Failing organs of govt and the SAF

[Charlie99]

well they never reached high rank.

most retired at or before Colonel

 

[steffychun]

most retired at or before Colonel

most CMI under LKY's retire at 45 rule.

 

[Leongsam]

The government's worst performing organ...

 

[Papsmearer]

History had already shown that SG would fall like a pack of cards if and when invaded. The Japs attacked Bolehland in the North during WW2 and walked all the way into SG. SG is as vulnerable today as way back in WW2. Sukarno launched confrontasi and bombed SG without sending soldiers into the country, just saboteurs and people panicked like shit. SG does not have a hinterland to fight a war. All these paper Generals are just for show just like the police commanders when faced with the ah neh rioters. Would they have the guts to defend and die for SG? Extremely doubtful. Just a few kamikaze pilots of the enemy forces and SG would be finished.

Actually, I disagree with your analysis of Singapore's fall during WW2. But you bring up an excellent example to illustrate my point about bad generalship in an army. The Japanese won the Battle of Malaya (culminating in the surrender of SIngapore) because their leadership was superior to the British. General Arthur Percival had a combined force of 140,000 against Yamashita's 70,000. Fighting as defenders, Percival should have employed fortified defences and Yamashita should have had a numerically superior attacking force of 3:1 against Percival. The Japanese tactics of quick manuevre, outflanking, and attack from the rear and unexpected places defeated the British army who were falsely overconfident. Only when the Japs got to Johor state that they finally met tactically sound defence put up by the Australian General Gordon Bennet and his subordinate Lt Col Charles Anderson. In fact, Anderson was awarded the Victoria Cross for his fighting withdrawal into Singapore. The Japs were so stretched out and exhausted by the pace of the fighting that when Percival asked for a meeting at the Ford Motor Factory, Yamashita thought that he was going to be asked to surrender to the British. But instead, Percival surrendered to him.

What I am saying is that in the case of the British, you have bad Generalship, in the person of Percival. And dispite numerically superior numbers, and fighting from defensive positions, he still lost the battle in fairly quick time. You might make a case that the Brits would never have won anyway because they were in effect cut off from Britain and their supplies of equipment and men. You might also say that in some cases, the RAF had the inferior aircraft, and later no air support. But they were clearly outfought tactically by the Japs. They could have fought the Japs to a standstill too. The Japs were stretched out at that time too, and allocated only specific forces to the Malaya campaign due to simultaneous invasions of Indonesia, Phillipines, Hong Kong, etc. They too were not in the position to receive reinforcements. Properly defended, there is no doubt in my mind that SIngapore would have held out for a long time.

Now compare this to our modern Scholar Generals. DO you think they are a Yamashita or a Percival? I think the answer is obvious, they are worse than Percival. At least Percival was a WW1 veteran, being wounded at the battle of SOmme. Our scholar Generals would faint at the sight of dead and mutilated bodies.

Regarding your comment about Soekarno and the Konfrontasi, I was around when that happened. There was some panic, but not to the degree that you described. I remember as a young child, my father and other men in the kampong would form vigilante volunteer groups and patrol the neighbourhood with parangs and what not. In case the Indonesian commandoes decided to mess with our kampong. So, I would hardly call this a panic. More like taking matters into their own hands, and not really terrified of these so call commandoes. I would say the older generation demonstrates more balls than the one today.

You don't need a hinterland to fight a war. You need to fight in an urban environment, FIBUA, and defend accordingly. Many cities have been successfully defended, eg. Stalingrad, Leningrad, etc. EVen a country like Israel which has no strategic depth can be successfully defended. Again, it comes to leadership and fighting will.

 

[Charlie99]

"You don't need a hinterland to fight a war. You need to fight in an urban environment, FIBUA, and defend accordingly. Many cities have been successfully defended, eg. Stalingrad, Leningrad, etc. EVen a country like Israel which has no strategic depth can be successfully defended. Again, it comes to leadership and fighting will."

*** *** ***

These are the key success factors.

Your analysis is excellent.

However, I believe that the SG RSAF pilots are very well trained, and well equipped. Except that those pilots are not Israelis pilots, and we do not have the commanders like the IDF.

When I was in the reservists, one of the CO whom I respect is then Major Syed Ibrahim (an officer trained at the Malayan Army College??). If he had chosen to go with the RMAF, I am sure he would have been a general there (like a few of this fellow officers). He was an Armoured Officer (and I completed the Armour and Infantry Advanced Officers' Course, some 30 years ago), and he was sent to be an "Observer" in the 1973 Arab-Israeli War. Funny that during one of the exercise debrief, Maj Syed Ibrahim and the other fellow officers called me "Colonel", and the nickname stuck with me, throughout university and reservist.

Unfortunately, although Major Syed Ibrahim was trained in Australia, he retired as LTC or local LTC (the rank he held, when he was Military Attache at the SG Embassy in Indonesia).

A year or two ago, from Toronto, I phoned him in JB.

 

[Papsmearer]

"You don't need a hinterland to fight a war. You need to fight in an urban environment, FIBUA, and defend accordingly. Many cities have been successfully defended, eg. Stalingrad, Leningrad, etc. EVen a country like Israel which has no strategic depth can be successfully defended. Again, it comes to leadership and fighting will."

*** *** ***

These are the key success factors.

Your analysis is excellent.

However, I believe that the SG RSAF pilots are very well trained, and well equipped. Except that those pilots are not Israelis pilots, and we do not have the commanders like the IDF.

When I was in the reservists, one of the CO whom I respect is then Major Syed Ibrahim (an officer trained at the Malayan Army College??). If he had chosen to go with the RMAF, I am sure he would have been a general there (like a few of this fellow officers). He was an Armoured Officer (and I completed the Armour and Infantry Advanced Officers' Course, some 30 years ago), and he was sent to be an "Observer" in the 1973 Arab-Israeli War. Funny that during one of the exercise debrief, Maj Syed Ibrahim and the other fellow officers called me "Colonel", and the nickname stuck with me, throughout university and reservist.

Unfortunately, although Major Syed Ibrahim was trained in Australia, he retired as LTC or local LTC (the rank he held, when he was Military Attache at the SG Embassy in Indonesia).

A year or two ago, from Toronto, I phoned him in JB.

Hmm,..... I am not aware of any MAlays in armour at that time, and in fact, not even today. And that applies to AI also. When you say armour officer, do you mean like those that graduated from the Tank Officer Cadet Course (TOCC)? Otherwise, if they were in 46SAR or 41SAR, they are more likely AI officers. But even than, I am not aware of any malay AI officer.

As for the 1973 Yom Kippur War, I knew some SAF armour personnel who were in country training on the KP. They were immediately rushed out of Israel and flown to Europe (Germany, if I recall), and in fact were evacuated from the Israel. This was due to the fact the Israels were losing badly and the IDF was faced with defeat. Not good to have sinkie armour personnel killed or captured by the Arabs. They were really fighting for their lives back than, I really doubt they have the time to entertain an "Observer". But nevertheless, an interesting story.

 

[zhihau]

EVen a country like Israel which has no strategic depth can be successfully defended. Again, it comes to leadership and fighting will."

some bloke still believed Sinkies accepted NS and viewed it as a way of our lives

 

[Narong Wongwan]

I agree with you, especially about Sandhurst and West Point.

A schoolmate of mine, several years older, was the Best Overseas Cadet at Sandhurst.
I believe that his last rank was Colonel.
It appears that unless you are a SAFOS or some kind of "scholar", a "farmer officer" will rarely be promoted to BG.

Yes. There had only been 2 farmer generals....one was Patrick Choy. This BG did not even have a degree, only o levels. The other one was Ishak Ismail....first token mat BG.
You can include Winston Choo and Ng Jui Ping but they were both from before the scholar schemes were started.
Strictly speaking only safos are considered scholars.

 

[steffychun]

Yes. There had only been 2 farmer generals....one was Patrick Choy. This BG did not even have a degree, only o levels. The other one was Ishak Ismail....first token mat BG.
You can include Winston Choo and Ng Jui Ping but they were both from before the scholar schemes were started.
Strictly speaking only safos are considered scholars.

the SAF Merit Scholarship can get to to BG...but only like a few months before forced retirement.

 

[Papsmearer]

the SAF Merit Scholarship can get to to BG...but only like a few months before forced retirement.

Yep, all the Farmer Cols, LTC, and BG shuffled off to the SIngapore SPorts council to cool their heels after retirement from SAF. Scholars of the same rank get to be posted to SMRT, GLCs, and made MPs and Minister. Song boh?

 

[Charlie99]

Hmm,..... I am not aware of any MAlays in armour at that time, and in fact, not even today. And that applies to AI also. When you say armour officer, do you mean like those that graduated from the Tank Officer Cadet Course (TOCC)? Otherwise, if they were in 46SAR or 41SAR, they are more likely AI officers. But even than, I am not aware of any malay AI officer.

As for the 1973 Yom Kippur War, I knew some SAF armour personnel who were in country training on the KP. They were immediately rushed out of Israel and flown to Europe (Germany, if I recall), and in fact were evacuated from the Israel. This was due to the fact the Israels were losing badly and the IDF was faced with defeat. Not good to have sinkie armour personnel killed or captured by the Arabs. They were really fighting for their lives back than, I really doubt they have the time to entertain an "Observer". But nevertheless, an interesting story.

He was trained as an armour officer (tanks, not AI, he was trained in Portsmouth), but although he is an Arab, the SAF did not allow him to be a CO of an active Armour Battalion.

Now that it has been more than 40 years, we can discuss it.

I really like and respect Syed Ibrahim, because he is "truly like a British officer and gentleman", except that he was not of Chinese descent. I believe that he was a LTA when SAF had its first batch of Officer Cadets at SAFTI. A few other LTA who instructors then are: (rank at retirement) LTC Jimmy Yap, MAJ or LTC George HO (nicknamed GPMG Ho), CPT Shari Ngaimin

 

[steffychun]

He was trained as an armour officer (tanks, not AI, he was trained in Portsmouth), but although he is an Arab, the SAF did not allow him to be a CO of an active Armour Battalion.

Now that it has been more than 40 years, we can discuss it.

I really like and respect Syed Ibrahim, because he is "truly like a British officer and gentleman", except that he was not of Chinese descent. I believe that he was a LTA when SAF had its first batch of Officer Cadets at SAFTI. A few other LTA who instructors then are: (rank at retirement) LTC Jimmy Yap, MAJ or LTC George HO (nicknamed GPMG Ho), CPT Shari Ngaimin

Portsmouth is a naval base.

 

[Papsmearer]

Portsmouth is a naval base.

Yep, the British School of Armour is in Bovington, DOrset. Also, the home of the best armour collection in the world at the Bovington Tank Museum. I plan to be there next year. :-)

 

[Charlie99]

Yes. There had only been 2 farmer generals....one was Patrick Choy. This BG did not even have a degree, only o levels. The other one was Ishak Ismail....first token mat BG.
You can include Winston Choo and Ng Jui Ping but they were both from before the scholar schemes were started.
Strictly speaking only safos are considered scholars.

Thank you.

My memory failed me, except that I completely forgot that BG II, who retired not too long ago, is not a scholar.

Of course Winston Choo and Patrick Choy are not a scholar, and NJP is not a scholar (first batch OCS) [if Boey Tak Hap accepted the Chief of Defence Staff apt, then the govt. would not have to take the "contingency option" to appoint NJP].

There may be more recent generals who are not scholars - BG Lam Shiu Tong, a commando officer, commander of the Special Ops Task Force, now a BG commanding the PDF.

If only SAFOS are considered scholars, then there is another commando BG (attended Dunman Sec Sch), who retired a year or two ago, who is not a SAFOS, but was either on some scholarship or SAF Overseas Trg Award.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

holy shit the govt's organs are failing which department is the dick in the govt body?

 

[Narong Wongwan]

the SAF Merit Scholarship can get to to BG...but only like a few months before forced retirement.

There are exceptions....overaged Ravinder Singh who took over from Kee Chiu made it to MG even....he was only overseas training award....but did double dipped and got another postgrad award later.

 

[Narong Wongwan]

Thank you.

My memory failed me, except that I completely forgot that BG II, who retired not too long ago, is not a scholar.

Of course Winston Choo and Patrick Choy are not a scholar, and NJP is not a scholar (first batch OCS) [if Boey Tak Hap accepted the Chief of Defence Staff apt, then the govt. would not have to take the "contingency option" to appoint NJP].

There may be more recent generals who are not scholars - BG Lam Shiu Tong, a commando officer, commander of the Special Ops Task Force, now a BG commanding the PDF.

If only SAFOS are considered scholars, then there is another commando BG (attended Dunman Sec Sch), who retired a year or two ago, who is not a SAFOS, but was either on some scholarship or SAF Overseas Trg Award.

Thank you for highlighting Lam Shui Tong. This BG truly deserves his rank. A legend and a born soldier.
There are quite a few non SAFOS but with other lower saf scholarships who made it....ravinder singh i mentioned is one such exsmple....but those who got no scholarship in any form are the rare breed.....

 

[Charlie99]

Thank you for highlighting Lam Shui Tong. This BG truly deserves his rank. A legend and a born soldier.
There are quite a few non SAFOS but with other lower saf scholarships who made it....ravinder singh i mentioned is one such exsmple....but those who got no scholarship in any form are the rare breed.....

I heard that commando BG very "garang".
If I compare myself with him, that BG super fit commando and super garang.

I speculate that they may be another commando BG in the near future.

If I was him, I rather be commander of the Special Ops task Force than PDF.

 

[Narong Wongwan]

I heard that commando BG very "garang".
If I compare myself with him, that BG super fit commando and super garang.

I speculate that they may be another commando BG in the near future.

If I was him, I rather be commander of the Special Ops task Force than PDF.

He made this name during the 1991 hijack of SQ117.....

 

[Charlie99]

He made this name during the 1991 hijack of SQ117.....

what was his rank then, when he was with the First Commando Battalion.

I cannot remember when they changed it from "Who Dares, Wins" to "For Glory and Honour"