language enjoyable, and allow a child to grow in whichever language he or she is comfortable in, we still can learn our own culture & heritage in whatever language we speak.
Then encourage the child to learn the language in which is his MOTHER's TONGUE...that is, the race in which the child originates from.
All these tossing & turning with this Mother's tongue is getting us nowhere...... we all, who had been through school, had been a victim of the Ministry of Education experimentation & we have suffered.
It is time, we stop the future generation from having to be 'dragged through the m&d' with this Mother's tongue issue, all over again.
By the way. my Mother's tongue is not mandarin, that is 'pu tong hua'...my mother's tongue is Cantonese...and were taught in school ran by the Cantonese in Cantonese...for an example...Mandarin became my 'pu tong hua' when I started formal education...and that is not my MOTHER'S TONGUE..
Please stop the children's sufferings...we have suffered enough!!!
To solve all these problems, pass a law to allow all these bananas to declare that they are not Chinese, and update the "Race" column in their IC as "Raceless". Then they are free not to take Chinese as MT, though they still have to choose a second language of their choice to pass before they can be promoted in PSLE,O and A levels etc
I worked with two former bosses (at different companies); both Nantah graduates, very passionate about Chinese language & culture and always looking for opportunity to speak Mandarin in the office. But when they are at home, they speak English and not Mandarin to their children because both want to create a English speaking environment. Singaporeans are a practical lot and since few really have exceptional language ability, to enable your kids to excel in that language you have to use that language at home.
China may be rising but in the next 10 to 20 years, English will still be the language of commerce. Masterng English is all important. All parents know that. As long as our kids can speak Mandarin, to me, is good enough. Writing Chinese well is less important. In my office now, I can call and talk to my associate in China in Mandarin but when I need to write an email to him, it will be in English.
our national policy is - what is good for old fart is good for the country.
Me a chauvinist? lol. Probably, but as far as I am concern the real chauvinists are those who expect everyone else to communicate sophisticated english complete with proper grammer spelling etc. I guess I am lucky I work in an MNC and have a lot of exposure to countries around the world.
I also travel a lot for work and leisure and have made a lot of friends during my travels and I can honestly tell U that your so called pple who make themselves look like fools becoz they cant articulate themselves well? It applies to the vast majority of the world. My French, Italian, Argentinian, Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Thai colleagues/friends all speak like "fools". Does that make U any better then them?
From all my experience with Ang Mohs, most of them don't really mind how bad your level of English is as long as you can communicate with them one way or another they don't really care if you have a decent command of the english language. In fact many of them look down on you if you cant even speak your own mother tongue. Yes the fact is being able to speak proper English will not impress them, not being able to speak in Chinese will make them look down on you. Most of my American colleague are amazed by the fact that many Asian are bilingual even though many of us speak half past 6 English
IMO being born in an English speaking family is a really lousy excuse. I am born in a Cantonese speaking family, my family speaks nothing but Cantonese. My siblings/cousins and most of my childhood friends all speak Cantonese so I basically speak Cantonese all my life. It may be call a dialect but its a totally different language from Chinese and English, you don't see me complaining about having to learn 2 new languages which I don't speak at home. Hell if U come from an English speaking family U freaking hell only need to learn 1 new language. And just to illustrate how different Chinese dialects are, I still cant for the life of me, pick up enough hokkien to have a decent conversation and that's the most common dialect here. Doesn't seem to affect any of my siblings either. BTW I actually fail Chinese when I was in sec 1. Instead of whining, I worked harder and by the time I reach upper sec, my teachers were recommending I take higher Chinese.
And for those who claim that Chinese is not important to doing business should really open your eyes and look around. East Asia is predominantly Chinese speaking due to China and its sphere of influence. HK and Taiwan has always been an important trading partner for most in the region. Not only is it a raising economy, just about everything we are using today have is directly or indirectly connected back to China. Besides China, India is also another important emerging market although U can probably survive better with English then Hindi in India
Closer to home, even in MY, the majority of the Chinese are more comfortable speaking Chinese/Malay then they are in English. In fact that's usually how they communicate with other Chinese Vendors/Customers, in Mandarin or Cantonese.
It is true that any people on Earth, be it English speaking Westerners or Mandarin speaking Chinese, would look down on people who don't speak their own Mother Tongue.
Most of the time, while the Chinese in China would envy Singaporeans who could speak English, but deep down, they look down on those who couldn't utter a single sentence in Mandarin.
If you are Westerners and couldn't speak Mandarin, they don't really care. If Westerners could speak Mandarin in China, they will be very impressed. But the fact that you are of the same race as them but couldn't speak the same Mandarin as they do, they will look down on you. This is a fact that many Singaporeans do not want to acknowledge.
You may consider the PRCs as "Chinese chauvinists" but the fact that Westerners as well as Japanese, Koreans...etc also expect Singapore Chinese to speak Mandarin as well. Are they "Chinese chauvinists" as well? No. They are proud of their own culture and they couldn't understand why others like Singaporeans are not proud of their own inherited culture.
Speaking is only part of the whole cultural setup. They would expect you to read and write as well. The Chinese are trying very hard to learn foreign languages, not only English but Korean, Russian and Japanese as well, for ease of trade and business. They have institutions specialized in teaching foreign languages. However, I have never heard of them giving up their mother tongue, Chinese, in exchange for a "marketable" language. Same goes to Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese and HK.
Maybe Singapore is a small trading port which is pragmatic in its approach to language education. The only thing that matters is about how much weightage or marks one could get from exam, instead of the intrinsic value of learning a language or Mother Tongue. The feeling is this. They don't mind lowering standards as it would mean that it would be easier for their children to score. But to reduce weightage would mean that it will affect their children's grading ultimately! That's the crux of the matter.
Goh Meng Seng
They look down on you even more if you can't speak your own mother-tongue, mines Hokkien and Teochew, and I actually learn it in Australia of all places while I'm studying here. Not the rough, half-past-six hokkiens you learn in Singapore nowadays. I've also noticed a lot of PRCs are surprised when I mentioned that I'm from Singapore, they would comment that my mandarin is pretty excellent given that I'm from Singapore. I suppose most PRCs have this idea that Singaporean can't utter proper mandarin compared to them. We need more PRCs in Singapore to improve the mandarin standard!
You are really talking nonsense here. Do you know how many Americans of Italian, French, German, Greek descent etc who can't speak a single word of their mother tongue? Are you saying they are all being looked down upon?
Your statement shows your inferiority complex. You are more concerned about what others think of you than what you think of yourself. Confidence does not come from knowing how to speak your mother tongue, it comes from knowing who you are. I will tell you for a fact that if you can't speak proper English in most English-speaking countries, you will be lumped together with third-world refugees when applying for jobs (of course, this doesn't matter much if you are not seeking employment in these countries or if you are rich enough to hire your own interpreters).
Used to think you have some gray matter up there but I am not so sure now. It seems that Asians have more issues with an inferiority complex and will not hesitate to discriminate against others for being a little different from themselves. What is wrong with others choosing a different path? So what if you are of Chinese descent but can't speak a word of Chinese? It is the same as telling a cripple he is useless because he has two legs but can't walk.
I was assuming U were smart enough to realize that I am talking about pple from countries speaking their native tongue, e.g. Japanese in Japan, Thai in Thailand and not American Japanese/Thai. Obviously I over-estimated your intelligence :oIo::oIo::oIo:
In SG we do not have any excuse because
- Chinese is one of the official language
- It is taught in schools
- Vast majority of the Chinese community CAN speak the language at one level or another
- You can find Chinese everywhere. Biz signboards/publications/etc
Yes, the stereotyping of Singapore Chinese as "假洋鬼子" has been deep rooted. I surprised quite a lot of PRCs when I speak Mandarin. Most of them thought I am from Taiwan and least expect me to be from Singapore.
I do feel handicapped and look down upon while in Hainan Island when my relatives take pain to listen to my half past six Hainanese.
Goh Meng Seng
I do feel handicapped and look down upon while in Hainan Island when my relatives take pain to listen to my half past six Hainanese.
Goh Meng Seng
They look down on you even more if you can't speak your own mother-tongue, mines Hokkien and Teochew, and I actually learn it in Australia of all places while I'm studying here. Not the rough, half-past-six hokkiens you learn in Singapore nowadays. I've also noticed a lot of PRCs are surprised when I mentioned that I'm from Singapore, they would comment that my mandarin is pretty excellent given that I'm from Singapore. I suppose most PRCs have this idea that Singaporean can't utter proper mandarin compared to them. We need more PRCs in Singapore to improve the mandarin standard!
that mandarin is the mother tongue of chinese sinkies is a friggin myth. sinkies' mother tongues are found in various dialects.
You are certainly the bigger fool here. Tell me, was the entire population speaking Mandarin fluently a few decades ago? For the sake of educating you, I will tell you that most people back in those days could not even write in Chinese. I will bet my bottom dollar you could hardly even hear a word of Mandarin in those times. Chinese in its current form in SG is a supplanted language. Don't make me laugh by comparing with countries like Japan and Thailand where they have been using their languagues for many centuries.
I have no problems with having all Chinese in SG learn Mandarin Chinese. What I am against is discriminating against those who can't excel in it when it is not being used as the medium of instruction. Are we then to discriminate against the minorities who can't speak Mandarin/Chinese? The fact is that SG can't force everyone to use Mandarin/Chinese in their everyday lives, so why set the bar to force people to attain minimum standards in the language? Same goes for the other second languages.
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I understand you on this, from where I was brought up & interact with when young; many of the families insist that their children learn & speak English, but learn Chinese & Mandarin, and know both languages proficiently. We (I) grew up effectively bi-lingual and even tri-lingual; when school wanted us to learn Malay as a non examination subject.
For me, I am not ashamed to say that, I am 'half a bucket of water' in Chinese, due to the Ministry of Education, ever changing ways of teaching the language; I just rebelled. I went on to proof to the system, that I still can manage to make a living, be cultured, have a heritage, know my mother tongue; and with whatever education I have; still can make a living.
I hated the fact that, I was made a 'guinea pig' by Ministry of Education, Singapore, in their even experimentation in learning the Chinese language; that confuses the learner and create generations of Chinese learners with various forms of disability in Chinese.
My time, we have to learn to translate, "bai hua wen" into "wen yen wen" and vice versa;translate passages of "bai hua wen" or "wen yen wen" into English, not allowed to use jian pi chi( now know as Hanyu Pinyin).
I had a culture shock, when I have to teach my niece, so many years back; when Hanyu Pinyin was in its infancy. She ask, teach me how to write my name in Chinese, I did in the old way. The child came back and told me, that teacher says I should get educated...the old Chinese Characaters is not alllowed... Then I ask myself aren't we Chinese...I was taught the old characters set??!!
So what we have now, a 'half a bucket of water' Chinese lost in his Chinese world...strange isn't it.
Back to my original point, of allowing a child to learn whichever language the child is natural is, without compromising the child mother tongue!
Free the children of tomorrow of the shackle of learning a language & be an ever lasting 'guinea pig' testers for the Ministry of Education Singapore.
In whatever language we speak, we can still make a living anywhere in the world, that we have a brain to learn, two good hands & legs...
If you spend long enough in any place in the world, China etc...you will soon learn to SWEAR in their language & then learn their language..
So, what the hell...in 2010 40 plus years since we have OUR SINGAPORE..we are still battling it out with the Mother Tongue's issue...if this is the case, we have very incompetent officials, then time it is for a change...and free our children of tomorrow of this burden.
If not in the year 3010, PAP still around... the mother's tongus issue will still be around...and maybe we have to learn HINDI!:p
It is not just about Asians. Australians, New Zealanders, Americans, British... all the same. It is not really "discrimination" but rather the pride that they take in their own culture and expectation of others to be so as well.
The Americans or British won't be bothered if a Japanese, HK or Korean cannot speak perfect English. I do not think they expect Singaporeans to speak perfect English as well because they understand that it is not supposed to be their mother tongue. But they would be very surprised if you can't speak your own mother tongue, unless you are ABC (American Born Chinese) or ABJ or ABK etc.
It has got to do with big country, big culture syndrome. China, American, British Korea and Japan are big country with their own culture. They are naturally proud of their culture and would expect others to be so as well, each to be proud of their own culture. And rightfully or wrongfully, they expect race to dictate cultural roots.
Simple difference appears in dealing with the PRC businessman. If you can't speak even putonghua, it is very difficult for you to get that close to them. If you can speak their dialects like Hokkien, the distance would even be closer. That's why Taiwanese are very successful in China as a whole. Whether we like it or not, this is the norm. You cannot change the colour of your skin nor your race. Other people will have that little expectation from you. They won't have such expectation on people with some other races. I say this just to debunk that little naive talk about Westerners can do business in China, so could we with English. Yes, you can, but you won't be as successful as Chinese elsewhere.
It is also a fact that the pragmatic Hong Kongers have embarked on a total education revamp on language policy. Putonghua has become an important curriculum. Chinese Dialects like Cantonese share a common base of Chinese characters and culture. But even with that, it is just not enough. Many young students in Hong Kong now speak perfect Beijing Putonghua. In 10 to 20 years time, this new generation of Hong Kongers will be able to integrate well into the mainland economy.
Goh Meng Seng
Singapore's so-called bilingual and mother-tongue education policy is not to educate you or your children, it's not about education. It's politics, divide and rule. Malays are luckier and would have no problem with it, taking it in stride. Chinese and Indians would have problems. Mandarin is not the mother tongue for almost all Singapore Chinese; the mother tongues are dialects like Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese etc.
In China and Taiwan, Mandarin taught as national tongue, not mother tongue. It's supposed to be an unifying tongue for the nation. But in Singapore, it's to divide. Our national tongue is of course English; our laws are written in English.
In Singapore, it's articificial tongue transplant. How could you say one's mother tongue is Mandarin when his mother speaks only Hokkien? How could you say one's mother tongue is Tamil when her mother speaks only Punjabi or Hindi?
In China and Taiwan, Mandarin taught as national tongue, not mother tongue. It's supposed to be an unifying tongue for the nation. But in Singapore, it's to divide. Our national tongue is of course English; our laws are written in English.
In Singapore, it's articificial tongue transplant. How could you say one's mother tongue is Mandarin when his mother speaks only Hokkien? How could you say one's mother tongue is Tamil when her mother speaks only Punjabi or Hindi?
true. except hispanics of mexican descent, many ethnic americans have given up on their mother tongues. many are respected in their countries of ancestral origins even though they don't speak their mother tongues, and i think american culture in terms of music, movies and media have dominated the globe like no other. even the old u.k. is starting to adopt american mannerisms in their modern drama productions.
for sg, there's nothing dominating about sg. everytime a sinkie opens his/her mouth in an international setting, everybody cracks up. it's a nerve wrecking experience hearing a true blue sinkie give a speech.
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