Minimum wage: The real work of an opposition

[Liquigas]

Anyway, minimum wage is rather pointless in Singapore. When Singaporeans see a job that is paid very low, most will not want to take it up. The real controversial issue in Singapore is dole a.k.a. unemployment benefits.

Pointless or not is not the issue here. Minimum wage will prevent exploitation of workers by employers.

Paying cleaners $600 pm in present day Sinkapore is a shame!

 

[gbomega]

NTUC 1 month pay $900, Watson $800 for full-time.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

You call it "ideal world", I prefer "reality". If you've a grand plan to eliminate all suffering, do explain. But until then, everyone has to suffer, in one way or another. You could either gloss over the suffering with artificial mechanisms like welfare benefits and minimum wages and incur huge public debts and decreasing the competitiveness of the economy or you could embrace the comparative advantage of having people working in low-paid jobs than to not work at all whilst maintaining the attractiveness of the country to foreign investors. That's how China elevated millions out of poverty. It wasn't Maoism or Socialism that did it. It was capitalism. I'm not a PAPpy btw. I'm an anarcho-capitalist, the exact opposite of the authoritarian PAP.

Eh CB Kia! I never mentioned my or any ideal world! The issue at hand is you distorting truth and saying that those that complained, the lower wage earners should be left as such because they need to suffer in order to be productive and provide to the economy because suffering is a great motivator in your fascist PAPy dog mind.

My reply was then the same should be applied to the elites because if the elites don't suffer then they won't innovate and won't be able to contribute. In fact, the higher up the food chain the more suffering they should receive because innovation from them would be many fold more wide encompassing.

Let's take things one step at a time. Don't confound matters with external realities or distorted realities.

The question is how do we make the elites suffer. And in fact, how do we make them suffer more? Suffering is after all your great motivator.

Sheesh!

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Spoken like the true dog of the dog himself, the MONGREL who bit his masters' hands LOUDHAILER chee soon juan.

66.6% don't agree with you. And it is actually more than 66.6% because the percentage would have been higher in the constituencies the opposition were too chicken to contest. We all know that minimum wage only protects the useless and makes Singapore less productive and less efficient as a whole. GDP for sure will fall.

So take your bleeding heart liberal socialist and communist ideals for fuck off to another country.

You pathetic half-brained worm! Liberal socialism and communism is dead! We want democracy with a capitalist oriented government. Only democracy fueled with capitalism can move mankind ahead.

Fascism, social liberalism, communism are all ideals of scums like yourself, PAP an those that espouse fascist ideals.

 

[Ramseth]

I'm wondering if FTs taking away jobs have been grossly over-exaggerated. Before Singapore imported FTs, we had 3 million and 3% unemployment. Given that another 2 million have joined Singapore (40% increase) unemployment is at most 6% to 7% and not like 43%.

The increase of unemployment from 3% to 6% are practically all Singaporeans by commonsense. There's no such thing as unemployed FTs unless wife of a a rich man, which is non-issue.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

I'm referring to full time. Such as full time cleaners.

I'm wondering if FTs taking away jobs have been grossly over-exaggerated. Before Singapore imported FTs, we had 3 million and 3% unemployment. Given that another 2 million have joined Singapore (40% increase) unemployment is at most 6% to 7% and not like 43%.

However I agree FTs suppressed wages, increased top earners wages, hence creating income gap.

Where have you been? Haven't you read here or heard from family and friends and neighbours who have lost jobs to FTs?

An FT doesn't require CPF. An FT doesn't mind lower wages. An FT doesn't have NS liabilities. And the list goes on.

I find it amusing that you can agree that FTs have suppressed wages but deny that they have taken away jobs from Singaporeans. Hello! If bosses can easily hire a cheaper FT over a Singaporean so easily then doesn't that lead to an FT taking over a job that a Singaporean can perform in?

The suppression of wages for Singaporeans as well as their displacement from jobs by FTs are one and the same problem. They share identical root causes. You can't possibly believe in one and not the other.

That's insane!

 

[CCBcsj]

You pathetic half-brained worm! Liberal socialism and communism is dead! We want democracy with a capitalist oriented government. Only democracy fueled with capitalism can move mankind ahead.

Fascism, social liberalism, communism are all ideals of scums like yourself, PAP an those that espouse fascist ideals.

You are the fascist, refusing to recognise the will of 66.6% of the people who do not, I repeat, do not subscribe to your bleeding heart liberal ideals. And not just in Singapore, this is going to spread across the democratic world.

If claim to be capitalist but expound theories which are totally socialist.

 

[Perspective]

The increase of unemployment from 3% to 6% are practically all Singaporeans by commonsense. There's no such thing as unemployed FTs unless wife of a a rich man, which is non-issue.

Exactly. Entry of 40% FTs will edge out 40% Singaporeans from their jobs, yet obviously this isn't the case in Singapore.

 

[Rogue Trader]

I urge everyone not to only look at the cost aspect of Minimum Wage. Many can't see the flexibility minimum wage brings to the labour market.

Firstly, minimum wage "commoditises" labour, allowing working hours to become a more valuable component in worker's time. This will lead to productivity. For example, small business owners/sole proprietors can take up a 2nd job in the evening to supplement their income. This would be a win-win situation for the worker and the economy.

It will also benefit full time mothers considering re-entering the job market, artists, startup entrepreneurs and students.

 

[yuelao]

Exactly. Entry of 40% FTs will edge out 40% Singaporeans from their jobs, yet obviously this isn't the case in Singapore.

Not if it one Sinkie is replaced by 3 FTs. Why else do you think the productivity is going down the drain? Suddenly, employers realise that they can hire 3 FTs for the same amount to hire 1 Sinkie and still have spare cash left. Yes, the 3 FTs may be able to do more than the Sinkie replaced but this is preventing the businesses from investing and innovating in capital to enable the Sinkie to raise his productivity level. It also makes no sense for the Sinkie to upgrade his skills when the employer has easy access to cheaper labour and he can't even have sufficient job stability to build up his experience. I am not talking about severe recessions, I am talking about businesses being over-eager to cut costs and the next day, your job is gone because the employer is more interested in making an extra buck through cost-cutting rather than thinking through about the intangible or hidden costs. This leads to a cycle where the businesses keep looking to lower their costs instead of thinking of how to increase their revenue stream. Guess who will get the chop next?

The more sinister consequence is that after a while, the skills of the Sinkies start to slide and increasingly, businesses are finding it harder to find suitable Sinkies to fill skilled jobs and it becomes easier for the employed FTs to move up the value chain. Afterall, why should the employer trust a retrained Sinkie versus an experienced FT who has worked in the same field for years and got in because of lower initial wages? Thus, Sinkies find it becoming impossible to move up the value chain because they have been shut out for too long at the low-mid levels.

This is what is called permanent structural unemployment and no amount of upgrading will solve this problem, especially in a society that has high age discrimination. It is a vicious cycle. Sinkies are shut out at the low-mid levels and hence, become unable to move up the levels later, making it a double whammy.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear Perspective

I believe that you are lumping and confusing the numbers exactly as the Gov intents. Do note the following points.

1. Unemployment is calculated on the basis of Citizen and PRs. It does not include S Passes , Work permit holders etc etc. The Latest no had 500,000 Prs who cannot vote staying in Singapore. There is a natural rate of full employment which in Singapore's case is about 3% (unemployment rate ) for various reasons. That is quite near the global average of full rate of employments.


2. The Numbers and increases are due to PRs S Passes and WPs. While it may have kept unemployment down it had done so at the cost of real wages, or growth which benefits no one as GMS has put it not the new poor but the working poor sydndrome affecting the middle class , poly and uni grads.




Locke

 

[ah_phah]

$5/hr as minimum wage is relevant only 10~15yrs ago

$5/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $11440 (annual gross income)
$11440/ 12mths = $953.33/ mth (monthly gross income)
$953.33 x 20% = $190.66 (monthly CPF contirbution)
$953.33 - $190.66 = $762.67 (monthly nett income)

i think by today's standards & rising cost of living. the minimum hourly wage should be rated at or about $15~20/ hr

$15/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $34320 (annual gross income)
$34320 / 12mths = $2860/mth (monthly gross income)
$2860 x 20% = $572 (monthly CPF contribution)
$2860 x $572 = $2288 (monthly nett income)

to anticipate the further incremental rise in costs of living, they should pitch to have minimum hourly wages hover at about $25~30/hr

$25/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $57200 (annual gross income)
$57200 / 12mths = $4766.66 (monthly gross income)
$4766.66 x 20% = $953.33 (monthly CPF contribution)
$4766.66 - $953.33 = $3813.326 (monthly nett income)

by enriching the average man at the bottom tier, multiplied by the population, automatically means the nation is strengthened financially. when people can easily afford things, transactions take place, naturally the economy works out to be lively & positive.

should the time come when GST rises to 15% or 20%, i doubt people will have much to gripe about, since most people can easily afford it.

 

[Equalisation]

So what is your gripe ??:o

 

[Agoraphobic]

Try convincing a toilet cleaner on a $800/mth salary to innovate, perfect and excel. Or better, take a cut from their salary in order to send them for skills upgrading courses and tell them not to be hung up over money but instead aspire towards job satisfaction. Truth is your grandiloquence is typical of opposition-sympathizers: a lot of idealism, little relevance to reality. Which is why as loathsome as the PAPpies are, Singaporeans will always be the proverbial turkeys voting for Christmas, if you know what I mean.

You're looking only at the "job." Toilet cleaning comes under custodial/janitorial services - housekeeping. The contractor should view it as a whole package under his/her contract to provide toilet cleaning and othe services in this category and provide services at a standard that are "one-up" over his competitors. I wonder why Sg toilets are always wet.

This is NOT idealising. I was in the US for a product-launch seminar and was taken to a site where 2 men were all that was needed to prepare and complete a warehouse floor. They did everything from surface prep, product application, testing, and progress report submissions - TWO men. And that included equipment operation and maintenance. In this area, I have witnessed half dozen low-wage foreigh workers in Singapore slopping around the site, lousy workmanship, high material wastage, and the equipment proabably will need readjustment and parts replacements after the abuse it went through! And there was no progress report (on work or material usage) other than an "agarration" from a fudged crap of a report. Lucky it wasn't my project.

Singapore needs to push pass this low-wage competitiveness mindset. Even retail sales attendants in most malls and deparment stores have no tact or initiative. The exception is Robinson's; for how long more, it's up to ya'll.

BTW, your example of a Toilet Cleaner is really funny. Don't tell me you'd employ a worker only to clean toilets and nothing else? S/he might start of as that, but after a month, this person should at least have some idea of what detergent is good for what substrate and condition and be able to feed back to management what works better (and save!) and which areas of the building needs to be worked on first and which later and more down the line.... Without a minimum wage to keep this person, he'll be gone if he's any good and the training and knowledge gained will be gone. Then start with a new bloke again?

Good luck.

Cheers!

 

[redlightmeansgo]

A minimum wage law should be considered for those who have served NS, and their immediate kin.

If the employer is unable to provide this, the difference should be made up by the state.

2k?

If this can materialise, the recipient should heed the sacrifice by the other parties and put in his/her value to the job to be above that salary.

This is for my ex-buddies, and I think it's fair.

Cheers!

I agree. It helps differentiate the local boys from the freeloaders.

After all, who are we protecting at the end of the day? The $9k is short shrift when you do the math.

 

[redlightmeansgo]

Y

This is NOT idealising. I was in the US for a product-launch seminar and was taken to a site where 2 men were all that was needed to prepare and complete a warehouse floor. They did everything from surface prep, product application, testing, and progress report submissions - TWO men.

I was in Japan and Germany not too long ago and I saw how well the engineers there documented their workflow, even in simple things like handing over of info and mechanical parts.

That's why the Japs and Germans make cars, while Sinkies can only buy them.

Sinkieland is nowhere near the real first world standards that MIW would have you believe. They keep these precision things away from the proletariats because such tasks would actually require one to think, to initiate, and solve real problems. I am not surprised it took only two men to rig the warehouse up, and they were most probably trained, and certified even before they were put on the job. And the men are probably paid well because they have to use their brains, something obviously not encouraged in this part of the equator.

In Sinkie, they would have you believe that free market forces would ensure the survival of the economy.

Free market means the lowest bidder wins, and when the lowest bidder gets the job, you will end up with a chain of unqualified pp trying to fit square pegs into round holes. And that's the situation described - sloppy, and shoddy work that goes on ad infinitum (look around you, see the HDB upgrades?). Oh, and with it, FTs rule forever!!!!

 

[redlightmeansgo]

Sinkie the only first world cuntry where 4 different persons in the same industry can draw 4 different amounts of money

 

[Agoraphobic]

It would help also if labels like "laborer" and "worker" be replaced by "artisan" and "tradesman" and these people constantly strive to upgrade their skills and form guilds and associations in the interest of their own trades. Too often people think that decision and direction is the job of management, but sometimes, the little guys have to do this for themselves.

Cheers!

I was in Japan and Germany not too long ago and I saw how well the engineers there documented their workflow, even in simple things like handing over of info and mechanical parts.

That's why the Japs and Germans make cars, while Sinkies can only buy them.

Sinkieland is nowhere near the real first world standards that MIW would have you believe. They keep these precision things away from the proletariats because such tasks would actually require one to think, to initiate, and solve real problems. I am not surprised it took only two men to rig the warehouse up, and they were most probably trained, and certified even before they were put on the job. And the men are probably paid well because they have to use their brains, something obviously not encouraged in this part of the equator.

In Sinkie, they would have you believe that free market forces would ensure the survival of the economy.

Free market means the lowest bidder wins, and when the lowest bidder gets the job, you will end up with a chain of unqualified pp trying to fit square pegs into round holes. And that's the situation described - sloppy, and shoddy work that goes on ad infinitum (look around you, see the HDB upgrades?). Oh, and with it, FTs rule forever!!!!

 

[silverfox@]

$5/hr as minimum wage is relevant only 10~15yrs ago

$5/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $11440 (annual gross income)
$11440/ 12mths = $953.33/ mth (monthly gross income)
$953.33 x 20% = $190.66 (monthly CPF contirbution)
$953.33 - $190.66 = $762.67 (monthly nett income)

i think by today's standards & rising cost of living. the minimum hourly wage should be rated at or about $15~20/ hr

$15/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $34320 (annual gross income)
$34320 / 12mths = $2860/mth (monthly gross income)
$2860 x 20% = $572 (monthly CPF contribution)
$2860 x $572 = $2288 (monthly nett income)

to anticipate the further incremental rise in costs of living, they should pitch to have minimum hourly wages hover at about $25~30/hr

$25/hr x 8hrs x 5.5days x 52wks = $57200 (annual gross income)
$57200 / 12mths = $4766.66 (monthly gross income)
$4766.66 x 20% = $953.33 (monthly CPF contribution)
$4766.66 - $953.33 = $3813.326 (monthly nett income)

by enriching the average man at the bottom tier, multiplied by the population, automatically means the nation is strengthened financially. when people can easily afford things, transactions take place, naturally the economy works out to be lively & positive.

should the time come when GST rises to 15% or 20%, i doubt people will have much to gripe about, since most people can easily afford it.

I like to quote your figures here first and would like to ask if min hourly wage is increased to $15/$20hr, by then how much would a plate of chicken rice cost in hawker centre?

 

[silverfox@]

I was in Japan and Germany not too long ago and I saw how well the engineers there documented their workflow, even in simple things like handing over of info and mechanical parts.

That's why the Japs and Germans make cars, while Sinkies can only buy them.

Japs and Germans have to make cars to sell them. Singapore don't need to make any car, just need to sell 1 paper called COE:p