'CIA created ISIS', says Julian Assange as Wikileaks releases 500k US cables

[whoami]

as a person who had it done for medical reasons, I found the benefit dubious, not really there. I had it done as an adult so am painfully aware of the differences. I regret listening to advice to do so. Nowadays, all benefits associated with sunat can be achieved through other means such as foreskin loosening or phrenectomy. Really find no benefit, but a lot of discomfort. A lot of American and American medical standards are strangely enough are exceedingly pro-sunat because of a lot of Jewish influence. It's automatically done. Other western countries without such Jewish influence don't do it.

well. let's see here. grab a weak, struggling, helpless animal. hold it down with all your bros in full view of an expectant audience while it's fighting for it's life. cut it's neck and watch it slowly bleed out. Once it's done eat it to satisfy oneself and all your bros appetites.

now let's insert another human into the picture. grab a weak, struggling helpless human, probably a woman, hold her down with all your bros in full view of an expectant audience while she's fighting for her freedom. do whatever you want to satisfy yourselves and your bros appetites. cutting neck optional.

a few women who witnessed korban who were not desensitized to it told me it reminded them of witnessing gang rape where all the audience were in full support.

once it's well practiced enough, people get desensitized and used to such power imbalance. So professional slaughterhouses all full of animal abusers. Don't even need to look to far. NZ mosque shootings exactly like FPS video game. People keep playing that shit, desensitizes them.

Apology for late reply. I think is up to individual lah. I used to mixed around with converts. So far none of them ever complain of pain like what u had posted. Cos during the circumcision u will be numbed. After several hours then u will feel like ants biting. Thats what i been told. Discomfort thats all. Next two days one can run and jump leow. Bro, its just the front foreskin. For we Muslims is more on religious obligation. Buts teres also some medical benefits derive from it.

No no no. We do not enjoy killing animals for sport. We hunt animals to eat...to survive. Tats the reason why animals are created...serve as food. Muslims slaughtered animals are being done in a humane way...islamic way.

"The swift cutting of vessels of the neck disconnects the flow of blood to the nerve of the brain responsible for pain. Thus the animal does not feel pain. While dying, the animal struggles, writhers, shakes and kicks, not due to pain, but due to the contraction and relaxation of the muscles deficient in blood and due to the flow of blood out of the body."

U may read the following link for more info.

http://www.therevival.co.uk/article/islamic-method-slaughtering-animals-scientific-not-inhumane

Now...why would we slaughter a human? We are told not to destroy trees/plants in time of war. What more human being.

It may look horrific at the sight of the slaughtering. But actually the animal was slaughtered in a humane way compared those that used by stunning.

 

[nightsafari]

Apology for late reply. I think is up to individual lah. I used to mixed around with converts. So far none of them ever complain of pain like what u had posted. Cos during the circumcision u will be numbed. After several hours then u will feel like ants biting. Thats what i been told. Discomfort thats all. Next two days one can run and jump leow. Bro, its just the front foreskin. For we Muslims is more on religious obligation. Buts teres also some medical benefits derive from it.

ya lah. it is up to individual is exactly my point. That's why when you ask what religion I follow, I will tell you I take bits and pieces from everywhere. The one without clear benefit I don't follow. Mine took me more than two weeks to recover from and although there was medical benefit, it could be more easily achieved with less pain. If god wants us to have foreskin, why does he want us to cut it off? I find it difficult to find any good reason to agree with other than obligation. My next question will then be who do I owe the obligation to?

No no no. We do not enjoy killing animals for sport. We hunt animals to eat...to survive. Tats the reason why animals are created...serve as food. Muslims slaughtered animals are being done in a humane way...islamic way.

yes that is good.

"The swift cutting of vessels of the neck disconnects the flow of blood to the nerve of the brain responsible for pain. Thus the animal does not feel pain. While dying, the animal struggles, writhers, shakes and kicks, not due to pain, but due to the contraction and relaxation of the muscles deficient in blood and due to the flow of blood out of the body."

U may read the following link for more info.

http://www.therevival.co.uk/article/islamic-method-slaughtering-animals-scientific-not-inhumane

Now...why would we slaughter a human? We are told not to destroy trees/plants in time of war. What more human being.

It may look horrific at the sight of the slaughtering. But actually the animal was slaughtered in a humane way compared those that used by stunning.

this is an interesting problem. But first of all, I want to mention that this is not islam-specific. Korban is firstly a Jewish practice. Jews were doing it long before Islam existed. They have stopped for some time. The problem has two parts. The first is pain to the animal, the second is psychological impact on people involved with it.

Pain to the animal. 1400 years ago, Islamic practices were the best practices in the world for human diet and reducing animal suffering. I feel that now in 2019, there are better ways. This argument especially applies to sunat.

Psychological impact. Slaughtering any living animal, human or otherwise is a violent act. It involves the use of violence to the point of removing another life for the sake of one's desires be they good or not. This slaughtered do not want to die. The slaughterer wants it to die. This creates a conflict of which the only resolution is for either the lamb to run free or for the slaughterer to violently kill it. If a person becomes very used to using violent deadly force to satisfy their food cravings, for the mind it is an easy step to run to violent deadly force for any cravings. No?

The second part of this is publicity. When everyone gets used to seeing it, they start to become accustomed to it. In the case of korban, this violence is depicted as a normal and even desirable act. A lot of people mentioned FPS videogames and the NZ shooter. I think they are related more than anyone cares to admit. For me, the shooter is glorifying himself like some video game hero. The people he kills are in his head just like video game scores. Which is why I won't go near those games.

 

[whoami]

ya lah. it is up to individual is exactly my point. That's why when you ask what religion I follow, I will tell you I take bits and pieces from everywhere. The one without clear benefit I don't follow. Mine took me more than two weeks to recover from and although there was medical benefit, it could be more easily achieved with less pain. If god wants us to have foreskin, why does he want us to cut it off? I find it difficult to find any good reason to agree with other than obligation. My next question will then be who do I owe the obligation to?

yes that is good.

this is an interesting problem. But first of all, I want to mention that this is not islam-specific. Korban is firstly a Jewish practice. Jews were doing it long before Islam existed. They have stopped for some time. The problem has two parts. The first is pain to the animal, the second is psychological impact on people involved with it.

Pain to the animal. 1400 years ago, Islamic practices were the best practices in the world for human diet and reducing animal suffering. I feel that now in 2019, there are better ways. This argument especially applies to sunat.

Psychological impact. Slaughtering any living animal, human or otherwise is a violent act. It involves the use of violence to the point of removing another life for the sake of one's desires be they good or not. This slaughtered do not want to die. The slaughterer wants it to die. This creates a conflict of which the only resolution is for either the lamb to run free or for the slaughterer to violently kill it. If a person becomes very used to using violent deadly force to satisfy their food cravings, for the mind it is an easy step to run to violent deadly force for any cravings. No?

The second part of this is publicity. When everyone gets used to seeing it, they start to become accustomed to it. In the case of korban, this violence is depicted as a normal and even desirable act. A lot of people mentioned FPS videogames and the NZ shooter. I think they are related more than anyone cares to admit. For me, the shooter is glorifying himself like some video game hero. The people he kills are in his head just like video game scores. Which is why I won't go near those games.

When i said up to individual i meant some may experienced pain and most may not. When u believe in God u must have the conviction. Its alright to be curious, wanting to know why this why that. But if u keep questioning the commandment of God or even the existence of God, then u fall into the trap of Shaitan. Hes Muslims No 1 enemy. Circumcision is the mark of the covenant between God and Prophet Abrahim a.s. So as descendants of the Prophet Abrahim we followed the Prophets example...virtue and righteousness. To me i believe circumcision does bring benefits. Especially when come to prayers. As u know Muslims have to do their ablution. It has to be 100% clean. With the foreskin intact, u may have to pull it all the way to wash away all those residues. Kind of hassle. Then u have the medical benefits too. Though sunat is not mentioned in the Quran, it is mentioned in the Hadith. Fyi, Prophet Isa(Jesus) a.s circumcised too. Yes...as we developed science may come up with a better painless way of circumcision. My sons also circumcised..only complained itch, like ants biting...kind of irritating. 3rd day jumping up and down leow.

If u read the Quran and OT....u will find some similarities in it. Like fasting, korban. facing direction to pray, halal and haram, etc etc etc. Why the Jews stopped doing it, i dont know. Its God's commandment. Why stop? Look at Israel? They have stop following commandment of the 6th and 8th. They have go against the 10 commandments of God! Actually OT God is aka Allah.

I notice u keep mentioned suffering...pain on the partof the animals. U from the animal right activist groups? Vege? Just curious? Again i need to emphasize....we dont kill animals for sport. We kill them for consumption. Not just Muslims. Even the xtians, buddhists, hindus, etc etc, slaughter animals too.

Food cravings? But we need to eat. No? I am not vege. Well even plants also living things. Just that they dont bleed but doesnt mean they not in "pain".

I dont think the NZ terrorist learnt his shooting by watching the korban lah. He glorified himself. Yes. But we dont glorified ourselves when slaughtering animals. I dont see butcher taking selfie at the slaughter house/abattoir. Maybe hunting for lions or tigers for sport.

 

[nightsafari]

When i said up to individual i meant some may experienced pain and most may not. When u believe in God u must have the conviction. Its alright to be curious, wanting to know why this why that. But if u keep questioning the commandment of God or even the existence of God, then u fall into the trap of Shaitan. Hes Muslims No 1 enemy. Circumcision is the mark of the covenant between God and Prophet Abrahim a.s. So as descendants of the Prophet Abrahim we followed the Prophets example...virtue and righteousness. To me i believe circumcision does bring benefits. Especially when come to prayers. As u know Muslims have to do their ablution. It has to be 100% clean. With the foreskin intact, u may have to pull it all the way to wash away all those residues. Kind of hassle. Then u have the medical benefits too. Though sunat is not mentioned in the Quran, it is mentioned in the Hadith. Fyi, Prophet Isa(Jesus) a.s circumcised too. Yes...as we developed science may come up with a better painless way of circumcision. My sons also circumcised..only complained itch, like ants biting...kind of irritating. 3rd day jumping up and down leow.

If u read the Quran and OT....u will find some similarities in it. Like fasting, korban. facing direction to pray, halal and haram, etc etc etc. Why the Jews stopped doing it, i dont know. Its God's commandment. Why stop? Look at Israel? They have stop following commandment of the 6th and 8th. They have go against the 10 commandments of God! Actually OT God is aka Allah.

yes. thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I think I forgot to mention that I am also agnostic. I do not believe that it my place to determine whether there is a god or not or whether you should follow god or not. I am merely myself. If there is a god, great. If not, then I will still try to do my best. With all my senses, with all sciences, no one has ever found any evidence of god. Does that mean that god does not exist? How should I know? It could be that we have yet to find ways to find god. Until I have incontrovertible proof of god, i prefer to say that I don't know because that is an absolute truth. The existence of Shaitan is also not proven. Tell me when was the last time you encountered him?

Tell me, what truths do you know that are absolute and incontrovertible? I know I am myself. I know I feel pain. When I look in the mirror I see a chinese face staring back. I know I was born from a mother and father. How much of any religion is such an absolute truth? Just a reminder, I am only detailing my reasons for not following religion. I am not attacking Islam specifically. All religions and belief systems have the same weaknesses.

I notice u keep mentioned suffering...pain on the partof the animals. U from the animal right activist groups? Vege? Just curious? Again i need to emphasize....we dont kill animals for sport. We kill them for consumption. Not just Muslims. Even the xtians, buddhists, hindus, etc etc, slaughter animals too.

Food cravings? But we need to eat. No? I am not vege. Well even plants also living things. Just that they dont bleed but doesnt mean they not in "pain".

this is one of the useful things I learnt from Buddhism. I can feel pain, I am sure that other humans can too. It's not a stretch to determine that other animals can too. I once had to remove a hook from a shark and was fascinated by how little the hook was in the shark, which was so big and powerful but how much it reacted to every tiny movement of the small hook. So all animals experiencing pain is an absolute truth. I know how bad it is for me, I so strive to minimize it where I can. And as you say, plants may feel pain too, so I try no to harm them.

I dont think the NZ terrorist learnt his shooting by watching the korban lah. He glorified himself. Yes. But we dont glorified ourselves when slaughtering animals. I dont see butcher taking selfie at the slaughter house/abattoir. Maybe hunting for lions or tigers for sport.

a few things to answer. I still believe the terrorist is influenced by observed violence. And no, he did not get it from korban. He got it from FPS games. His video of his shootings are exactly like an FPS feed. Except, it's horribly real. The point is, I am used to seeing people observing violence and then re-enacting it. It's a well-proven psychological link. I don't agree with korban for this reason, but I am not going to go and yell and protest at the next korban, but if someone asks my opinion, I will say what I think. I am not here to lie, but I am also not here to cause pain and if I have caused you pain, I apologize. It is not my intention. Most Everybody and every living thing has feelings, of that I am quite sure.

On the other hand, most religions are documented in books and kept by priests. Not only that they are changed whenever the priesthood, feels like it. How many versions of Christianity are there? What about Islam? Which version then? I choose not to follow things that are so easily adapted by human hands, human minds. From long before religion existed and long after we die, I can prove that we are human, that there is a sun, that we all feel pain and hurt. These are absolute truths and I use these to guide me. For following others who follow others who follow books and teachings who no one really knows the author to me is being intellectually lazy. Giving away responsibility for your own actions, basically. That is not so good.

What do you think?

 

[whoami]

yes. thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I think I forgot to mention that I am also agnostic. I do not believe that it my place to determine whether there is a god or not or whether you should follow god or not. I am merely myself. If there is a god, great. If not, then I will still try to do my best. With all my senses, with all sciences, no one has ever found any evidence of god. Does that mean that god does not exist? How should I know? It could be that we have yet to find ways to find god. Until I have incontrovertible proof of god, i prefer to say that I don't know because that is an absolute truth. The existence of Shaitan is also not proven. Tell me when was the last time you encountered him?

If i tell u i seen God, Ah kow also seen God, Muthu also seen God....so which is the real or true God? So Muslims believe if one declare he or she a god, thats shaitan. HIS very creation around u is proof of HIS existence. Now why should the Creator manifest HIMSELF to proof to his creation his existence? Make a mockery of GOD? Thats where ur faith come into question. Of course teres so many religion, so many god...so which one is the true God? Thats where u have to do some soul searching. I like this quotation " seek and u shall find". U keep praying in ur heart and ask God to lead u to the right path....God willing....u will find HIM. As for shaitan aka Jinn. Yup, seen them....with the help of my Master. To deny the existence of shaitan is to denying the Quran.

Tell me, what truths do you know that are absolute and incontrovertible? I know I am myself. I know I feel pain. When I look in the mirror I see a chinese face staring back. I know I was born from a mother and father. How much of any religion is such an absolute truth? Just a reminder, I am only detailing my reasons for not following religion. I am not attacking Islam specifically. All religions and belief systems have the same weaknesses.

How Man and Woman were created are all mentioned in the Quran:

https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-a.htm

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)...

1 (Quran, 23:12-14)

U should get hold of a English translated Quran and read.

this is one of the useful things I learnt from Buddhism. I can feel pain, I am sure that other humans can too. It's not a stretch to determine that other animals can too. I once had to remove a hook from a shark and was fascinated by how little the hook was in the shark, which was so big and powerful but how much it reacted to every tiny movement of the small hook. So all animals experiencing pain is an absolute truth. I know how bad it is for me, I so strive to minimize it where I can. And as you say, plants may feel pain too, so I try no to harm them.

Yes, all living things feel pain. Ur pain in this world is but temporarily pain. Can u imagine the pain in the Hereafter? Of course u may say wheres the proof? Wheres Heaven and Hell? If they were to be shown infront of u, then tere wont be Hell. Tio boh? The beautiful Quran told us come judgement day, unbelievers will deny they were given the message of Islam. They can lie but their front forehead i.e. frontal lobe cant lie. Scientist had proven in 20th century.

No indeed! If he does no stop, WE will seize him by the forehead, his lying, sinful forehead. [Quran 96:15-16]

a few things to answer. I still believe the terrorist is influenced by observed violence. And no, he did not get it from korban. He got it from FPS games. His video of his shootings are exactly like an FPS feed. Except, it's horribly real. The point is, I am used to seeing people observing violence and then re-enacting it. It's a well-proven psychological link. I don't agree with korban for this reason, but I am not going to go and yell and protest at the next korban, but if someone asks my opinion, I will say what I think. I am not here to lie, but I am also not here to cause pain and if I have caused you pain, I apologize. It is not my intention. Most Everybody and every living thing has feelings, of that I am quite sure.

Not just korban. Even non muslims also slaughtered animals to eat. U ever witness how the non muslims slaughtered cows, goats, pigs, fowls like hens, ducks, etc etc? I think the way they slaughtered lagi chialat. Anyhow chop and cut. For us Muslims, we ensure the knife must be sharp....one slice and tats it.

On the other hand, most religions are documented in books and kept by priests. Not only that they are changed whenever the priesthood, feels like it. How many versions of Christianity are there? What about Islam? Which version then? I choose not to follow things that are so easily adapted by human hands, human minds. From long before religion existed and long after we die, I can prove that we are human, that there is a sun, that we all feel pain and hurt. These are absolute truths and I use these to guide me. For following others who follow others who follow books and teachings who no one really knows the author to me is being intellectually lazy. Giving away responsibility for your own actions, basically. That is not so good.

What do you think?

U talk about humans, the sun etc etc....all were also explained in the Quran 1400 yrs ago. How could an illiterate man 1400 yrs ago knew about the creation of the sun...big bang etc etc? Truth had to be recorded. I mean if not then how to spread the message of God? Whether those verses were words of God, u then need to go browse thru and study it with an open heart. There are tons and tons of below verses which science only discovered them not very long ago. 1400 years ago Allah told us so.

"Did the unbelievers (who do not accept the teaching of the Prophet) not realize that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We tore them apart, and We made every living being out of water? Will they, then, not believe (that We created all this?) And We placed firm mountains on earth lest it should sway with them, and We made wide paths in them that they may find their way; and We made the sky a secure canopy; and yet they turn away from these Signs. It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Each of them is floating in its orbit."

http://www.quranictopics.com/tp3ch2e-Signs-of-Allah-in-creation-of-Sun-Moon-Stars.html

 

[nightsafari]

If i tell u i seen God, Ah kow also seen God, Muthu also seen God....so which is the real or true God? So Muslims believe if one declare he or she a god, thats shaitan. HIS very creation around u is proof of HIS existence. Now why should the Creator manifest HIMSELF to proof to his creation his existence? Make a mockery of GOD? Thats where ur faith come into question. Of course teres so many religion, so many god...so which one is the true God? Thats where u have to do some soul searching. I like this quotation " seek and u shall find". U keep praying in ur heart and ask God to lead u to the right path....God willing....u will find HIM. As for shaitan aka Jinn. Yup, seen them....with the help of my Master. To deny the existence of shaitan is to denying the Quran.



How Man and Woman were created are all mentioned in the Quran:

After reading your entire post, I have come to one new conclusion which I thank you for.

The conclusion is this : A lot of people who are very strident in their beliefs have read them and internalized the knowledge first. Personal experiences come 2nd. In other words, you have a cognitive framework for your experiences to fit into as opposed to letting your experiences define the framework for you. Yet another analogy, is that you buy the story first, then fit all of your life into it instead of living your life and then deciding what story to tell. This is fascinating and certainly doesn't apply to religions only. Could apply to vote who for President too.

I have learnt a lot from this discussion and I am grateful to you, but my conclusions are unchanged. I, personally am of the belief that whoever made me, and wherever I may end up after I die, it is my job do be the best human I can be and this I can easily figure out how to do. Figuring out something no one has ever seen, touch, felt or heard or measured on any instruments is beyond my capabilities and I think it's sheer arrogance that anyone can write whole volumes on what they themselves have never even seen, touched, etc.

I have to totally disagree with one thing you said though :

"HIS very creation around u is proof of HIS existence. Now why should the Creator manifest HIMSELF to proof to his creation his existence? Make a mockery of GOD?"

I dunno whether you agree with this, but we humans and everything alive on this planet is also capable of creation. How do you say? Well I think you mentioned before you have children right? Well do you not feel that this is somewhat similar to creation? Parents create children. Without you, these lives simply would not exist. So, would you being a good father consider manifesting yourself to your children making a mockery of you? I think it's exactly the opposite. I think if you made them and didn't manifest yourself as their creator, you would be making a mockery out of creating them. Have a child with a woman and then never speak or touch that child to me is truly a making a mockery of it.

If god is truly a kind, loving god and creates you, would it make sense to to guide you personally or to just leave you all alone and afraid in this universe? That doesn't make sense. I am going to assume that your parents loved you, and if they did, do you remember how you feel about it? I think I would rather be loved by my parents than be a follower to a god that just keeps asking me for obedience and keep praying to me and doing things like send my children to have their penises cut without so much as speaking a word of appreciation to me. I also think that I should be kind and loving to all that I meet whether human, animal or plant, no matter the religion or race and monetary status. If after all that, god still doesn't want me because I don't go to church or temple or mosque, then fine. I can live and die happily with myself.

If someone is always there for me like a good father or mother or even a good brother or sister, I will have faith. If abandoned by them and they never talk to you and just tell you to follow all these rules written down for you will you still have faith in this parent or family member? I won't. He may still be my father, but if you're not a part of my life other than giving me rules to follow, then we don't have a relationship. simple-minded thinking no?

 

[whoami]

After reading your entire post, I have come to one new conclusion which I thank you for.

The conclusion is this : A lot of people who are very strident in their beliefs have read them and internalized the knowledge first. Personal experiences come 2nd. In other words, you have a cognitive framework for your experiences to fit into as opposed to letting your experiences define the framework for you. Yet another analogy, is that you buy the story first, then fit all of your life into it instead of living your life and then deciding what story to tell. This is fascinating and certainly doesn't apply to religions only. Could apply to vote who for President too.

I have learnt a lot from this discussion and I am grateful to you, but my conclusions are unchanged. I, personally am of the belief that whoever made me, and wherever I may end up after I die, it is my job do be the best human I can be and this I can easily figure out how to do. Figuring out something no one has ever seen, touch, felt or heard or measured on any instruments is beyond my capabilities and I think it's sheer arrogance that anyone can write whole volumes on what they themselves have never even seen, touched, etc.

Well, u are right in certain way. I am a born Muslim. Yes, i do follow whatever i am told by my parents. But i do go back to my scripture and checked what is this why is tat like korban, sunat etc. So u asked my why sunat, i already told u. So the same time i also learnt. And again sunat is optional. Its a convenant made between Prophet Abrahim a.s. and his Creator. Just like Jesus a.s., we Muslims recognise Prophet Abrahim a.s. as a prophet too. And they were all circumcised.

I had posted some example...some verses with regards to the creation of the universe as mentioned in the Quran. Doesnt it occur to u how a illiterate man 1400 years ago able to know what science had only discovered recently or 20th century ago? Read whats stated in the Quran and u compare to what u see or read in science text? Tats not good enough? Isnt that proof? As i had mentioned the Prophet is illiterate. God Almighty commanded the Prophet (thru Angel Jibrael) to read those verses in the Quran. Prophet not arrogant. He acted according to God's command. If u care to refer to other religion like Judaism, xtianity, buddhism, hinduism....is also mentioned in those scriptures the coming of a prophet i.e.Prophet Muhammad saw.

I have to totally disagree with one thing you said though :

I dunno whether you agree with this, but we humans and everything alive on this planet is also capable of creation. How do you say? Well I think you mentioned before you have children right? Well do you not feel that this is somewhat similar to creation? Parents create children. Without you, these lives simply would not exist. So, would you being a good father consider manifesting yourself to your children making a mockery of you? I think it's exactly the opposite. I think if you made them and didn't manifest yourself as their creator, you would be making a mockery out of creating them. Have a child with a woman and then never speak or touch that child to me is truly a making a mockery of it.

If god is truly a kind, loving god and creates you, would it make sense to to guide you personally or to just leave you all alone and afraid in this universe? That doesn't make sense. I am going to assume that your parents loved you, and if they did, do you remember how you feel about it? I think I would rather be loved by my parents than be a follower to a god that just keeps asking me for obedience and keep praying to me and doing things like send my children to have their penises cut without so much as speaking a word of appreciation to me. I also think that I should be kind and loving to all that I meet whether human, animal or plant, no matter the religion or race and monetary status. If after all that, god still doesn't want me because I don't go to church or temple or mosque, then fine. I can live and die happily with myself.

If someone is always there for me like a good father or mother or even a good brother or sister, I will have faith. If abandoned by them and they never talk to you and just tell you to follow all these rules written down for you will you still have faith in this parent or family member? I won't. He may still be my father, but if you're not a part of my life other than giving me rules to follow, then we don't have a relationship. simple-minded thinking no?

Thats the problem with mankind. They know abit of knowledge and start to be arrogant. Parents create children? But who create parents, humans? In my previous post i already mentioned and quoted verses from the Quran. Let me post it one more time.

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance) [Q23:12-14]

How could a illiterate man, 1400 years ago, know about such info if its not from God Almighty himself.

Of course u can chose to be free thinker. God is fair. Choice is urs. No compulsion in religion. Thats why tat day i told between knowledge and manner, which one is greater? Shaitan is very knowledgeable....but arrogant. Keep questioning God Almighty. But look what happened to him? I am not saying we just act without questioning. I am not insinuating anything but just a casual reminder...

 

[nightsafari]

Well, u are right in certain way. I am a born Muslim. Yes, i do follow whatever i am told by my parents. But i do go back to my scripture and checked what is this why is tat like korban, sunat etc. So u asked my why sunat, i already told u. So the same time i also learnt. And again sunat is optional. Its a convenant made between Prophet Abrahim a.s. and his Creator. Just like Jesus a.s., we Muslims recognise Prophet Abrahim a.s. as a prophet too. And they were all circumcised.

I had posted some example...some verses with regards to the creation of the universe as mentioned in the Quran. Doesnt it occur to u how a illiterate man 1400 years ago able to know what science had only discovered recently or 20th century ago? Read whats stated in the Quran and u compare to what u see or read in science text? Tats not good enough? Isnt that proof? As i had mentioned the Prophet is illiterate. God Almighty commanded the Prophet (thru Angel Jibrael) to read those verses in the Quran. Prophet not arrogant. He acted according to God's command. If u care to refer to other religion like Judaism, xtianity, buddhism, hinduism....is also mentioned in those scriptures the coming of a prophet i.e.Prophet Muhammad saw.



Thats the problem with mankind. They know abit of knowledge and start to be arrogant. Parents create children? But who create parents, humans? In my previous post i already mentioned and quoted verses from the Quran. Let me post it one more time.

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance) [Q23:12-14]

How could a illiterate man, 1400 years ago, know about such info if its not from God Almighty himself.

Of course u can chose to be free thinker. God is fair. Choice is urs. No compulsion in religion. Thats why tat day i told between knowledge and manner, which one is greater? Shaitan is very knowledgeable....but arrogant. Keep questioning God Almighty. But look what happened to him? I am not saying we just act without questioning. I am not insinuating anything but just a casual reminder...

First of all, just fyi, I am not targeting Islam specifically. All religions are subject to the same questions.

The Muslims I spoke to are not sure the Muhammad is the author of the Quran. There are those who are certain that it was Muhammad, but there are those who are not. Just like there are Jews certain of Zionism, there are also Jews who are not. There are many different opinions on the matter. For me, it is beyond my mental reach so I do not feel qualified to approach the subject.

You mentioned the difference between knowledge and manners. I agree. I have far less knowledge than you of Islam, that I am certain. I have only certainty of a few things, nowhere near as many as you. I have 1 further question for you. If you were an independent observer, would you find my questions arrogant or do you think that your certainty in your knowledge more arrogant?

I am a questioner and I admit my lack of knowledge humbly and willingly as I have in all our interactions from the very beginning. I have no quotes nor knowledge to speak of other than my personal experiences with the people I meet. The only person here who approximates your knowledge is laksaboy from our interactions. Perhaps you find my behaviour arrogant and knowledgeable like shaitan although I have a hard time trying to reach that conclusion given my lack of knowledge.

As always, I humbly await your opinion.

 

[whoami]

First of all, just fyi, I am not targeting Islam specifically. All religions are subject to the same questions.

The Muslims I spoke to are not sure the Muhammad is the author of the Quran. There are those who are certain that it was Muhammad, but there are those who are not. Just like there are Jews certain of Zionism, there are also Jews who are not. There are many different opinions on the matter. For me, it is beyond my mental reach so I do not feel qualified to approach the subject.

You mentioned the difference between knowledge and manners. I agree. I have far less knowledge than you of Islam, that I am certain. I have only certainty of a few things, nowhere near as many as you. I have 1 further question for you. If you were an independent observer, would you find my questions arrogant or do you think that your certainty in your knowledge more arrogant?

I am a questioner and I admit my lack of knowledge humbly and willingly as I have in all our interactions from the very beginning. I have no quotes nor knowledge to speak of other than my personal experiences with the people I meet. The only person here who approximates your knowledge is laksaboy from our interactions. Perhaps you find my behaviour arrogant and knowledgeable like shaitan although I have a hard time trying to reach that conclusion given my lack of knowledge.

As always, I humbly await your opinion.

Dont fret, i know u are not bias. And i can understand ur reservation in accepting God as the Creator. There will always be people who have doubts on the authenticity of the scriptures. Then again u also have intellectual, scientists, doctors embracing Islam.

No. I dont find ur questions arrogant. U have the right to ur opinion. I am just giving u example of how proud and arrogant shaitan was despite the fact he was very very knowledgeable (bestow upon him by God Almighty), yet questioned and refused to obey God's commandment.