• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Just to check = so unvaxxed people still can go to malls until 19 Oct ??

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
Perhaps you should burn your license

I have never seen a doctor who is so meek and with so little pride . NUS grad some more

good thing you fled to Canada

yeah good thing I did.

Sorry. I didnt start out this way as a young doctor. But over the years have been pummeled into submission. NUS grad? At least Canadian Drs know where Singapore is. I met some in USA and they thought Singapore is in China.

But I think this meekness has served me well. I managed to get back into residency, cleared my residency doing pretty well (basically I knew how to play the game). Keeping out of trouble. Earning income I wasn't expecting when I moved to Canada (really would have been quite satisfied with earning like $30/hr kind of lower end jobs). All good. I should be contented.
 

dredd

Alfrescian
Loyal
As a Dr or as a citizen?

I actually think that as a Dr my rights are much much much severely eroded than as a normal citizen.

Medical Colleges also insist that Dr is a Dr even when not at work. So basically if Dr got licence I got to kowtow to everyone lah.

I await the day I can burn my medical licence. It will feel like Superman getting his powers back.
Bro, my personal opininion: I think patient autonomy and basic professional responsibility are two very separate things altogether. As a doctor you should take the stand of science and not kowtow to the wishes of your patients who look to you for guidance. It's not everyone's cup of tea to be able to stand up to this responsibility I know, but as a professional you need to offer advice based on science and data and not just let your patients be free to make their own medical judgements. Most of them don't know better and that is why they seek medical advice.

Your personality type seems to suggest that you are not suitable to be a doctor. To tell someone who is obviously a nutcase, spreading lies and misinformation, that you respect his "decision" is clearly not right and responsible behaviour and emboldens him to do more damage and spread more shit to the gullible. When all the science and data overwhelmingly show vaccinations to prevent death and serious illness, rejecting vaccinations is no longer about science. It's something else. But you are a doctor and not someone who goes along with these conspiracy theorists, simply because conspiracy theories have no scientific or medical basis.

You can evaluate from the mindsets of some forummers here. Some have low IQ or are deluded, most are a misguided bunch and their reasons for rejecting vaccinations are mostly because of their extreme hatred for the MIW who they somehow believe are responsible for their misery. All this is made worse by the likes of a few opportunists who are "gaslighting" their delusions, preying on their gullibility for whatever reasons they may have. These are clearly not good people, offering nothing but CT as you can see from their posts. To go with their crazy CT is unconscionable for anyone, let alone a medical doctor. But I know why you play along with these crazies. It's because you are the type that does not like to be confrontational. Bro, sometimes, it's not about avoiding confrontations but about standing up for what's right.

I always try to do what I think is right and at the end of the day after all of this is behind us, at least I can I can stand upright and say that I stood up for truth and what I did what was right.

Just saying... don't get angry hor... :tongue:
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
Bro, my personal opininion: I think patient autonomy and basic professional responsibility are two very separate things altogether. As a doctor you should take the stand of science and not kowtow to the wishes of your patients who look to you for guidance. It's not everyone's cup of tea to be able to stand up to this responsibility I know, but as a professional you need to offer advice based on science and data and not just let your patients be free to make their own medical judgements. Most of them don't know better and that is why they seek medical advice.

Your personality type seems to suggest that you are not suitable to be a doctor. To tell someone who is obviously a nutcase, spreading lies and misinformation, that you respect his "decision" is clearly not right and responsible behaviour and emboldens him to do more damage and spread more shit to the gullible. When all the science and data overwhelmingly show vaccinations to prevent death and serious illness, rejecting vaccinations is no longer about science. It's something else. But you are a doctor and not someone who goes along with these conspiracy theorists, simply because conspiracy theories have no scientific or medical basis.

You can evaluate from the mindsets of some forummers here. Some have low IQ or are deluded, most are a misguided bunch and their reasons for rejecting vaccinations are mostly because of their extreme hatred for the MIW who they somehow believe are responsible for their misery. All this is made worse by the likes of a few opportunists who are "gaslighting" their delusions, preying on their gullibility for whatever reasons they may have. These are clearly not good people, offering nothing but CT as you can see from their posts. To go with their crazy CT is unconscionable for anyone, let alone a medical doctor. But I know why you play along with these crazies. It's because you are the type that does not like to be confrontational. Bro, sometimes, it's not about avoiding confrontations but about standing up for what's right.

I always try to do what I think is right and at the end of the day after all of this is behind us, at least I can I can stand upright and say that I stood up for truth and what I did what was right.

Just saying... don't get angry hor... :tongue:
Thanks dredd.

I know what you mean. I would also think that is how medicine works and how a Dr should do.

But my experience with the College is that it DOES NOT work like that.

You wont realize it until you get a complaint and you have to go through your case with the Medical Malpractice people.

The principles of patient autonomy and non maleficence hold true.

Do no harm. I do draw the boundaries. If any decision causes harm and is clear and obvious harm and against the guidelines then no way jose. I cannot do it. I also cannot perform inaction if there is cause to do so. Eg if someone is unfit to drive or an epileptic patient refuses to take his meds it is my duty to report.

But medicine is about a lot of grey.

You probablydisagree with me on how I respond to the anti vaxxers like @JHolmesJr . There is a difference between me agreeing with their fake science and misinformation ans respecting their individual rights to make informed consent. Respecting their right to refuse does not mean I endorse or agree with their logic or misinformation. On the other hand if I choose not to show them respect that is when it becomes unbecoming of the Dr.

Do not mistake the style and bravado of Drs coming here to slam and insult people as being "normal" or "ballsy". In real life you will not see this often especially among senior experienced Drs. Always find common ground. Do no harm. Keep lines of communication open. Do not harm the dr patient relationship by being dismissive and disrespectful.

This line of conversation reminds me of the debates I have had with my father. He is old school and listens to his doctor except when the dr tells him he doesnt need antibiotics for his cold then he tells the dr off. Lol.

Timea have changed.

I will share this with you from the CMPA.


https://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/en/advice-...-and-addressing-vaccine-hesitancy-and-refusal


Vaccinating: Doing it safely, and addressing vaccine hesitancy and refusal​

Girl receiving vaccine injection in left arm

Published: June 2021
The information in this article was correct at the time of publishing
21-08-E

Vaccines are valuable in preventing and controlling infectious diseases,1 and have saved countless lives.2 During the COVID-19 pandemic, the development and distribution of vaccines has been a major focus in the battle against the virus.
Physicians who provide vaccinations should be aware of their obligations, including giving patients, or their legal guardians, sufficient information about recommended vaccines so they can make informed decisions. The National Advisory Committee on Immunization is a helpful resource on recommended vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines.3
While the value of vaccines is accepted by many people, some still debate their necessity, efficacy, and safety. This may present challenges for physicians who know a particular vaccine is indicated and appropriate, but the patient or the patient’s legal guardian is hesitant about or refuses the vaccine. Physicians should consider how to address vaccination hesitancy and refusal.
For more information specific to issues related to COVID-19 vaccines, see the CMPA COVID-19 Hub.

Discussing vaccines with patients and obtaining informed consent​

When physicians determine a specific vaccine would benefit a patient and recommend it, the clinician must obtain the patient’s or legal guardian’s informed consent before administering the vaccination. In most cases, the informed consent discussion might include:
  • benefits of the vaccine
  • risks of the vaccine (including material risks and uncommon risks with serious consequences, such as paralysis or death)
  • risks of the disease including complications
  • possible consequences of refusing the vaccine
  • relevant recommendations from authoritative groups, governments, provincial/territorial medical regulatory authorities (Colleges), and medical specialty associations and federations
  • need for follow up, for example if immunization requires a series of doses
  • any cost of the vaccine if it is not covered by the provincial or territorial health plan
If the patient (or the patient’s legal guardian) chooses to have the vaccine, physicians should inform them of common side effects and complications, and what to do if these occur. In the case of COVID-19 vaccines, for example, where the products were quickly deployed, there was an opportunity for disclosing that not all of the possible side effects of these products are known. (Regularly updated medico-legal information specific to COVID-19 vaccination may be found on the CMPA COVID-19 Hub..)

The need to document​

Once the informed consent discussion has taken place, the details of the discussion and the patient’s (or legal guardian’s) consent to the vaccine should be documented in the patient’s medical record and/or a designated provincial/territorial record. The consent process is more than completing a specific form; it is a conversation, as described previously. Any consent form the physician relies on should also be kept in the medical record and/or a designated provincial/territorial record.
The Public Health Agency of Canada’s Canadian Immunization Guide recommends that healthcare providers record vaccinations in the following: the immunization record held by the vaccine recipient (or legal guardian); the patient’s personal health record maintained by the healthcare provider who administered the vaccine; and the local provincial or territorial immunization registry, if one has been established.4
To help patients (or their guardians) manage their vaccinations, including keeping a record of vaccinations they’ve received, physicians may want to make them aware of resources such as those on the websites of Health Canada, the Public Health Agency of Canada, and Immunize Canada.

The need to follow up​

In some instances, adequate immunization requires a series of doses (such as certain COVID-19 vaccines). Before administering the first dose, physicians should talk with patients or legal guardians about the importance of obtaining all doses on the recommended immunization schedule. Physicians should be aware of the immunization schedules in their province or territory and discuss with patients any risks with delaying doses.5 It may be appropriate to have a system to follow up with patients who do not return for subsequent doses, and to document the steps taken and the response.

When patients or legal guardians are hesitant or refuse vaccinations​

While routine immunizations are recommended to prevent certain infectious diseases3,6 and most people accept routine vaccination, some still refuse or delay it for themselves or their children.7,8,9 Public health officials and studies are concerned that vaccine hesitancy and refusal will increase the risk of epidemics of vaccine-preventable illnesses.10,11,12
If patients (or legal guardians) are reluctant about a vaccine, physicians should explore and address the reasons for their reluctance, answer any questions to the best of their ability, and consider referring patients or guardians to other relevant resources for information.5 For example, physicians could direct hesitant parents to the Canadian Paediatric Society’s website (caringforkids.cps.ca
Opens in new window
), or to #ScienceUpFirst, a hashtag used by an organization of independent scientists to present science-based information through social media posts.
Physicians should be empathetic and respectful, and remind patients or guardians that their best interests (or those of their child) are the primary concern.5 Helpful articles13 and resources are available, such as the 2018 Practice Point from the Canadian Paediatric Society, "Working with vaccine-hesitant parents," which provides useful evidence-based approaches on how to communicate effectively.5
Physicians should make every effort to continue to care for patients in the existing doctor-patient relationship in accordance with current standards of care.14 For assistance with caring for patients who are reluctant about a vaccine, physicians should consult with their College and other organizations such as the Canadian Paediatric Society. For medico-legal questions, physicians should contact the CMPA.
Despite good explanations, parents and/or legal guardians may still refuse to consent to the vaccination of their children. Except in Québec, physicians should generally respect an informed decision by a child who they consider to be a mature minor and capable of understanding the risks of refusing the vaccination. In Québec, the law generally only permits children 14 years of age and older to consent to care.15 Physicians should document the wishes of the minor and the parent, if known, in the medical record along with the physician’s assessment of the child’s capacity to consent and understanding of the risks.15
If a vaccine is recommended, but refused, a detailed note of both the consent discussion and the refusal should be made in the medical record. The physician should also keep the lines of communication open for future discussions about immunization and consider directing the patient or legal guardian to a trusted source of reliable information.5
Physicians may be troubled if a patient refuses a vaccine solely for reasons of cost. The patient or legal guardian can be advised to contact their provincial/territorial health ministry on programs and assistance available for vaccinations.
In exceptional circumstances where a patient (or a patient’s legal guardian) has refused immunization, but the vaccine is medically appropriate and necessary to preserve the life or health of the child, it may be necessary to contact child protection agencies. For information on child protection agencies across Canada, physicians can refer to the Canadian Child Welfare Research Portal
Opens in new window
.16 Physicians may also wish to contact the CMPA for advice.

Questions on vaccine alternatives​

Patients (or legal guardians) may have questions about alternatives to routine vaccines, such as unproven homeopathic therapies.17 To respond appropriately, primary care physicians and those practising in related areas should stay up to date on relevant or common vaccines, their effectiveness, significant risks, and the risks if the diseases are not prevented. Physicians should be prepared to communicate clearly and professionally with patients or legal guardians on the matter and keep in mind that a healthcare provider’s advice generally has significant influence on decision-making for vaccines.5

Treating unvaccinated patients​

Physicians with unvaccinated patients should consider arranging their office to reduce any risks from these patients coming into contact with vulnerable patients, such as those with suppressed immune systems or those who have not yet received vaccinations. Scheduling appointments at different times of the day or week to treat each type of patient could be one approach. Physicians should encourage unvaccinated patients or their legal guardians to inform healthcare providers they come in contact with that they are not fully immunized. These steps are especially important in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic.

The bottom line​

  • Tell patients or their legal guardians about the benefits and significant risks of recommended vaccines, and the risks if the disease is not prevented.
  • Have a robust informed consent discussion when recommending new vaccines, such as COVID-19/ vaccines.
  • Be familiar with your province’s or territory’s immunization schedules and legislation, and your College’s policies on vaccination.
  • Document the information you give patients and their responses in the medical record and/or designated provincial/territorial record (including their reasons for refusing the vaccine).
  • Document in the medical record the vaccines discussed with, refused by, or administered to patients.
  • Patients or legal guardians have the right to accept or refuse the vaccine. Be patient and empathetic to their needs and beliefs, and keep the lines of communication open.
  • Follow up with patients to complete the course of immunization, if required, and document the steps taken.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
This topic about how best to and best not to deal with vaccine hesitancy has been written up a lot already.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/primary-care-physicians-get-vaccine-hesitancy-roadmap

Alberta primary-care physicians get vaccine hesitancy roadmap​

The Vaccine Hesitancy Guide was developed in order to help physicians approach often-thorny conversations with compassion

Author of the article:
Jason Herring
Publishing date:
Jul 22, 2021 • July 22, 2021 • 4 minute read • 10 Comments
Pharmacist Alison Davison prepares a dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine at Shoppers Drug Mart pharmacy on 17 Ave. S.W. in Calgary on Friday, March 5, 2021.
Pharmacist Alison Davison prepares a dose of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine at Shoppers Drug Mart pharmacy on 17 Ave. S.W. in Calgary on Friday, March 5, 2021. PHOTO BY AZIN GHAFFARI/POSTMEDIA
Family physicians and other primary-care doctors were “thrust into” the role of being vaccine counsellors throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, University of Calgary researchers say.

It’s that responsibility that spurred a team at the university’s School of Public Policy to create the Vaccine Hesitancy Guide, a road map to help doctors navigate difficult conversations with patients who have reservations about being immunized against the novel coronavirus


To date in Alberta, 75 per cent of those aged 12 and over who are eligible for a COVID-19 vaccine have received at least one dose, and 61.3 per cent have had both necessary shots. The province launched a $5-million advertising campaign in May to encourage people to get vaccinated, running ads online and in public spaces, as well as sending out mailers to all homes.

A more personal, targeted approach could help boost immunization rates in Alberta, said Myles Leslie, a School of Public Policy assistant professor who helped create the Vaccine Hesitancy Guide.


“There’s an extremely large campaign done at the aggregate level to address vaccine hesitancy issues and concerns across the country. But billboards and even social media are not able to talk directly to people, and are not able to pivot as much as we wish they could for what people are actually thinking and feeling in the moment,” Leslie said during a Wednesday webinar.

“Revisiting a topic with someone who not only has medical expertise but is seen as a trusted expert in areas of health and well-being is sort of the absolute inverse of a billboard.”

Not all primary-care experts are trained or equipped to talk to patients about specific concerns with COVID-19 vaccines, however. Leslie said his team developed the Vaccine Hesitancy Guide to help physicians approach the often-thorny conversations with compassion.

On accessing the guide, physicians are greeted with bold text asking, “Are your patients hesitant about getting a COVID-19 vaccine?”

From there, they can look up various “hesitancy types” identified by researchers, ranging from those with specific hesitancies — such as concerns over safety or misinformation, including worries an mRNA vaccine could alter their DNA — to broader hesitancies about the vaccine or the severity of the pandemic. Advice is also offered for people who have a fear of needles and those who mistrust the health-care system due to historical traumas.

A physician’s goal should not be to immediately change their patient’s mind, but to start a dialogue, Leslie said.

The goal is, ‘I will continue to talk to you, and I may think more about it.’ The goal is contemplation rather than action,” he said. “You are not a salesperson. You are an ally. To be an ally is not to force or sell, it is to be alongside and understand.”

Alberta leads Canada in vaccine hesitancy rates, according to a July 13 Angus Reid survey .

According to the survey, 22 per cent of Albertans are either unwilling to get vaccinated or unsure if they will. That’s twice the national average of 11 per cent

Raad Fadaak, a School of Public Policy researcher who helped develop the guide, said while it was developed for physicians, it is open to anyone and could be used as a tool in personal conversations as well.

“This goes for clinicians, not just physicians, but it also goes for people in the public, talking to family members and others,” Fadaak said.

The Vaccine Hesitancy Guide can be accessed online at vhguide.ca .
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
@dredd you might find some of the stuff below SHOCKING to you. I am trained as a family physician. These things we practiced a lot during residency. And I mean A LOT.

https://www.vhguide.ca/pearls

Clinical Pearls
Here you will find peer-to-peer advice on how to approach and conduct vaccine hesitancy conversations. Fellow clinicians describe their approaches to:
Affirming you’re an ally by:
  • Listening closely and reflectively
  • Affirming their patient’s worldview
  • Drawing their patient in
  • Finding a shared, positive goal
  • Desensitize, then Motivate
Lowering the ‘temperature’ by:
  • Checking yourself on the way into the conversation
  • De-escalating, and
  • Extending the conversation

Listen closely and reflectively

A key first step really is to hear — really hear — their concern and be able to say ‘That sounds like a reasonable concern.’ Right? If you can say that, all of a sudden you're allied with the patient. So you ask the open question, then you reflect back and affirm their point of view, telling them, ‘Yeah, that's a reasonable concern.

For a Motivational Interview to work, the first step is to ask those open questions. And no matter what the answers are, you have to be able to reflect back and affirm what they say. If you can't do that, then you're not on their side. You're just another person who is in their out-group. Another person who doesn't get how their world works.


Affirm their worldview


A patient might say something that's totally Looney Tunes up front. On the inside you're thinking, ‘Well, that's just completely nuts!’ But if you can't explore it further — listen and affirm that it's coming from a real place in their lives — if you can't do that, then there's no opportunity for a conversation. You've declared you're not their ally.


When you're an ally the conversation becomes about exploring options. You're not trying to win a battle. You're just trying to get them into a more contemplative state where they actually are open to thinking about alternative explanations.



You never really know anyone else's experiences or traumas. Knowing this, it's best to approach conversations as doors that can be opened or shut. If you say something to shut a door — call people's experiences or perspectives out as uninformed or silly — there's the good chance that the door never opens again. It can be so hard, but affirming experiences and perspectives — even when they conflict with your own — is the way to keep doors open. You might not have a ‘yes’ to vaccination today, but you can't get closer to your patient thinking about it in a positive light if you shut the door.

Work with your patient as a team member

It's better to be honest if you don't know something. In fact, in the Google age, you can turn that into a bonding moment. You can offer to look up whatever they're saying together. Or maybe offer to compare notes at the next appointment if they're prepared to send you the sources they're looking at. ‘We can share in this and look this up!’ By making it a project you're reducing the distance between you, showing you're an ally.

I'll emphasize how the best way forward — the way back to normal — is to protect as many people in our community as possible. Then I'll make an appeal to them. Something like: ‘Someone in a leadership role like yourself or your community leader, can help ensure as many people as possible are protected. You can lead by example and allow us to help your neighbours get their businesses back up and running.’.

Ground it in experience and real life

I try to hone in on someone I know personally, outside of my patient panel. For instance, if someone is worried about the impact on their fitness routines, I talk about my brother. I tell them how he is quite athletic, and only 40, and how when he got COVID it laid him low. I tell them how he's been having chest pain ever since, and how he had to go see a cardiologist. Sure, his heart was fine, but you know, he wasn't really able to get back to sports for weeks and weeks.

We know from the risk communication literature that many people have trouble making statistics apply to their own lives. So, when I talk about blood clots, for example, I talk about how we've learned from some very, very rare events. 1 in 100,000 events. So, one person out of 100,000 gets a blood clot. I compare that to their chances of dying in a traffic accident — which is a chance we take every time we get in a car — that chance is 1 in 20,000. I find grounding it like that helps.

Find a common, positive goal

The common theme in all of this is: What's the shared goal? Your goal is to make the vaccination more likely. What's their goal? Their positive goal in a post-COVID-19 world. Let's find it, let's state it, then you know you're on the same team.

If you don't really fully understand where the patient's coming from, there is no opportunity to figure out what they're looking for in life. Patients have very complicated concerns and equally complicated understandings of things. Acknowledging and affirming that is the way to get to a positive goal that you can agree on.

I've been trying to move away from talking about what people are afraid of and towards what they're looking forward to. That's a good thing to think about.

Desensitize, then Motivate


The whole conversation plays out in two phases: desensitize and motivate.
Phase 1: You have to help your patient desensitize. They may have a nameless fear of the vaccine, and your job is to help them get less reactive to that fear and so become accustomed to the idea of getting the vaccine. You know it's nameless because every time the conversation comes up the fear is somewhere else. One day it's about the rushed science. The other day it's about gene therapy. The other it's about liberty and government. At root, its nameless and they're afraid. They can desensitize partially by seeing their close friends, their community members, maybe 'the rest of us' but that's a lot less effective. So you want to find out if there's ANYONE close to them who's gotten it, and see if they can use that to desensitize from the fear.

Phase 2: The question then, for these people who have this nameless fear of the vaccine, is 'How do you motivate them to do it?'. You've made it less scary - you've desensitized – but how do you motivate them? Well, YOU don't. THEY do. You just have to work with what makes them tick. Some people are about serving the community; some are about serving themselves. Well, there's their motivations, now help them see a path towards the thing they want that passes through the vaccine. Would they feel like a better member of the community if they got it? Would they feel freer and more like themselves if they got it and could do the things like - travel? Get into a bar? All you're doing is setting up the idea that the vaccine is the key to getting something that they want.

Lowering the ‘temperature’
Check yourself on the way into the room


I always have to check myself when patients contradict medical expertise. I always pause and check in with myself because there's a chance of getting really frustrated and angry.

Depending on where you're at in your day, and what your relationship is like with the patient, and how they present their alternate set of facts to you, you want to acknowledge that it can be hard to keep your cool.

De-escalate

Sometimes you can't de-escalate on the first visit. Maybe that first visit is just a chance for them to go red-hot about their other issues. You ask a neutral question: ‘Have you thought about getting vaccinated?’ And, suddenly, they've gone into the red zone and they're defensive because of the 20 years of history they've had. Clearly it's a protective mechanism. You've got to let that mechanism play out on this visit. No point in getting into the conversation. But you can prime for the next one. Affirm where they're at today, and set for the next conversation.

Anger is a natural human emotion. Especially between people who know one another. It's how you handle it. I don't think you do necessarily permanent damage if you say: ‘I respect you as a person. You've been in my practice a long time. I need to call you back when I'm thinking a little clearer. I will tell you right now, your version of the facts really diverges from my knowledge and training.’ Doing that can de-escalate the conversation. It can make the patient pause and say to themselves ‘Okay, I touched a nerve there.’ And it can give you the space to cool off.

Extend the conversation

Like so much else in family medicine, its peeling an onion. You've got to gently pull back those layers to get to the real source of the hesitancy. Once the layers are peeled back, and you've got the patient's actual concern, then you can start looking for common ground. Like with everything else, that often doesn't happen in one visit. You need to plan for the long conversation.

I have no problem saying, ‘ You've got lots of questions here. Let's sort of wrap up here, for today’ And then I tell them I want to take whatever hard or super-heated question they've got, and dig into it. So that we've got more data and a reset, cooler, shorter conversation next time.

My goal for the vaccine can't be getting them to ‘yes’ right away. My goal is to get them to a more open state. A state where they can talk more openly about some of the multiple factors contributing to their hesitancy.

Make your case. Let them digest it. Keep the door open. Say, ‘Hey, look, I'm open to talk any time if you decide you want to.’ If you don't see them saying ‘yes’ in the moment, there's no point in pursuing things. Because they need to digest the conversation.

Sometimes it's better to schedule another appointment to discuss the vaccine. The patient can be overwhelmed. Maybe you've just talked about all the other health concerns they have, and their 25 other medications. And suddenly you're saying ‘Okay. What about vaccine now?’ Better to introduce the idea and book a follow up.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
@dredd the whole idea eventually is to have a strong patient-doctor relationship. One where the patient likes the doctor and says that they trust the doctor. They know the doctor is trying to look out for their best interests.

Find common ground. Know what makes the patient tick. (And this one is different for everyone)

For example I can tell you that @JHolmesJr will agree to talk more if the doctor he trusts and truly believes in tells him he should consider vaccinating. He might not do it but at least he might have a chat with his doctor about it. Maybe if not mRNA then sinovac? Slowly. It takes time.

With @tobelightlight that one is really far down the rabbit hole.

Everyone is different.

What is definitely a NOT TO DO is to be hard nosed, dismissive, defensive, steadfast, unmoving, unrelenting and say things like THIS IS THE SCIENCE.

I don't blame you for thinking I am unsuitable to be a Dr because of my seemingly "meekness" and adherence to "patient autonomy". Patient autonomy DOES NOT mean just doing whatever the patient wants. It is respecting the patient's wishes and decisions. As I mention the non-maleficence clause makes sure that whatever is decided does not cause the patient harm. It's just the way the system is setup these days. I don't expect non doctors to understand this. In fact maybe even non Family Physicians may not understand this either. It is one of the hallmarks of Family Medicine.

Which is also why the task of addressing vaccine hesitancy has been tasked to the Family Physicians in North America.
 

dredd

Alfrescian
Loyal
Thanks dredd.

I know what you mean. I would also think that is how medicine works and how a Dr should do.

But my experience with the College is that it DOES NOT work like that.

You wont realize it until you get a complaint and you have to go through your case with the Medical Malpractice people.

The principles of patient autonomy and non maleficence hold true.

Do no harm. I do draw the boundaries. If any decision causes harm and is clear and obvious harm and against the guidelines then no way jose. I cannot do it. I also cannot perform inaction if there is cause to do so. Eg if someone is unfit to drive or an epileptic patient refuses to take his meds it is my duty to report.

But medicine is about a lot of grey.

You probablydisagree with me on how I respond to the anti vaxxers like @JHolmesJr . There is a difference between me agreeing with their fake science and misinformation ans respecting their individual rights to make informed consent. Respecting their right to refuse does not mean I endorse or agree with their logic or misinformation. On the other hand if I choose not to show them respect that is when it becomes unbecoming of the Dr.

Do not mistake the style and bravado of Drs coming here to slam and insult people as being "normal" or "ballsy". In real life you will not see this often especially among senior experienced Drs. Always find common ground. Do no harm. Keep lines of communication open. Do not harm the dr patient relationship by being dismissive and disrespectful.

This line of conversation reminds me of the debates I have had with my father. He is old school and listens to his doctor except when the dr tells him he doesnt need antibiotics for his cold then he tells the dr off. Lol.

Timea have changed.

I will share this with you from the CMPA.


https://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/en/advice-...-and-addressing-vaccine-hesitancy-and-refusal


Vaccinating: Doing it safely, and addressing vaccine hesitancy and refusal​

Girl receiving vaccine injection in left arm

Published: June 2021
The information in this article was correct at the time of publishing
21-08-E

Vaccines are valuable in preventing and controlling infectious diseases,1 and have saved countless lives.2 During the COVID-19 pandemic, the development and distribution of vaccines has been a major focus in the battle against the virus.
Physicians who provide vaccinations should be aware of their obligations, including giving patients, or their legal guardians, sufficient information about recommended vaccines so they can make informed decisions. The National Advisory Committee on Immunization is a helpful resource on recommended vaccines, including COVID-19 vaccines.3
While the value of vaccines is accepted by many people, some still debate their necessity, efficacy, and safety. This may present challenges for physicians who know a particular vaccine is indicated and appropriate, but the patient or the patient’s legal guardian is hesitant about or refuses the vaccine. Physicians should consider how to address vaccination hesitancy and refusal.
For more information specific to issues related to COVID-19 vaccines, see the CMPA COVID-19 Hub.

Discussing vaccines with patients and obtaining informed consent​

When physicians determine a specific vaccine would benefit a patient and recommend it, the clinician must obtain the patient’s or legal guardian’s informed consent before administering the vaccination. In most cases, the informed consent discussion might include:
  • benefits of the vaccine
  • risks of the vaccine (including material risks and uncommon risks with serious consequences, such as paralysis or death)
  • risks of the disease including complications
  • possible consequences of refusing the vaccine
  • relevant recommendations from authoritative groups, governments, provincial/territorial medical regulatory authorities (Colleges), and medical specialty associations and federations
  • need for follow up, for example if immunization requires a series of doses
  • any cost of the vaccine if it is not covered by the provincial or territorial health plan
If the patient (or the patient’s legal guardian) chooses to have the vaccine, physicians should inform them of common side effects and complications, and what to do if these occur. In the case of COVID-19 vaccines, for example, where the products were quickly deployed, there was an opportunity for disclosing that not all of the possible side effects of these products are known. (Regularly updated medico-legal information specific to COVID-19 vaccination may be found on the CMPA COVID-19 Hub..)

The need to document​

Once the informed consent discussion has taken place, the details of the discussion and the patient’s (or legal guardian’s) consent to the vaccine should be documented in the patient’s medical record and/or a designated provincial/territorial record. The consent process is more than completing a specific form; it is a conversation, as described previously. Any consent form the physician relies on should also be kept in the medical record and/or a designated provincial/territorial record.
The Public Health Agency of Canada’s Canadian Immunization Guide recommends that healthcare providers record vaccinations in the following: the immunization record held by the vaccine recipient (or legal guardian); the patient’s personal health record maintained by the healthcare provider who administered the vaccine; and the local provincial or territorial immunization registry, if one has been established.4
To help patients (or their guardians) manage their vaccinations, including keeping a record of vaccinations they’ve received, physicians may want to make them aware of resources such as those on the websites of Health Canada, the Public Health Agency of Canada, and Immunize Canada.

The need to follow up​

In some instances, adequate immunization requires a series of doses (such as certain COVID-19 vaccines). Before administering the first dose, physicians should talk with patients or legal guardians about the importance of obtaining all doses on the recommended immunization schedule. Physicians should be aware of the immunization schedules in their province or territory and discuss with patients any risks with delaying doses.5 It may be appropriate to have a system to follow up with patients who do not return for subsequent doses, and to document the steps taken and the response.

When patients or legal guardians are hesitant or refuse vaccinations​

While routine immunizations are recommended to prevent certain infectious diseases3,6 and most people accept routine vaccination, some still refuse or delay it for themselves or their children.7,8,9 Public health officials and studies are concerned that vaccine hesitancy and refusal will increase the risk of epidemics of vaccine-preventable illnesses.10,11,12
If patients (or legal guardians) are reluctant about a vaccine, physicians should explore and address the reasons for their reluctance, answer any questions to the best of their ability, and consider referring patients or guardians to other relevant resources for information.5 For example, physicians could direct hesitant parents to the Canadian Paediatric Society’s website (caringforkids.cps.ca
Opens in new window
), or to #ScienceUpFirst, a hashtag used by an organization of independent scientists to present science-based information through social media posts.
Physicians should be empathetic and respectful, and remind patients or guardians that their best interests (or those of their child) are the primary concern.5 Helpful articles13 and resources are available, such as the 2018 Practice Point from the Canadian Paediatric Society, "Working with vaccine-hesitant parents," which provides useful evidence-based approaches on how to communicate effectively.5
Physicians should make every effort to continue to care for patients in the existing doctor-patient relationship in accordance with current standards of care.14 For assistance with caring for patients who are reluctant about a vaccine, physicians should consult with their College and other organizations such as the Canadian Paediatric Society. For medico-legal questions, physicians should contact the CMPA.
Despite good explanations, parents and/or legal guardians may still refuse to consent to the vaccination of their children. Except in Québec, physicians should generally respect an informed decision by a child who they consider to be a mature minor and capable of understanding the risks of refusing the vaccination. In Québec, the law generally only permits children 14 years of age and older to consent to care.15 Physicians should document the wishes of the minor and the parent, if known, in the medical record along with the physician’s assessment of the child’s capacity to consent and understanding of the risks.15
If a vaccine is recommended, but refused, a detailed note of both the consent discussion and the refusal should be made in the medical record. The physician should also keep the lines of communication open for future discussions about immunization and consider directing the patient or legal guardian to a trusted source of reliable information.5
Physicians may be troubled if a patient refuses a vaccine solely for reasons of cost. The patient or legal guardian can be advised to contact their provincial/territorial health ministry on programs and assistance available for vaccinations.
In exceptional circumstances where a patient (or a patient’s legal guardian) has refused immunization, but the vaccine is medically appropriate and necessary to preserve the life or health of the child, it may be necessary to contact child protection agencies. For information on child protection agencies across Canada, physicians can refer to the Canadian Child Welfare Research Portal
Opens in new window
.16 Physicians may also wish to contact the CMPA for advice.

Questions on vaccine alternatives​

Patients (or legal guardians) may have questions about alternatives to routine vaccines, such as unproven homeopathic therapies.17 To respond appropriately, primary care physicians and those practising in related areas should stay up to date on relevant or common vaccines, their effectiveness, significant risks, and the risks if the diseases are not prevented. Physicians should be prepared to communicate clearly and professionally with patients or legal guardians on the matter and keep in mind that a healthcare provider’s advice generally has significant influence on decision-making for vaccines.5

Treating unvaccinated patients​

Physicians with unvaccinated patients should consider arranging their office to reduce any risks from these patients coming into contact with vulnerable patients, such as those with suppressed immune systems or those who have not yet received vaccinations. Scheduling appointments at different times of the day or week to treat each type of patient could be one approach. Physicians should encourage unvaccinated patients or their legal guardians to inform healthcare providers they come in contact with that they are not fully immunized. These steps are especially important in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic.

The bottom line​

  • Tell patients or their legal guardians about the benefits and significant risks of recommended vaccines, and the risks if the disease is not prevented.
  • Have a robust informed consent discussion when recommending new vaccines, such as COVID-19/ vaccines.
  • Be familiar with your province’s or territory’s immunization schedules and legislation, and your College’s policies on vaccination.
  • Document the information you give patients and their responses in the medical record and/or designated provincial/territorial record (including their reasons for refusing the vaccine).
  • Document in the medical record the vaccines discussed with, refused by, or administered to patients.
  • Patients or legal guardians have the right to accept or refuse the vaccine. Be patient and empathetic to their needs and beliefs, and keep the lines of communication open.
  • Follow up with patients to complete the course of immunization, if required, and document the steps taken.
I can see your conciliatory stand. As a person, I respect that very much but as a professional, not so.

In my line of work I interact with many medical professionals and primary healthcare providers. Some are more brash and outspoken, some are more thoughtful but almost all will agree with what I say. Even Prof Thambyah, who I know from my work and is a very nice guy, will never agree with conspiracy theorists and kowtow to them just to be on their good side. If the CT have their rights "respected" and allowed to run loose, spreading misinformation unabated, then who is to protect the gullible from being misguided by their quackery and pseudo science? People have died from believing all this shit. There must be a line drawn somewhere and that is why major SM platforms like tweeter and FB have become more responsible of late to bring these clearly dangerous lies down.

Look, all of us in the medical industry have to be on the side of science and data. CT deserve no "respect" like they don't respect science and data. I am not talking about those who truly have doubts about vaccines. For them, I understand. To each his own. I am talking about those that manipulate info, spread fear, misinformation, lies, conspiracy theories with no science or medical basis. More should be done to keep them in check. Posting irresponsible shit is easy to do just to sound like you are "smarter" than everyone else, but the ramnifications can be dire.

@JHolmesJr, @tobelightlight and some others here are not people who choose to quietly reject vaccinations because of personal reasons. They actively go out to spread fear, misinformation and CT shit just so to prove something - god knows what. These are not the people who you can open communications with and "slow talk". You look at their posts and you can see what kind of bad hombres they are. One is actively trying to sound like he is the smartest asshole in the universe and god's gift to women while peddling in lies and CT shit while another is starting scams and calling for insurrection. Both are cowards who choose to hide from me. :rolleyes:
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
here is another write up about the legal implications

https://www.canlii.org/en/commentar...QkAGU8pAELcASgFEAMioBqAQQByAYRW1SYAEbRS2ONWpA

Physician Dismissal of Vaccine Refusers: A Legal and Ethical Analysis Shawn HE Harmon, David E Faour & Noni E MacDonald*

While vaccines represent one of the most effective health interventions of the twentieth-century, most vaccine-suppressed infectious diseases are merely contained within a defined geographical area for as long as preventative measures can interrupt effective transmission. A difficulty faced by public health authorities is that, once outbreaks become rare, parents of minor children who are meant to commence their scheduled vaccines may question whether vaccination is necessary. This hesitancy can be compound- ed, or transformed into vaccine refusal, by social circles and vaccine-negative social media campaigns. As a result, some parents refuse some or all vaccines for their chil- dren. Indeed, vaccine hesitancy and refusal have increased in the last decade. Some physicians have responded by dismissing refusers and their families from their prac- tice. While dismissal data is not readily available for most jurisdictions, dismissal of patients is a serious and growing concern.

As such, this article offers an analysis of the legal and ethical implications of physician dis- missal of patients for vaccine refusal, focus- ing on Canada, but drawing on evidence and authorities from the United Kingdom and the United States where appropriate. It concludes that, while physician dismissal of vaccine re- fusers is occasionally supportable, it is gener- ally ethically and legally problematic. It closes with suggestions for physicians for managing vaccine refusal in the clinical setting.




Rights to access and to refuse treatment Summary: Individual autonomy is the foundation of clinical care, and the right to choose between offered medical treatments, or to refuse a treatment, has been robustly upheld in Canadian law. While there is a right – as an extension of the right to self-determination – to choose among the core medical treatments offered through the health care system, there is no right to demand a treatment that is outside good medical practice, that is viewed by the treating physician as futile, or that is not covered by the provincial insurance system. 38 In addition to these constraints, the Nova Scotia Court of Appeal has also acknowledged that health care is delivered in the context of a cap system whereby, with limited funds, the introduction of new programs can impact the amounts available for existing ones. 39 The Court held that Nova Scotia’s decision not to cover in vitro fertilization was justifiable on the basis that the procedures in question, having regard to costs, limited success rates, and risks, did not rank sufficiently high to warrant payment for them. 40 More recently, in Flora v Ontario Health Insurance Plan 41 , the Ontario Court of Appeal held that the province had no obligation to reimburse a patient under its health plan who paid out-of-pocket for a successful, lifesaving liver transplant outside of Canada after Ontario physicians determined he did not meet the local criteria for the procedure. 42 In short, any positive right to access health care is limited. 43 In contrast to their limited recognition of positive health care rights in Canada, courts have long and explicitly upheld the right of patients to refuse medical interventions. Refusal cannot be overridden, even if the treatment is deemed to be in the patient’s interests or refusal is ill-advised. 44 This was clearly established as a common law right in Hopp v Lepp 45 , and Reibl v Hughes 46 . It has been reaffirmed many times since, 47 perhaps most forcefully in AC v Manitoba, wherein Justice Abella, for the majority, held that “[t]he legal environment for adults making medical treatment decisions … demonstrates the tenacious relevance in our legal system of the principle that competent individuals are – and should be – free to make decisions about their bodily integrity.” 48 This common law right has been codified in consent-specific statutes in multiple jurisdictions 49 and is constitutionally supported by section 7 of the Charter, which guarantees the right to life, liberty, and security of the per-son. 50 The Supreme Court of Canada has suggested that the right to refuse treatment is accompanied by a corresponding right to know the risks of foregoing treatment. In Hollis v Dow Corning Corp, Justice La Forest stated that “every individual has a right to know what risks are involved in undergoing or foregoing medical treatment and a concomitant right to make meaningful decisions based on a full understanding of those risks.” 51 The question of whether material information regarding the risk of foregoing medical treatment must be provided where a patient refuses care has not been extensively considered in Canada. A brief discussion by the British Columbia Supreme Court in obiter appears to support a doctrine of so-called “informed refusal.” 52 American jurisprudence has repeatedly upheld a physician’s duty to disclose risks of foregoing a recommended medical-treatment. 53 Further, given the Supreme Court of Canada’s statements that patients have a right to know the risks involved in “foregoing” treatment, held in both Reibl 54 and Hollis, 55 Canadian physicians may well be under a duty to ensure that patients have full knowledge about the risks of declining or delaying vaccinations. 56 Ultimately, it is clear that patients have some qualified right to health, understood as a right to a reasonable level of health care generally compliant with the principles of the Canada Health Act. 57 Patients can access the core services and treatments provided free of cost, they can refuse any treatment offered for any reason (or for no reason at all), and, if refusing the treatment, they are entitled to full information regarding the risks associated with their decision.



In addition to the above, dismissal may be viewed as a breach of several ethical principles core to the physician’s role, such as: •

Patient Autonomy: It is axiomatic that patients have the right to refuse treatments, including vaccinations, even if to do so is foolhardy and dangerous. Despite its limited application, this principle serves to remind the physician that patients are within their rights to refuse. For patients who are incapable (such as infants), the principle of patient autonomy extends to the patient’s substitute decision maker – within, of course, certain constraints, some of which were discussed earlier. •

Beneficence and Non-Maleficence: Physicians must act in the interest of their patients, doing good and minimizing harm. Dismissal undermines the duty to care for every patient no matter what their beliefs, values, and attitudes may be, and could result in all manner of health-related harms. 147 •

Solidarity: Physicians must stand with their patients, bearing costs for them and advocating for them. 148 When dismissing refusers, they undermine the solidarity that they are expected to show with their most vulnerable of patients: children. Indeed, it is this solidarity with the child patient that rightly serves to counterbalance the parents’ autonomy, offering the physician further tools and justifications. 149 •

Justice: Dismissal infringes the principle of distributive justice both directly by impeding equitable access to health care, and indirectly by shifting the clinical burden of treating that family to those physicians who choose not to dismiss for refusal. 150

Ultimately, dismissal will only be ethical and legal under very narrow circumstances, and only in certain jurisdictions, and it will rarely be the proper or best course of action. Many factors correctly serve to limit physician rights to dismiss patients who persistently refuse to immunize. Even if physicians are adamant that the relationship has irreparably broken down due to persistent refusals to immunize, they must nonetheless exercise utmost caution and restraint in relation to dismissal because many of the College policies take a very restrictive view. The New Brunswick, Ontario, and British Columbia Colleges make it clear that dismissals will rarely be ethically justifiable. The other provinces, save for Prince Edward Island and Québec, will only permit dismissal after repeated reasonable attempts have failed to obtain compliance. Even then, physicians risk violating other ethical, professional, or legal rules (e.g., CMA Code rules permitting patient refusal of treatments, human rights equality standards, or Charter guarantees of patient rights). Physicians should therefore consider how best to manage vaccine refusers within their practice.



Summary: There are numerous strategies clinicians may employ to maintain a positive doctor-patient relationship with vaccine refusers. Continuation of that relationship is desirable for both public and individual reasons and is likely the only platform from which a vaccine-refusing patient or parent might be convinced, through sound evidence, to ultimately accept vaccination.

To preserve the doctor-patient relationship, and potentially lead the patient to a vaccine-accepting stance, physicians might adopt the following “Seven ‘A’s” strategy: 155 •

Avoid Confrontation: While vaccine refusers can be frustrating for physicians to counsel, having a debate about immunization is not particularly helpful, and may further entrench vaccine-negative views. Overly strong or strident messaging can often sound like an attack on beliefs, making it unlikely that the refuser will hear the message. 156 A 2010 survey of Ontario parents with children under age sixteen presenting for naturopathic care reported that a majority (50.5%) felt pressure from their allopathic physician to vaccinate. 157 Of those who discussed vaccination with their physician, 25.9% were less comfortable continuing care as a result, and 5% were advised by their physician that their children would be refused care if they decided against vaccination. Parents reported excessive pressure to vaccinate, and felt that discussions were not balanced, injecting a sense of conflict into the relationship. Thus, first and foremost, respectful discourse is critical to good doctor-patient relationships. Even highly resistant populations can change their views, but that requires targeted messages that build on community values delivered in non-confrontational ways. 158 Physicians should therefore minimize adversarial and positional stances and eschew overtly pressurized tactics. They should avoid repeating vaccination myths lest repetition reinforce those myths among patients. 159 More collegial and motivational interactions can be woven into a routine visit with only a small increase in time. 160

Accept:
It is important to accept and embrace the parent or patient refuser as an autonomous person deserving dignity, and make them know that, regardless of their decision, their opinions are valued. Physicians should not reject a refuser’s values outright. More importantly, physicians should remember that it is the child who is the patient of concern, and that there is no basis for rejecting that patient.

Affirm: Physicians should acknowledge that the parents have good intentions toward the child and that this is a source of common ground. Such an acknowledgement can be powerful. It affirms that both the parent and the physician want the child to be safe, healthy,and happy. This builds trust and allows for further (and more persuasive) conversations to be had in the future. 161


Actively Listen: The physician should never assume or guess why the patient or parent is refusing immunization. 162 Instead, he or she should ask parents about their worries regarding vaccination, and about their understanding of disease risks and vaccine benefits. Physicians should attempt to understand the values which informed the decision to refuse immunization. Listening to the parent’s or patient’s responses is key, and correcting specific misconceptions is critical. 163 •

Advise: Physicians are typically trusted advisors. They should therefore remind parents that not making a decision about immunization is itself a decision (i.e., help correct the “omission bias”). Physicians must ensure that they have advised patients not only of the personal benefits of immunization, but also of the public health benefits, and the potential consequences of non-immunization: that their healthy unvaccinated child may spread a vaccine-preventable disease to high-risk individuals. 164 Presenting information and outcomes in terms of gains and losses can be powerful, 165 and can better direct patients to trusted and reputable sources of further information. •

Advocate: Physicians should always remain an advocate for the patient, who is the child. They should therefore ensure that discussion does not focus on the parent’s (or physician’s) subjective beliefs or fears, but rather on objective evidence from reliable sources of the benefits of vaccination for the child. While physicians should not hesitate to advocate strongly, it is of course important to remain empathetic and sensitive to the parents’ concerns.

Annotate: Physicians should document in the patient’s chart the refusal and the reasons for refusal (or hesitancy), noting that the benefits, risks and responsibilities have all been reviewed. 166



Conclusion

Vaccine hesitancy has increased in Canada, and patient dismissal for vaccine refusal has also become more common. Our analysis has demonstrated that the right to dismiss patients is incredibly narrow, and recourse should not readily be made to it. Indeed, the CMA Code acknowledges that physicians may simply have to deal with tension between different ethical principles, between ethical and legal or regulatory demands, and between their own ethical convictions and the needs of others. The CMA Code instructs physicians to prioritize the well-being of the patient, to recognize and disclose conflicts of interest, and to resolve them in the best interests of the patient. 172 Physicians, and those who advise them, should therefore be reminded that there is a complex array of ethical, legal, and social considerations which must be weighed on a case-by-case basis before dismissal can be justifiable, and dismissal as a blanket policy should be rejected outright. Instead, the individual circumstance of each vaccine-refusing patient must be carefully assessed with particular attention paid to the best interests of the child. The most powerful tool for combating vaccine hesitancy and refusal is a good doctor-patient relationship, the maintenance of which is at the heart of the physician’s legal, ethical, and professional responsibilities. A strong and continuing relationship preserves the possibility of future engagements, including ones that alter the stance of the vaccine refuser. Further, learning to disagree in a cordial and honest way with minimal conflict is important for both physicians and patients, as is the gradual accumulation of the trust that may lead to informed decision-making, and ultimately to vaccine acceptance. Given the central role that immunization programs play in meeting state health objectives and obligations, provincial or federal immunization regulations should be adopted which better highlight and clarify the responsibilities and rights of all parties implicated in the immunization setting. Additionally, policymakers such as national and provincial professional Colleges should offer more specific instruction (similar to the clarifications proffered by the Canadian Paediatric Society and the Ontario College) as to how physicians can best meet their public health responsibilities, how to deal with parents who are acting in ways they consider to be contrary to the child patient’s interests, and what constitutes reasonable attempts to address non-compliance.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
I can see your conciliatory stand. As a person, I respect that very much but as a professional, not so.

In my line of work I interact with many medical professionals and primary healthcare providers. Some are more brash and outspoken, some are more thoughtful but almost all will agree with what I say. Even Prof Thambyah, who I know from my work and is a very nice guy, will never agree with conspiracy theorists and kowtow to them just to be on their good side. If the CT have their rights "respected" and allowed to run loose, spreading misinformation unabated, then who is to protect the gullible from being misguided by their quackery and pseudo science? People have died from believing all this shit. There must be a line drawn somewhere and that is why major SM platforms like tweeter and FB have become more responsible of late to bring these clearly dangerous lies down.

Look, all of us in the medical industry have to be on the side of science and data. CT deserve no "respect" like they don't respect science and data. I am not talking about those who truly have doubts about vaccines. For them, I understand. To each his own. I am talking about those that manipulate info, spread fear, misinformation, lies, conspiracy theories with no science or medical basis. More should be done to keep them in check. Posting irresponsible shit is easy to do just to sound like you are "smarter" than everyone else, but the ramnifications can be dire.

@JHolmesJr, @tobelightlight and some others here are not people who choose to quietly reject vaccinations because of personal reasons. They actively go out to spread fear, misinformation and CT shit just so to prove something - god knows what. These are not the people who you can open communications with and "slow talk". You look at their posts and you can see what kind of bad hombres they are. One is actively trying to sound like he is the smartest asshole in the universe and god's gift to women while peddling in lies and CT shit while another is starting scams and calling for insurrection. Both are cowards who choose to hide from me. :rolleyes:

I agree with you. CT should be shut down. But they arent right?

Now things are very different when it is in the context of a doctor-patient relationship. even if the patient is a CT those tenets apply for a good doctor-patient relationship and the ethical and legal responsibilities of the physician to his or her patient.

There is perhaps a grey area when it comes to CT who are NOT a Dr's patient. But then as you know a complaint can still be made and often the College will say that a Dr is still a Dr even when not in the office.

As I have said, as a Dr many of my own personal rights and opinions have to be tempered and controlled.

I do not support the CTs point of view. And as I said I merely respect their right to choice as I have taken effort to explain why.

To be frank, I did not find the same level of training in these aspects of patient autonomy, non maleficence, and justice when I trained in SG. There was actually an exam that I had to study for before I could apply for the IMG program and try to get into residency. It was the MMI interview exams. I studied a book called "Doing Right" by Dr Frank Hebert.

https://www.doingright.ca/

afde62527187691d88ccd66c141e0ef341ccd67c.jpg


The exam itself was a series of 10 quick fire interviews with examiners who gave a scenario and I had to discuss the ethical issues with the case and how I would approach managing the situation using these principles of ethics.

A lot of all this was new to me! Singapore doesnt teach this stuff in detail.

The other big one was the STAGES OF CHANGE (TRANSTHEORETICAL MODEL OF CHANGE). We practiced this ad nauseam during residency.

https://www.aafp.org/afp/2000/0301/p1409.html

Helping patients change behavior is an important role for family physicians. Change interventions are especially useful in addressing lifestyle modification for disease prevention, long-term disease management and addictions. The concepts of “patient noncompliance” and motivation often focus on patient failure. Understanding patient readiness to make change, appreciating barriers to change and helping patients anticipate relapse can improve patient satisfaction and lower physician frustration during the change process. In this article, we review the Transtheoretical Model of Change, also known as the Stages of Change model, and discuss its application to the family practice setting. The Readiness to Change Ruler and the Agenda-Setting Chart are two simple tools that can be used in the office to promote discussion.

unnamed.png


Again I don't remember this as part of my training in medical school in NUS. Perhaps because I didn't train post grad in Family Medicine in SG? I wonder if they teach this in detail in the MMedFam Med? I know that with GDFM they talk about ICE. Ideas, Concerns and Expectations. But this Transtheoretical Model of Change I don't recall. Maybe I wasnt paying attention then. LOL!
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
@dredd perhaps things are different in Singapore. Culturally Singapore is different from Canada and USA. Many of the laws in Singapore would not be able to be passed in Canada or USA.

So I can understand your experience.

And you are right that perhaps in Singapore my approach would be frowned upon (although I beg to differ).

However as I have attempted to show, this is the standard expected in Canada.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
@dredd case in point, I have not seen any doctor in Singapore come out publicly to slam anti vaxxers. Have you?

Even when it came to trying to spread the message about vaccination being safe and all they had OYK do it with a conversation video mock up with Zoe Tay!

Where are the drs? Where are your doctors that should be shutting down CTs?

@porcaputtana ? Ok sure! LOL! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Different cultures in Singapore and Canada I guess.
 

dredd

Alfrescian
Loyal
I agree with you. CT should be shut down. But they arent right?

Now things are very different when it is in the context of a doctor-patient relationship. even if the patient is a CT those tenets apply for a good doctor-patient relationship and the ethical and legal responsibilities of the physician to his or her patient.

There is perhaps a grey area when it comes to CT who are NOT a Dr's patient. But then as you know a complaint can still be made and often the College will say that a Dr is still a Dr even when not in the office.

As I have said, as a Dr many of my own personal rights and opinions have to be tempered and controlled.

I do not support the CTs point of view. And as I said I merely respect their right to choice as I have taken effort to explain why.

To be frank, I did not find the same level of training in these aspects of patient autonomy, non maleficence, and justice when I trained in SG. There was actually an exam that I had to study for before I could apply for the IMG program and try to get into residency. It was the MMI interview exams. I studied a book called "Doing Right" by Dr Frank Hebert.

https://www.doingright.ca/

View attachment 125350

The exam itself was a series of 10 quick fire interviews with examiners who gave a scenario and I had to discuss the ethical issues with the case and how I would approach managing the situation using these principles of ethics.

A lot of all this was new to me! Singapore doesnt teach this stuff in detail.

The other big one was the STAGES OF CHANGE (TRANSTHEORETICAL MODEL OF CHANGE). We practiced this ad nauseam during residency.

https://www.aafp.org/afp/2000/0301/p1409.html

Helping patients change behavior is an important role for family physicians. Change interventions are especially useful in addressing lifestyle modification for disease prevention, long-term disease management and addictions. The concepts of “patient noncompliance” and motivation often focus on patient failure. Understanding patient readiness to make change, appreciating barriers to change and helping patients anticipate relapse can improve patient satisfaction and lower physician frustration during the change process. In this article, we review the Transtheoretical Model of Change, also known as the Stages of Change model, and discuss its application to the family practice setting. The Readiness to Change Ruler and the Agenda-Setting Chart are two simple tools that can be used in the office to promote discussion.

View attachment 125351

Again I don't remember this as part of my training in medical school in NUS. Perhaps because I didn't train post grad in Family Medicine in SG? I wonder if they teach this in detail in the MMedFam Med? I know that with GDFM they talk about ICE. Ideas, Concerns and Expectations. But this Transtheoretical Model of Change I don't recall. Maybe I wasnt paying attention then. LOL!
I appreciate your stand on patient rights. I do too. The problem is with CTs who spread fear, misinformation, lies and all kinds of shit to prey on the gullible. Much like the granny who listened to her CT friends and ended up in hospital from ingesting Ivermectin. That is the classic case of how information can be dangerous.

The right to choose remains yours but the right to put up laws to protect the public and its healthcare systems remain that of the gahment. More should be done to shut down the irresponsible from spreading CTs.
 

dredd

Alfrescian
Loyal
@dredd case in point, I have not seen any doctor in Singapore come out publicly to slam anti vaxxers. Have you?

Even when it came to trying to spread the message about vaccination being safe and all they had OYK do it with a conversation video mock up with Zoe Tay!

Where are the drs? Where are your doctors that should be shutting down CTs?

@porcaputtana ? Ok sure! LOL! :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Different cultures in Singapore and Canada I guess.
Different cultures yes. Definitely. Doctors coming out to slam CTs? That would be to go down the rabbit hole, wouldn't it? Better to just let the authorities impose penalties and/or simply let common sense prevail. Because if there's one thing they don't want to do with these morons is to engage in any meaningful conversation with them like what you are doing with them here. They will use your professionalism to prove they are right and embolden their aim to spread more shit. Their argument is: we must be right, otherwise, why are you talking with them?

Forget about changing their views. Unless covid gets them in a personal way, nothing will change their thinking....
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
I appreciate your stand on patient rights. I do too. The problem is with CTs who spread fear, misinformation, lies and all kinds of shit to prey on the gullible. Much like the granny who listened to her CT friends and ended up in hospital from ingesting Ivermectin. That is the classic case of how information can be dangerous.

The right to choose remains yours but the right to put up laws to protect the public and its healthcare systems remain that of the gahment. More should be done to shut down the irresponsible from spreading CTs.
I 100% agree with you.

Totally 100%. And I truly wished that more could be done.

Authorities should clamp down on sites spreading misinformation.

Also authorities should push for legislation and medical professional bodies to change or waive some of these axioms to have a harder stance on CTs. I am with you dredd!

Right to choose? We all have a right to choose. But consider that it is established by courts and precedence and professional bodies that if I choose a certain way then the price to pay is risk being disciplined. Fined. Disciplinary proceeding costs. In a way becomes not worth a price to pay really.

I have mentioned before.......Shan came up with POFMA. Wah whack whack whack when political falsehoods are made and spread.

What about all this medical falsehoods? Where is POFMA? Joke lah.

Seriously don't look at doctors to be the ones going aggressive and attacking all this stuff. It should be as you said gahment. But why gahment don't do it? That is the big question.
 

nayr69sg

Super Moderator
Staff member
SuperMod
Different cultures yes. Definitely. Doctors coming out to slam CTs? That would be to go down the rabbit hole, wouldn't it? Better to just let the authorities impose penalties and/or simply let common sense prevail. Because if there's one thing they don't want to do with these morons is to engage in any meaningful conversation with them like what you are doing with them here. They will use your professionalism to prove they are right and embolden their aim to spread more shit. Their argument is: we must be right, otherwise, why are you talking with them?

Forget about changing their views. Unless covid gets them in a personal way, nothing will change their thinking....

https://www.vhguide.ca/

Actually it is about helping with change.

People do decide to change sometimes. And as your rightly pointed out it has to be PERSONAL.

Individual.

Hey I never said it is easy!

I have not seen anyone quote me and say that I support anti-vaxxer except........porcaputtana.

@JHolmesJr bro ask you have I ever supported anti-vaxxing? You get that impression?
@tobelightlight do I support anti-vaxxing? (I think I am on his ignore list so definitely no lah)
@Loofydralb bro am I an anti-vaxxer? Do I support anti-vaxxers?
@Balls2U am I an anti-vaxxer? Is it unclear if I am pro vaccine or anti vaccine?
@laksaboy am I an anti-vaxxer or pro vaccine?
@nirvarq bro am I pro vaccine or anti-vaccine?
@hbk75 do I come across as anti-vaxxer to you?
@Datingafter35 am I supportive of anti-vaxxers?
@Leongsam what say you boss?
 

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
https://www.vhguide.ca/

Actually it is about helping with change.

People do decide to change sometimes. And as your rightly pointed out it has to be PERSONAL.

Individual.

Hey I never said it is easy!

I have not seen anyone quote me and say that I support anti-vaxxer except........porcaputtana.

@JHolmesJr bro ask you have I ever supported anti-vaxxing? You get that impression?
@tobelightlight do I support anti-vaxxing? (I think I am on his ignore list so definitely no lah)
@Loofydralb bro am I an anti-vaxxer? Do I support anti-vaxxers?
@Balls2U am I an anti-vaxxer? Is it unclear if I am pro vaccine or anti vaccine?
@laksaboy am I an anti-vaxxer or pro vaccine?
@nirvarq bro am I pro vaccine or anti-vaccine?
@hbk75 do I come across as anti-vaxxer to you?
@Datingafter35 am I supportive of anti-vaxxers?
@Leongsam what say you boss?

I say everyone has a right to decide what to put in their bodies and I do not agree that anti vaxxers are a danger to the vaxxed.

As for the argument that they take up ICU space the same applies to other idiots like the drunk, the druggies etc.
 

porcaputtana

Alfrescian
Loyal
Interesting how during this pandemic so many clowns come out to proclaim themselves medical experts

Did the same bunch of cartoons come out during the sub prime crisis and proclaim themselves financial geniuses and start dishing out investment advice too?
 

sweetiepie

Alfrescian
Loyal
Interesting how during this pandemic so many clowns come out to proclaim themselves medical experts

Did the same bunch of cartoons come out during the sub prime crisis and proclaim themselves financial geniuses and start dishing out investment advice too?
Imuho clear minded with an average to good iq can be a expert in most areas at an overview I.e they can make leecisions based on critical clear and wise thinking therefore deemed an expert . My uncle has never made any wrong leecision in life ever since he became a wise men :smile:
 

porcaputtana

Alfrescian
Loyal
Screenshot 2021-10-19 at 13.11.52.png



There was some rumour that our glorious Madam took rubbish non mRNA as a booster

And I was just thinking why would a highly educated (she was a Prez scholar ) and enlightened elegant woman do such a dumbfuck thing

Now I know it was just a malignant rumour by jealous people . She took triple mRNA and her neutralising antibodies are the same as her A level results

She will be around for a long time to rule over all the filthy unvaccinated peasants yet

I breathe a sigh of relief
 
Top