Minimum wage: The real work of an opposition

[yuelao]

I like to quote your figures here first and would like to ask if min hourly wage is increased to $15/$20hr, by then how much would a plate of chicken rice cost in hawker centre?

Quintessential PAP talk of comparing it to some basic thing. Are you saying that just because you want your stuff cheap, you are alright with oppressing and exploiting others? This is the typical Asian mentality though, not exclusive to Sinkieland. If this is what Sinkies want, that is alright with me but don't yearn for a country to belong to because people don't like to be exploited.

There is a saying, 不怕货比货, 只怕不识货. Not afraid of comparing products, just afraid that you can't differentiate a quality product from a lousy one. Most Sinkies instinctively look at the cost, without first considering the quality they are sacrificing. Those who have lived in a real first world country will understand what I am saying. Those in Sinkieland will not understand because most would not have been willing to fork out for a quality product to understand the difference and thus, such products are a rarity. Most Sinkies are still living in survival mode, they will accept any kind of half-fuck quality as long as it is the cheapest.

 

[silverfox@]

Quintessential PAP talk of comparing it to some basic thing. Are you saying that just because you want your stuff cheap, you are alright with oppressing and exploiting others? This is the typical Asian mentality though, not exclusive to Sinkieland. If this is what Sinkies want, that is alright with me but don't yearn for a country to belong to because people don't like to be exploited.

There is a saying, 不怕货比货, 只怕不识货. Not afraid of comparing products, just afraid that you can't differentiate a quality product from a lousy one. Most Sinkies instinctively look at the cost, without first considering the quality they are sacrificing. Those who have lived in a real first world country will understand what I am saying. Those in Sinkieland will not understand because most would not have been willing to fork out for a quality product to understand the difference and thus, such products are a rarity. Most Sinkies are still living in survival mode, they will accept any kind of half-fuck quality as long as it is the cheapest.

$15 per hour for a hawker stall assistant. 8 hours a day, work 6 days a week. Salary will $2880 per month. Rental of stall $3000

$5880 per month. Divided by 24 days of operations is $245 overheads per day,
Whether you open stall or don't open stall, you already -$245.

Can u please explain how many plates of chicken rice to sell and cover daily and the price to charge

 

[yuelao]

$15 per hour for a hawker stall assistant. 8 hours a day, work 6 days a week. Salary will $2880 per month. Rental of stall $3000

$5880 per month. Divided by 24 days of operations is $245 overheads per day,
Whether you open stall or don't open stall, you already -$245.

Can u please explain how many plates of chicken rice to sell and cover daily and the price to charge

Stupidfuck! Why don't you ask who is the one making all the profit from the rentals, utilities, upgraded facilities, etc etc?

Because we do not have minimum wage, you will see society getting extremely polarised. One end will become more and more well-off while those at the other end will get exploited to death. Add to this, the lack of workers' rights and one day, the whole mix will become so unstable it can blow up any day.

When the workers have sufficient rights and find that they can't even afford basic necessities, they are going to fight for better pay. Your scaremongering tactics will only work on those who have no balls to fight for their rights. Just because you are so useless that you need to oppress others to live comfortably does not mean others share your view.

This kind of rhetoric will only work on those who are fearful, usually those near the lower end of the spectrum in terms of earning prowess. They should also take comfort in the knowledge that their pay will at least be at a certain minimum level and they do not need to worry that their income will shrink by X% next year because the government decides to bring in another 100K cheaper FTs while prices are rising.

 

[silverfox@]

Stupidfuck! Why don't you ask who is the one making all the profit from the rentals, utilities, upgraded facilities, etc etc?

Because we do not have minimum wage, you will see society getting extremely polarised. One end will become more and more well-off while those at the other end will get exploited to death. Add to this, the lack of workers' rights and one day, the whole mix will become so unstable it can blow up any day.

When the workers have sufficient rights and find that they can't even afford basic necessities, they are going to fight for better pay. Your scaremongering tactics will only work on those who have no balls to fight for their rights. Just because you are so useless that you need to oppress others to live comfortably does not mean others share your view.

This kind of rhetoric will only work on those who are fearful, usually those near the lower end of the spectrum in terms of earning prowess. They should also take comfort in the knowledge that their pay will at least be at a certain minimum level and they do not need to worry that their income will shrink by X% next year because the government decides to bring in another 100K cheaper FTs while prices are rising.

You can reply and talk so much no use, if the simplest of maths you can't even count.

 

[aurvandil]

$15 per hour for a hawker stall assistant. 8 hours a day, work 6 days a week. Salary will $2880 per month. Rental of stall $3000

$5880 per month. Divided by 24 days of operations is $245 overheads per day,
Whether you open stall or don't open stall, you already -$245.

Can u please explain how many plates of chicken rice to sell and cover daily and the price to charge

The original rationale for mnay of the policies for hawking was that it would be a employment refuge for poor Singaporeans without much education. If they were willing to put in 12 to 15 hours a day, they would be able to earn a decent living. The intent was never to have a small group of hawker tycoons who would have chains of stalls all around Singapore, manned by an army of foreign workers who are paid exploitation level wages.

 

[silverfox@]

The original rationale for mnay of the policies for hawking was that it would be a employment refuge for poor Singaporeans without much education. If they were willing to put in 12 to 15 hours a day, they would be able to earn a decent living. The intent was never to have a small group of hawker tycoons who would have chains of stalls all around Singapore, manned by an army of foreign workers who are paid exploitation level wages.

Please don't regurgitate what others are saying.

Can u please explain then how many plates of chicken rice to sell and cover daily and the price to charge?

Reading and want to siam this question I posed?

 

[silverfox@]

The original rationale for mnay of the policies for hawking was that it would be a employment refuge for poor Singaporeans without much education. If they were willing to put in 12 to 15 hours a day, they would be able to earn a decent living. The intent was never to have a small group of hawker tycoons who would have chains of stalls all around Singapore, manned by an army of foreign workers who are paid exploitation level wages.

1stly, more and more Singaporeans are becoming educated, so does that mean there will be less and less hawkers?

2ndly, your mindset is shit. You mean to say people who are poor are not supposed to be rich in the latter stages of their life after putting in hard work? Your intent was never to have a small group of hawker tycoons from having chains of stalls. (It's not the intent)

Increase wages, yes can be done. Increase food price, will you eat? From your mindset on money, 50cts increase, you will start a complaint thesis.

 

[Ramseth]

What minimum wage? For a moment, I thought it's typo for minimum wager.

 

[aurvandil]

1stly, more and more Singaporeans are becoming educated, so does that mean there will be less and less hawkers?

It is a fallacy that just becaue you are educated, you will be rich. Thanks to the FT policy, many hawkers earn more than our young graudates today.

2ndly, your mindset is shit. You mean to say people who are poor are not supposed to be rich in the latter stages of their life after putting in hard work?

My my ... seem to have touched a raw nerve. Of course everybody should get rich if they themselves work hard. They should not however get rich by exploiting the blood and sweat of others.

 

[silverfox@]

It is a fallacy that just becaue you are educated, you will be rich. Thanks to the FT policy, many hawkers earn more than our young graudates today.

You got any studies to show these days hawkers are earning more than young graduates. A lot of hawkers these days are not employing anyone but only doing themselves or within their family members and the ones that you said are making a lot are 1 in how many?

My my ... seem to have touched a raw nerve. Of course everybody should get rich if they themselves work hard. They should not however get rich by exploiting the blood and sweat of others.

However your perception of those who got rich are not because they work hard. Your perception of those who got rich are those who exploit the blood and sweat of others. That's your perception all along.

 

[yuelao]

You can reply and talk so much no use, if the simplest of maths you can't even count.

Stupidfuck! Your brain is so tiny it is only fixated on the issue of how much a plate of chicken rice costs. I am asking you why are you not questioning the other components that make up the running costs of running a chicken rice stall? Why are you only focused on wages?

If you can't even answer these questions, you are just a stupid dumb fuck with no balls. :oIo:

A strong man stands up for himself, a stronger man stands up for others. stupidfuck! is only concerned about oppressing and exploiting others so he can afford his chicken rice because he is too useless to even get employed at minimum wage.

Traitor identified: stupidfuck!

 

[aurvandil]

Reading and want to siam this question I posed?

I didn’t “siam” your chicken rice question. It raised policy issues which were more complex than I had time for yesterday.

Here is a simplified version told into a story a layperson can understand.

Let’s say there are two chicken rice sellers – Badwolf and Goodwolf.

Badwolf is chicken rice stall tycoon. His business model is to have a chain of chicken rice stalls. These chicken rice stalls are manned by an army of foreign workers who are paid $900 per month and expected to work 12 to 15 hours a day. He has a chain of 30 chicken rice stalls. His goal is to earn $1k per stall so that he can have a monthly income $30,000. Because his required profit per stall is so low, he can afford to bid up rentals for stalls.

Goodwolf is a chicken rice stall holder. He runs a chicken rice stall with his aged mother. It is hard work and they work 12 to 15 hours a day. As the stall is their sole source of income, they need to earn at least $3k per month in order to make ends meet. As such, they can afford to pay much less rent than Badwolf.

If you put Badwolf and Goodwolf together, then it is obvious that Badwolf will eventually crowd out Goodwolf. Badwolf and other tycoons like him will bid up the price of stall rentals until Goodwolf is forced out of business. Goodwolf and his aged mother are then forced to work for Badwolf for $900 per month for 12 to 15 hours a day. When they complain that this is much less than what they were earning as independent hawkers, Badwolf says “Sorry … you have to be competitive compared to other young FT. Otherwise I cannot hire you.”

When questioned about whether it is equitable that he earns $30k while his workers earn $900 under exploitative conditions, Badwolf hides under arguments of free markets, FREEDOM and how he fully deserves the $30k because he is a “talent” who works hard.

If MOM carries on with the current FT policy, the F&B business in Singapore will eventually be dominated by tycoons like Badwolf. Small mom and pop hawker operations like Goodwolf will be forced out of business by ever spiraling rentals. To sustain Badwolf's business model, we will also have to continue with the current liberal FT policy and allow in ever larger numbers of foreigners to be exploited by a small elite.

 

[silverfox@]

Goodwolf is a chicken rice stall holder. He runs a chicken rice stall with his aged mother. It is hard work and they work 12 to 15 hours a day. As the stall is their sole source of income, they need to earn at least $3k per month in order to make ends meet. As such, they can afford to pay much less rent than Badwolf.

You know what is the sad thing of your mindset? In order to save on wages, you get your aged mother to help you out. So, let me ask you, will you be paying the same rate as market rate to your aged mother?

Will you pay your mother $15 per hour? And you even ask your aged mother to work 12-15 hours? You are even worst off because you exploit your own aged mother's blood and sweat.

It would be easier if you just answer how much to sell a plate of chicken rice at paying $15 per hour to a stall assistant.

 

[aurvandil]

In order to save on wages, you get your aged mother to help you out. So, let me ask you, will you be paying the same rate as market rate to your aged mother?

Traditionally most hawker stalls are family run affairs. The mother, the father, the wife, the children etc all pitch in to help. Whatever is earned is then shared by the whole family. If the aged mother doesn't want to work and they hire a stall assistant, then the family gets less income at the end of the month.

On the price of chicken rice, the price is not determinded by your factor input. The price is determinded by what the market will bear. Currently 1 plate of chicken rice goes for $2.50 to $3.00. If you charge $5 to $6, no 1 will eat from you. You obviously do not know much about difference between product markets and factor markets. Might want to consider taking a basic Microeconomic enrichment course at one of the Poly if this is an area of interest for you.

If we got rid of all the Badwolf hawker tycoons, microeconomics tells us that the market will adjust and we will have $2.50 to $3.00 chicken rice. The market place for chicken rice will revert to the mom-pop structure of the past. Rentals will fall as we no longer have hawker tycoons chasing up rentals. We will also have a viable employment option that gives decent monthly income to a larger pool of Singaporeans.

 

[eQuipment]

$5/hr as minimum wage is relevant only 10~15yrs ago

$5/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $11440 (annual gross income)
$11440/ 12mths = $953.33/ mth (monthly gross income)
$953.33 x 20% = $190.66 (monthly CPF contirbution)
$953.33 - $190.66 = $762.67 (monthly nett income)

i think by today's standards & rising cost of living. the minimum hourly wage should be rated at or about $15~20/ hr

$15/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $34320 (annual gross income)
$34320 / 12mths = $2860/mth (monthly gross income)
$2860 x 20% = $572 (monthly CPF contribution)
$2860 x $572 = $2288 (monthly nett income)

to anticipate the further incremental rise in costs of living, they should pitch to have minimum hourly wages hover at about $25~30/hr

$25/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $57200 (annual gross income)
$57200 / 12mths = $4766.66 (monthly gross income)
$4766.66 x 20% = $953.33 (monthly CPF contribution)
$4766.66 - $953.33 = $3813.326 (monthly nett income)

by enriching the average man at the bottom tier, multiplied by the population, automatically means the nation is strengthened financially. when people can easily afford things, transactions take place, naturally the economy works out to be lively & positive.

should the time come when GST rises to 15% or 20%, i doubt people will have much to gripe about, since most people can easily afford it.

I like to quote your figures here first and would like to ask if min hourly wage is increased to $15/$20hr, by then how much would a plate of chicken rice cost in hawker centre?

i think our commando fren raised quite a valid point. although i think his representation lacked a little punch.

in order to justify the figures, let's look at the avg monthly fixed costs that sporns r incurring. given his representation rated at $15/hr that amounts to avg $2860/mth.... even if a newly wed couple combines similar income $$2860/mth x 2 = $5720. can they comfortably afford a HDB, or pay through their noses for the next 30-35yrs (incl refinancing towards the end of their loan period, as well as possible decrease in income pegged against age)?

and should either of the spouse lose their income... its game over for them.

needless to say, any income lower than that, living from hand to mouth, no savings for any possible mishaps.

in all, i agree with his sentiments "by enriching the average man at the bottom tier, multiplied by the population, automatically means the nation is strengthened financially. when people can easily afford things, transactions take place, naturally the economy works out to be lively & positive."

 

[silverfox@]

Traditionally most hawker stalls are family run affairs. The mother, the father, the wife, the children etc all pitch in to help. Whatever is earned is then shared by the whole family. If the aged mother doesn't want to work and they hire a stall assistant, then the family gets less income at the end of the month.

This basically sums up everything. Clamouring for minimum wage for workers
But in the end want own family to help out because having own family members don't need to have a minimum wage.

Aren't you contradicting the fight for minimum wage?
That's why I said, people who are very self righteous in saying others exploit workers when actually they exploit their own family members for their blood and sweat and not paying min wage so they don't even need to employ workers at all. No wonder people reaching retirement age can't retire because all have to go and help son, help daughter.

On the price of chicken rice, the price is not determinded by your factor input. The price is determinded by what the market will bear. Currently 1 plate of chicken rice goes for $2.50 to $3.00. If you charge $5 to $6, no 1 will eat from you. You obviously do not know much about difference between product markets and factor markets. Might want to consider taking a basic Microeconomic enrichment course at one of the Poly if this is an area of interest for you.

You just need to count, if you employ a stall assistant for $2800, how many plates of chicken rice at $2.50 you need to sell per day and if there are that many customers who can help your business turnover hit a green figure instead of red.

If you want to work for free and help your worker giving him $2800. By all means you should do that.

If we got rid of all the Badwolf hawker tycoons, microeconomics tells us that the market will adjust and we will have $2.50 to $3.00 chicken rice. The market place for chicken rice will revert to the mom-pop structure of the past. Rentals will fall as we no longer have hawker tycoons chasing up rentals. We will also have a viable employment option that gives decent monthly income to a larger pool of Singaporeans.

Hawker tycoons? Oh please give me a few examples of which stall in Singapore is owned by hawker tycoon and how much their turnover. Do not be mistaken with franchising and sole proprietorship owned. You see a lot of Hup Lee Nasi Lemak stalls all over Singapore doesn't mean all from 1 single boss.

 

[silverfox@]

i think our commando fren raised quite a valid point. although i think his representation lacked a little punch.

Actually I am not against of minimum wage. I am presenting the part where if there is a minimum wage, there will be increases in other areas. It's a cycle. It doesn't just stop when you increase the wages.

Let's say min wage now is $5. And its increased to $10. Everything else will increase. Your company employ you to sell notebooks. Notebooks costing $1200. Your salary is $5 per hour. Now increased to $10. The company will have to find alternative ways to pay the worker extra $5 per hour and there are 2 ways.

Retrench additional workers
or
increase product price so everyone got a job

 

[eQuipment]

Actually I am not against of minimum wage. I am presenting the part where if there is a minimum wage, there will be increases in other areas. It's a cycle. It doesn't just stop when you increase the wages.

Let's say min wage now is $5. And its increased to $10. Everything else will increase. Your company employ you to sell notebooks. Notebooks costing $1200. Your salary is $5 per hour. Now increased to $10. The company will have to find alternative ways to pay the worker extra $5 per hour and there are 2 ways.

Retrench additional workers
or
increase product price so everyone got a job

u're not wrong either. everything revolves in a cycle... chicken & egg paradigm.

problem now is, without a minimum wage, there's a possibility that prices of all things remain very much they same. but........ the people selling the goods r FTs, while sporns who're probably drawing similar wages, cant afford to buy. the stagnant goods become inventory costs for the business owner, he runs out of credit terms with the suppliers, the business goes bust... everybody end up jobless & penniless

 

[williamsF1]

maybe very soon, our national pledge will undergo some addendum "we the citizens.... poverty & regress for our nation"

 

[shunquan]

Traditionally most hawker stalls are family run affairs. The mother, the father, the wife, the children etc all pitch in to help. Whatever is earned is then shared by the whole family. If the aged mother doesn't want to work and they hire a stall assistant, then the family gets less income at the end of the month.

Goodwolf (Dumbwolf actually) should have gone to find a job paying $2,000-$2,500 a month including overtime. Construction site or these places will still pay this kind of money to locals because they need the quota. Hard work, many hours but the money is there.

To help the mother who will be the boss, Dumbwolf should then hire a FW at $900 a month. That puts the family $1,600 ahead. They should save the $1,600 and expand another store. And another store.