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Serious Are there any advantages at all to a 99 year HDB lease?

Discussion in 'The Courtyard Café' started by Papsmearer, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. Papsmearer

    Papsmearer Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp Old Timer

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    So, I have spoken out through the years on what a scam the HDB/CPF axis is. Those who “buy” HDB flats enter the arrangement are blind and brain dead. Are there any advantages to purchasing a HDB flat, other then an overpriced roof over your head? To be fair, there are 2 major advantages, both of which have some intrinsic value.


    Firstly, there is there is the right of sole survivorship. Imagine if you sign a 5 year lease for a car. If you die within this 5 years, The lease does not transfer to your heirs. The lease was signed with you and if you are dead, the lease terminates. Same too for any 12 month rental agreements and such. The person signing it was qualified for the lease by the landlord or his agent, hence, no one is supposed to take over when that tenant is deceased. But in the HDB case, the flat and its remaining lease can be willed on towards your spouse, children, or any relatives you so chose. In theory they can stay there for up to the full 99 years long after you are deceased. There is a value in this, mainly because they will be staying almost rent free after the original housing loan to “purchase” the flat has been paid off and even if it has not been paid off, the monthly mortgage payments are likely way below the market rent for an equivalent flat.


    The second advantage is that the remaining lease on the flat can be transferred to another individual at an arms length COMMERCIAL transaction for financial compensation. In other words, the “owner” of the flat can “sell” the flat for money, and maybe even for more then what he or she paid for it. The landlord (HDB) has to approve the transaction, but in almost all cases, there is no issue. In normal commercial and residential leases, this is not possible. Lets say If you sign a 5 + 5 commercial lease on a shop in say Katong Shopping Centre, and after 2 years someone offers you a lot of money to walk away from your lease because they want to occupy that space, the landlord has to approve your sublease to this new person. And its not always a given that it will happen. The landlord would rather terminate the lease with you and sign a more lucrative lease with this person who is willing to pay more.


    These 2 advantages are in many ways unique to the HDB 99 year lease. Flat dwellers should take whatever pitiful advantages are offered.
     
  2. nayr69sg

    nayr69sg Alfrescian Old Timer

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    Thanks papsmearer. Very informative.
     
  3. mojito

    mojito Alfrescian Old Timer

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    Papsmearer just defined ownership. Finally the simpleton understand leases too can be owned.
     
  4. Maximuz

    Maximuz Alfrescian Old Timer

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    Sell the flat, money goes into CPF, then:

    a) "buy" another one?

    b) if CPF is withdrawable, then... sleep on the road with stacks of cash as mattress?
     
  5. nayr69sg

    nayr69sg Alfrescian Old Timer

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    Thank you mojito. Honestly I know nuts about this whole leasehold thing. All the properties where I live now are all freehold.

    I just hope that future Singaporeans don't kena con.
     
  6. Dark Knight

    Dark Knight Alfrescian (Inf)

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    Whenever I heard my friends and colleagues expressing their happiness after getting their HDB flat, I will always share with them that they are now in serious debt for the next 25 to 30 years and by the time they finished serving the HDB loan they will be left with not much "cash savings".
    These happily married couple don't get the reality of life when I tried telling them this and still think that owning a HDB flat will enable them to live happily ever after like fairy tales.
     
  7. tanwahtiu

    tanwahtiu Alfrescian Old Timer

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    Ok. This lease is signed with landlord Pap.

    What if new landlord take over. Any speculation how the lease will go?
     
  8. AhNehs

    AhNehs Alfrescian Old Timer

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    poor will remain poor
    rich will remain rich
    Still don't get it?
     
  9. frenchbriefs

    frenchbriefs Alfrescian (Inf)

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    yes this,thank you.this shows that even a 99 year lease has value.it represents ur inalienable right to occupy a desirable piece of property in a strategic location in a prosperous city for the subsequent 99 years of the lease for the rest of ur natural life and even transferable to ur heirs.PAP has found a way to turn rock into gemstone,water into wine,everything else is down to market forces and the hand of God,Majuallah PAP!!!
     
  10. Papsmearer

    Papsmearer Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp Old Timer

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    No you dumb lump of dog shit. just because a lease has some value in it, does not mean you own the underlying asset. Which part of this don't you understand?
     
  11. Papsmearer

    Papsmearer Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp Old Timer

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    Yes, it has some value as stated above. Its not the value that the PAP says you have and the peasants who get conned think they have. These 2 parties think the value is in owning the asset (HDB flat). But peasants are not the owners and PAP has lied to them. The PAP keeps drilling into their heads that they own the flat, and hence the value is in flat ownership. But its not. The value, for what it is, in really in those 2 scenarios stated in the original post.
     
  12. mojito

    mojito Alfrescian Old Timer

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    Why you reply me twice? What is a lease? It is an economic right of use. Ownership of lease is ownership of that right. Nowhere is it implied the ownership of that right or use is the same as ownership of that asset. Then of course there is the legal interpretation which complicates things. There is no need to debate such trivialities. All you need to know is in the end one is worth kosong the other is worth something for e.g. land in the case of freehold but even that bo bao because of Land Acquisition Act that will screw rich landowning families til their anus bleed. Exception to rule is of course SERS which unscrupulous RE agents say is implicit price floor guarantee for old units which has most recently been debunked by launce wrong.
     
  13. Papsmearer

    Papsmearer Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp Old Timer

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    U are right, its not implied. In fact, its outright told to you in your face that you own the HDB flat even though you are just a tenant signing a 99 year lease. This economic right of use for 99 years legally does not in any shape or form imply ownership of the asset. But this king asshole son of the heavenly emperor tells you that you own it. U don't want to debate with him? U calling him a liar? U claiming that no one is misrepresenting a 99 year prepay rent as ownership of the same unit? Stop swallowing bangla sperm its fucking up your brain.



    [h=1]Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong's National Day Rally 2015 Speech
    [/h]HDB housing is one important way we make sure that we go together. We started the HDB home ownership programme in the 1960s and it has been a tremendous success. Today, more than 90 per cent of HDB households own their flats. We are a nation of home-owners and we have achieved something unique for our people, home ownership and no ghettos or slums anywhere in Singapore
     
  14. Bonut

    Bonut Alfrescian Old Timer

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    Your mentioned "the right of sole survivorship". I believe the correct phrase is "right of survivorship". The right of survivorship does not mean you can will your property to your heirs. The right of survivorship is often used to describe the difference between a joint tenancy (JT) and a tenancy in common (TIC). As most HDB flats are bought as matrimonial home, the manner of ownership is often shared between husband and wife as joint tenants.

    In a joint tenancy, the ownership is indivisible between the joint tenants. They are effectively "Siamese twins" so that when one joint tenant dies, the surviving joint tenant will automatically own the entire property, not having to share with anyone. This is the known as "the right of survivorship". On the other hand, if tenants choose to demarcate the percentage of ownership as in 50/50 or 30/70, it's called a tenancy in common. The tenants in this case are tenants in common, as opposed to joint tenants.

    A tenant in common who owns 30% share in the property can will his 30% share to somebody else, say, his nephew. When he dies, the nephew can take up a probate and have the 30% ownership transferred to nephew. The surviving tenant in common has no say over the 30% share. He or she just gets to keep his or her 70%. In other words, there is no right of survivorship in a tenancy in common.

    Hence, it's not accurate to say that in the case of HDB flat the lease holder has the right of [sole] survivorship and explain the right of [sole] suvivorship in the context of the right to will your property to your heirs. First of all, right of survivorship must be explained in the context of a joint tenancy, not sole ownership. Like I said, it's used to differentiate between a JT and a TIC.

    More importantly, it's precisely because of the operation of right of survivorship in a joint tenancy that you cannot will a joint tenancy. In other words, if you own your HDB flat with your wife as joint tenant, and your wife has been screwing some hot studs behind your back, you cannot will "your share" in the HDB flat to your favorite son simply because in a joint tenancy there is NO share, unlike a TIC where the share percentage is clearly demarcated. As long both you and your wife own the HDB flat as joint tenants, she will have full and absolute ownership of your HDB flat if you up the lorry before her, however sluttish she may have been.

    I would also add that the right of survivorship is not exclusive to HDB flat. It applies to all joint tenancy in all private properties, 99 leasehold or freehold, as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
  15. Papsmearer

    Papsmearer Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp Old Timer

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    The joint tenancy or tenancy in common in many cases is used to perpetuate the right of survivorship. In practice in singapore and elsewhere, the asset transfer to a sole survivor is done through the legal instrument of a tenancy in common or a will.

    I give you this example. Mother and father married and "purchased" a HDB flat at the start of the 99 year lease. They are registered as joint tenants on the deed for the flat. Father dies 50 years later, and now the mother as the surviving tenant in common is the sole "owner" of the flat. Lets say this couple has a single child. The surviving mother can choose to add her to the title, so that when the mother dies, the daughter will become the sole "owner" of the flat. this is right of survivorship in practice. Also, the flat can be willed to the daughter upon the mother's death. Why I say this is a valuable is because in any other long term lease commercial lease transactions eg for cars, or for shopping units, etc. you cannot just have the lease continue with any other person then the one that signed the lease. Its usually not "transferable" in any shape or form. But in the case of the HDB 99 year leases, the lease is valid for others until the end. This is a valuable aspect of the lease.
     

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