Legalise the Triad and Secret Societies in S'pore

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

You're confusing between triads and street gangs. Most traditional triads were headed by registered clan association elders and merchants with registered businesses. The men weren't idling and waiting for a fight, extortion or robbery; they were labourers like coolies, drivers etc. The forming of triads was like having a disciplined NS, for protecting interests and livelihoods, just in case. And yes, there'd been cases, there'd be brutes and rascals forming street gangs to try to bully for money without working.

We seem to have a disagreement on categorization. I see that you mean clan associations whlie the rest of us are talking about Triads/SS as the thread title states.

Clan associations may include triad members in their midst but their setup and agenda are totally different from triads. Two totally different things with minor similarities.

 

[Ramseth]

We seem to have a disagreement on categorization. I see that you mean clan associations whlie the rest of us are talking about Triads/SS as the thread title states.

Clan associations may include triad members in their midst but their setup and agenda are totally different from triads. Two totally different things with minor similarities.

Clan associations have always been legal and registered. Triads never were, hence a.k.a. secret societies. That's because of violence and weapons involved, whether defensive or offensive. Most triads were formed by clan association elders and merchants with their coolies, known to but tolerated by the colonial government, as a good way of controlling the young and reskless but penniless. Any disturbance, the colonial officers just had to call up the triad leaders to whip them into line.

After independence, all changed. It's an independent republic. The government wanted full control. Most clan associations broke away their controls and links with the triads under government pressure. So nowadays, these are triads in names and symbolic numbers, but not in purpose, practice and spirit. Gradually and inevitable, it turned into street hooliganism.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Darkside of human nature is not permanent. It can change with the right incentive which is almost always $$$$$ and more $$$$$$$. Before the brothels were legalised in Geylang, these pimps, for the sake of making a living, were terrible chaps - hooligans and rascals.

When the police "invited" them to be legal pimps, they took the challenge and soon realised that the licensed brothel biz was better than striking 4D. Averagely, you are looking at 30k monthly for the OKT.

The easy $ made will always be gone coz these pimps love to gamble on anything under the sun - horse, dogs, matchsticks, soccer, pai kow, see kee puay etc.

My point is, when you stand to lose greatly, whatever you have or soon will have, you tend to be on your best behavior for fear of losing your pot of gold.
Many SS and triad chaps also converted to Christianity while in jail and remain goody goody after release. Some became counsellors and pastors.

Nothing is permanent. Darkside can change to brightside and vice versa.

Let's not confuse legalizing an entity such as SS and legalizing their hitherto criminal activities. You seem to think that by allowing the SS to become legal businesses they will stop committing their criminal activities.

You have provided evidence only pertaining to prostitution. There are other vices that the SS partakes in. For now, let's look at the prostitution.

Those running legal dens are also involved with those running illegal dens and street corners prostitutes. Those running legal dens get to know anti-vice cops and introduce these cops to those running illegal prostitution dens.

Central to all of this is the procurement of women into the vice trade and te corruption of officials from anti-vice to immigration officials.

Then you have girls at the higher end clubs. Do you categorize them as prostitutes or bar girls?

As long as there is easy money to be made, human nature will find a way to perform the task even if it is physically dangerous or involves a crime. There is always someone willing to perform the task.

Even you have mentioned that after earning 30K per house, the bosses will still find that money is insufficient to feed their livestyle.

The root of the problem isn't the law but the morality of the people involved. Your issue is actually the law and not the morals of the people involved and this is where you fail to see the true picture, the nature of human nature.

Much much better policing and anti-corruption programmes and better and consistent moral education is the only way to lessen the impact of SS and their activities on our lives.

The amount of prostitution and drugs on the streets can be reduced by up to 90% if a strong anti-corruption programme is established together with stricter laws that allows the state to confiscate assets of those that are found to be involved in the drug trade or vice.

It is actually quite simple. It is similar as stopping politicians and highly placed civil servants from committing corruption, all that needs to be done is to have them declare their assets once every two years. All is easy but under the PAP regime, such things will never happen for whatever reason that only they know.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Clan associations have always been legal and registered. Triads never were, hence a.k.a. secret societies. That's because of violence and weapons involved, whether defensive or offensive. Most triads were formed by clan association elders and merchants with their coolies, known to but tolerated by the colonial government, as a good way of controlling the young and reskless but penniless. Any disturbance, the colonial officers just had to call up the triad leaders to whip them into line.

After independence, all changed. It's an independent republic. The government wanted full control. Most clan associations broke away their controls and links with the triads under government pressure. So nowadays, these are triads in names and symbolic numbers, but not in purpose, practice and spirit. Gradually and inevitable, it turned into street hooliganism.

There must be a reason why they are called Secret Societies and not clan associations. History will always find a link because as I have mentioned, they do have similar members but most certainly to say they are one and the same is foolish.

It is as foolish as to say that someone who coughs must have pneumonia.

SS today is not hooliganism. It is a business mechanism. What you see are the soldiers in action. What you see is the best weapon they have to induce other kids to join an SS - protection.

If you go to RTC, you will be amazed at the number there as a result of slashing cases and all inevitably involve SS. Older soldiers deal in small amounts of drugs and these normally get sent to the 'big house' on their second or third incarceration.

SS to exist, require these soldiers. If you are running an SS, the newspaper reports will only make you snigger. To the layperson they are terrified and thinking what is happening to society today. But these incidents have bene happening with a ridiculous amount of frequency for the past many years but the 154th never saw it in them to report these cases.

 

[GoldenDragon]

what is WL??

Working ladies aka prostitutes.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Those running legal dens are also involved with those running illegal dens and street corners prostitutes. Those running legal dens get to know anti-vice cops and introduce these cops to those running illegal prostitution dens.

Those legal operators may know the illegal pimps but I am pretty sure the legal chaps aren't involved with the illegall pimps, business wise. There is no incentive for them to get involved with the illegal pimps. At most, the illegal pimps could be supplying girls to the legal chaps.

As to the connection between legal pimps, illegal pimps and anti-vice chaps, there may be this possibilty but I opine it is low.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

http://news.asiaone.com/News/The+New+Paper/Story/A1Story20101115-247385.html

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[TD="class: content_subtitle, align: left"] Tue, Nov 16, 2010
The New Paper [/TD]

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[TD="colspan: 3"] 'These youngsters fight over nothing' [/TD]
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[TD="class: bodytext_10pt, colspan: 3"] By Maureen Koh and Gan Ling Kai
EVEN the old guard of the underworld past - most of whom have since given up and moved on with their lives - is upset with what has been happening recently.
Their sentiments were best summed up in the words of one of eight former gang members The New
Paper on Sunday spoke with this past week.
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[TD="class: bodytext"]» Tracing the origins of Singapore gangs[/TD]
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[TD="class: bodytext"]» History of gang violence[/TD]
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"They (the so-called new breed of gang members) are like dogs. If you don't toilet-train them properly when they're young, they will just s*** wherever they want,and do whatever they want."
Unanimous in the view that gangs, and their illegal activities, are not the way to go, they could not help but feel sorry for the youngsters of today who have no reason to do what they are doing.
They said that in their time, gangs didn't go about slashing people over trivial matters.
Then, it was all about money - running the businesses. There was none of the senseless violence that has hogged the headlines in recent weeks.
In separate interviews with The New Paper on Sunday team, the "old guard" spoke of how "talk comes before fight".
We are not using their real names at their request as they have moved on.
Sam, in his late 30s, who claimed he was "like a 'general manager' with about 10 guys", used to run a coffee shop.
He said: "These days, many of these youngsters fight over nothing. Even if they're caught, they're usually charged with rioting.
"They just go "sit" (under detention) for two or three years, so they're not afraid."
After some thought, and a shake of the head, he repeated: "They (the new breed of gang members) are like dogs."
Chye, 50, agreed, saying that back then gang members "didn't whack people just because we 'buay song' (not happy in Hokkien)".
No order
He added: "We fought for a reason - for the territories (money-making spots), for the 'heah di' (brothers)
who were bullied."
Most importantly, John, 57, said: "We didn't do stupid things to put ourselves within the radar of the
police."
In comparison, today's street corner teens have no order, no management.
Sam said: "Some of these young punks just want to fight and make a name for themselves.
"Their leaders don't mind because the fights could make the gangs famous. So, it really depends on whom
they follow."
Seng, 60, who used to command a gang of 50 underlings, used to operate gambling dens and brothels in Chinatown.
He said: "Most of my men were your typical gangsters who came from poor family backgrounds. We shared the same objective - to make the bucks. So, they worked hard for me."
The traditional gangs had organised structures and focused primarily on making money through loan-sharking, prostitution and gambling dens.
Some "business ventures" have today evolved into bookie syndicates accepting bets, providing "cleaning
services" in return for protection money and selling pirated or pornographic VCDs and DVDs.
More tech-savvy gangs have also turned to the Internet and engage in online pimping, which became more
prevalent about seven years ago.
Peter, 52, reckons that the random recruitment of members also "contributes to the current mess".
He said: "Any Ah Beng, Ah Seng and Ah Heng can just intro(duce) their Tom, Dick and Harry friends to
join as 'brothers' (gang lingo for members).
"Sometimes, even the top level does not know who their 'kar kiah' (underlings) are."
Hock, 55, agreed: "Some (of the gangs) are divided into small 'sub-divisions'. Often, 'the lion does not know what the monkeys are doing'. They only find out when 'dai ji dua diao' (big trouble)."
Jimmy, in his late 20s, said: "I understand that some of the old guard are angry with the youths who get into senseless fights because they draw unnecessary attention.
"The old guard is concerned because they're already on the blacklist of the SSB."
The SSB is the Secret Societies Branch of the Criminal Investigations Department.
Jimmy said: "But what can they (the old guard) do? Nothing."
He added that while many of the young members today come from broken families, some of them are rich kids studying in top schools.
"They are the ones who have too much time, and they want access to drugs and the women, such as the KTV girls," he said.
Fights can happen too when the "hot-blooded" want to gain attention or recognition from their peers or leaders.
He added: "Yes, hacking someone is scary. But once someone starts to swing the knife, the rest just join in. Adrenaline will take over."
While Chye made it clear that he was not condoning the existence of gangs, he felt that some of them should
"review their management style".
"The young ones must learn to respect the hierarchy. They can't 'suka suka' (happily) whack people," he said.
"What happened to the negotiation process? Look, times may have changed but certain practices should
still remain, right?"

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[da dick]

It may sound radical, crazy and absurd but I humbly opine it may work - let's register our triads and secret societies under the Registrar of Societies. This way, we will "unsecret" the secret. We will better manage and contain the disease that is now spreading.

Prostitution and gambling are vices that will not be completely eliminated. They have a long history. Let's examine how the police adapted to manage these two vices.

Yes, we have Geylang, Petain Rd and Keong Siak St to cater to the various classes of people who need a release. Malaysian women filled the vacancies in the past. Since the late 90s when PRC women proliferated, it took the police about 8 years before an appropriate response.

When the WLs started congregating in the lorongs of Geylang, whereby various SS would collect protection money from these WLs, police decided that to contain the problem, they had no choice but to finally relent and permit PRC sex workers in Geylang brothels.

Where you have approx 400 WLs standing and soliciting in the lorongs of Geylang in the past, the numbers have shrunk drastically today. How come? Coz the police recognised the need and legalised PRC sex workers in designated brothels. Lesser raids needed. Manpower can be redirected to fight crime. Brothel keepers, customers, legalised sex workers and police all emerge as winners. Indirectly, members of public too coz they get more value from their taxes whereby police resources are not used inappropriately.

Legalising the prostitution trade many years ago contained the vice problem then. Recognising the need to legalise PRC sex workers contained the current status quo.

Let's move on to illegal gambling and illegal lotteries. When the situation escalated and got out of control, what did the police do? They legalised this business to combat the illegal bookies and 4D syndicates by opening up legal avenues to bet and punt. S'pore Pools has many outlets and they are geographically well spread. Very strategic locations indeed.

Take the illegal gambling problems as an example. After decades of denial, haven't we finally given in? We legalised our problems pretty effectively. We have RWS and MBS today to combat the problems of our chaps going to cruise ships and Genting Highlands. Of course, for the 2 IRs, there are other economic benefits too, directly and indirectly.

We now even have access to soccer betting. It started "foot-in-the-door" style with only S-League first. Then graduated to World Cup and others and then to EPL. Now, it is almost everything under the sun.

The ah long problem is also being dealt in similar manner. The ah longs with 20% interest of the past is now finally legalised. As long as lender and borrower agrees, the deal is set. You can even charge 100% monthly interest and it is legal! We had the law amended recently to permit licensed moneylenders to charge the traditional ah long rates and more.

What's wrong with legalising the SS and Triad? You get to monitor its members through registration. You get better command and control over something you have lost control of. The SS/Triad can go to legit biz and its followers can find job opportunities within their organisational structure. Yellow Ribbon project sure to be successful.

They can even form alliances to get better economies of scale in their businesses. They can even have their own disciplinary committees to handle wayward behavior like the recent stabbing and slashing. If there is a dispute that cannot be resolved, why use knives and kill here and there. Get their two best fighters to fight it out in the boxing ring. Who knows we may uncover a gem in a talented boxer who can win us medals in the Asian or Commonwealth Games. Maybe even an Olympic gold medal.

It may well sound crazy but it is worth some thoughts. Earlier use of this - legalising the illegal, has been quite successful, as the three examples illustrated above shows. If problem cannot be contained effectively, why pretend it is under control?

Legalise it to contain and combat the problem. Make sure all parties involved are on a win-win mode. The economic benefits of such a move will force the senior headmen of these triads and SS to behave like the legal OKTs in Geylang - fully compliant. The loss of such benefits is so severe these headmen will behave like religious leaders.

For Mr Ramseth who is of the view that education and upbringing failures should be blamed for many of these problems, no problem. Problem will now be rectified with 369 School of Ethics and Anger Management, Pak Hai Tong School of Stress, Sio Gi Ho Business School, Ang Soon Tong School of Discipline etc. These schools will ensure that whatever faults of our traditional schools and upbringing will be effectively rectified.

alreadie leaglised. just join PAP. lanjiao way....

 

[frenchbriefs]

There is already enough losers and useless sinkies on this island,a sinkie triad is a collection of the biggest losers in the universe.can we legalise mauwie wowie instead.

 

[shittypore]

Leegalise corruptions are oridi legal. The triad and secret societies here are the biggest supporters of PAP through the grassroots organisation, many of Sinkies are still in dreamland.

 

[spotter542]

There is already enough losers and useless sinkies on this island,a sinkie triad is a collection of the biggest losers in the universe.can we legalise mauwie wowie instead.

Sour Diesel and Hawaiian Snow will be good too :p

 

[Leckmichamarsch]

they are already leegalised......... datz why they won GE big time

 

[enterprise2]

Legalise crime?? Like the Mafia in Italy or Yakuza in Japan?? Don't think we r ready for this bro!