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Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa Payo

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parliament
Was flat being watched, ask MPs
That Mas Selamat could go undetected in flat 'was not a security lapse'
By Jeremy Au Yong, Political Correspondent

THE work of Singapore's security forces came under scrutiny yesterday from MPs as they wondered how terrorist Mas Selamat Kastari was able to evade detection while spending the night at the home of an elder brother.

Mr Hri Kumar Nair (Bishan-Toa Payoh GRC) asked if the home of Mas Selamat's brother, Asmom, was under surveillance in the manhunt that followed the escape.

Nominated MP Viswa Sadasivan chimed in: 'Given the fact that there can't be that many immediate members of the family, on the day of the escape, shouldn't it have been standard operating procedure for the security forces to actually go down to the homes of the immediate family members?'

Ms Ellen Lee (Sembawang GRC) asked if police questioning of family members had been thorough enough, as the brother's family appeared to have managed to keep their cool.

In response, Home Affairs Minister K. Shanmugam mounted a stout defence of the security forces, stating categorically that the authorities had acted correctly in the search for Mas Selamat.

To Ms Lee's question, he noted that interviews produce the best results when some facts are already known and the interviewee can be confronted with these facts. This was why a recent interview with Asmom's family yielded confirmation of their role in harbouring Mas Selamat when an earlier interview in March 2008 had yielded nothing.

To Mr Nair and Mr Viswa, he explained that Mas Selamat's loose network of friends, relatives and former Jemaah Islamiah (JI) associates was extensive, and included a few hundred people.

Mr Shanmugam declined to say if Asmom's flat had been under surveillance, arguing that this was a matter of operational security and 'not in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters'.

He assured MPs, however, that his ministry had reviewed what was done, and he was 'satisfied that all the necessary steps had been taken'.

Giving their take on the revelations yesterday, security experts and political watchers said they did not think there had been a security lapse resulting in Mas Selamat managing to go undetected in Tampines.

Singapore Management University law lecturer Eugene Tan noted that Mas Selamat chose a counter-intuitive course of action. He said: 'If I were him, I suppose the last thing I would do would be to call upon a family member and risk implicating them. What I would do is try and leave the country.'

Security consultant Susan Sim said it was not realistic to expect the authorities to watch all of the terrorist's contacts simultaneously. She said: 'There are several layers in a manhunt. You start with previous comrades. Then you widen to people he worked with and extended family.

'Unless you have unlimited resources, there are only so many people you can watch at a time. Mas Selamat had hundreds of contacts. He was a bus mechanic. Do you go after all his former colleagues? Do you engage in a witch hunt, or act on the basis of information? We all like to connect the dots, but usually the lines are visible only after the fact.'

Terrorism expert Rohan Gunaratna, from the International Centre for Political Violence and Terrorism Research at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies (RSIS), believed that in this case, former JI members would likely have been watched first.

'Traditionally, the JI had used its members for escape, not family members. So guided by past information, the authorities may have given priority to JI members, especially since Mas Selamat had not been in touch with this brother for years,' he said, adding that having more personnel might be the only solution.

Even then, Mas Selamat might be able to slip past surveillance, Dr Kumar Ramakrishna, another RSIS terrorism expert, said.

'These terrorists receive training in counter-surveillance. Mas Selamat was probably very good at it,' he said.

For private investigator and former policeman Lionel De Souza, an HDB flat was a difficult place to conduct surveillance.

'It depends on the flat, whether it's an internal or external corridor and whether the flat is on a high floor.You need a minimum of three people to watch one target. There is no place to hide and conceal yourself while watching. You can sit at the void deck, but how long can you sit there? People will get suspicious,' he said.

[email protected]
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Isn't there a chinese saying.... "The most dangerous place is the safest place?" So I think MSK didn't take any Chinese but probably heard that from his chinese friends while in school. ..
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Mr Shanmugam declined to say if Asmom's flat had been under surveillance, arguing that this was a matter of operational security and 'not in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters'.

'These terrorists receive training in counter-surveillance. Mas Selamat was probably very good at it,' he said.

For private investigator and former policeman Lionel De Souza, an HDB flat was a difficult place to conduct surveillance.

'It depends on the flat, whether it's an internal or external corridor and whether the flat is on a high floor.You need a minimum of three people to watch one target. There is no place to hide and conceal yourself while watching. You can sit at the void deck, but how long can you sit there? People will get suspicious,' he said.

[email protected]

Nonsense from these chaps.

We all knew there was surveillance and 'some other things' done to find out the whereabouts of MSK. Surveillance is the most basic tool. ALL PIs, even Lionel De Souza, has to conduct surveillance in the course of his assignment. Nothing sensitive on this aspect of intelligence. Don't see how this involves operational security. MORE LIKELY THEY LOST MSK EVEN WHEN SURVEILLANCE WAS ON. So, now malu, says it is not in the interest of S'pore to disclose these things. Nonsense!

MSK very good in counter-surveillance? Even my toes are laughing! What kind of counter-S techniques was he trained? I dare bet very basic coz of the time he spent 'under training'. Dare we say we are professional soldiers after 3 months BMT? Can a graduate of the 3 mths BMT completely defeat the Police, Army and ICA in the manhunt? Their strategy is simple - make MSK sound as if he was the best trained terrorist in this world so that their inadequacies won't look that bad. Don't forget - MSK is a limping terrorist.

HDB most difficult place to conduct surveillance? Another piece of shit from Lionel. What is the objective of surveillance on this case? To find out if MSK is in the flat, the movement of its occupants etc. No one asked Lionel to trail MSK or anyone for that matter inside the flat. In addition, you can even sit near ythe lift lobbies to perform your task and not hiding in some mosquito infested area. I think it got to that stage that it was open surveillance, meaning they don't bother if members of public knew their identities.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

HDB most difficult place to conduct surveillance? Another piece of shit from Lionel. What is the objective of surveillance on this case? To find out if MSK is in the flat, the movement of its occupants etc. No one asked Lionel to trail MSK or anyone for that matter inside the flat. In addition, you can even sit near ythe lift lobbies to perform your task and not hiding in some mosquito infested area. I think it got to that stage that it was open surveillance, meaning they don't bother if members of public knew their identities.

Nobody sits near lift lobbies or corridors for surveillance, unless he's a anti-police gambling den or brothel scout. They install CCTV eyes wired to a CCTV room where they watch the monitors.

If you've seen these equipment in action before, you'd know it's not hard to avoid arousing alert by some disguise and acting naturally. That said, it's also not hard for a vigilant officer to catch something off the norm and initiate action. I'd have to agree that it's MSK 1 SPF 0 in this surveillance game. Even a few false alarms would be worth the while, as MSK would have been cornered to homeless and resourceless and easier to be exposed and caught.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

MSK very good in counter-surveillance? Even my toes are laughing! What kind of counter-S techniques was he trained? I dare bet very basic coz of the time he spent 'under training'. Dare we say we are professional soldiers after 3 months BMT? Can a graduate of the 3 mths BMT completely defeat the Police, Army and ICA in the manhunt? Their strategy is simple - make MSK sound as if he was the best trained terrorist in this world so that their inadequacies won't look that bad. Don't forget - MSK is a limping terrorist.

Like all humans, he made mistakes. This is like the 3rd of 4th time he has been arrested. So he is no superman.

He is just lucky.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Selamat Hairy Raya Gaji !!!:o
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Nowadays with all the stupid STOMPER around. I'm sure the officers dun want to kenna 'STOMPED' by those idiots even if it is an 'open' surveillance. Imagine, someone post a title "Officers conducting surveillance downstairs my block waiting for Mas Selamat!".

This one will kenna big time again and everyone will say stupid poodle, dun know how to conduct surveillance.

Nobody sits near lift lobbies or corridors for surveillance, unless he's a anti-police gambling den or brothel scout. They install CCTV eyes wired to a CCTV room where they watch the monitors.

If you've seen these equipment in action before, you'd know it's not hard to avoid arousing alert by some disguise and acting naturally. That said, it's also not hard for a vigilant officer to catch something off the norm and initiate action. I'd have to agree that it's MSK 1 SPF 0 in this surveillance game. Even a few false alarms would be worth the while, as MSK would have been cornered to homeless and resourceless and easier to be exposed and caught.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

parliament
Was flat being watched, ask MPs
That Mas Selamat could go undetected in flat 'was not a security lapse'
By Jeremy Au Yong, Political Correspondent

THE work of Singapore's security forces came under scrutiny yesterday from MPs as they wondered how terrorist Mas Selamat Kastari was able to evade detection while spending the night at the home of an elder brother.

Mr Hri Kumar Nair (Bishan-Toa Payoh GRC) asked if the home of Mas Selamat's brother, Asmom, was under surveillance in the manhunt that followed the escape.

Nominated MP Viswa Sadasivan chimed in: 'Given the fact that there can't be that many immediate members of the family, on the day of the escape, shouldn't it have been standard operating procedure for the security forces to actually go down to the homes of the immediate family members?'

Ms Ellen Lee (Sembawang GRC) asked if police questioning of family members had been thorough enough, as the brother's family appeared to have managed to keep their cool.

In response, Home Affairs Minister K. Shanmugam mounted a stout defence of the security forces, stating categorically that the authorities had acted correctly in the search for Mas Selamat.

To Ms Lee's question, he noted that interviews produce the best results when some facts are already known and the interviewee can be confronted with these facts. This was why a recent interview with Asmom's family yielded confirmation of their role in harbouring Mas Selamat when an earlier interview in March 2008 had yielded nothing.

To Mr Nair and Mr Viswa, he explained that Mas Selamat's loose network of friends, relatives and former Jemaah Islamiah (JI) associates was extensive, and included a few hundred people.

Mr Shanmugam declined to say if Asmom's flat had been under surveillance, arguing that this was a matter of operational security and 'not in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters'.

He assured MPs, however, that his ministry had reviewed what was done, and he was 'satisfied that all the necessary steps had been taken'.

Giving their take on the revelations yesterday, security experts and political watchers said they did not think there had been a security lapse resulting in Mas Selamat managing to go undetected in Tampines.

Singapore Management University law lecturer Eugene Tan noted that Mas Selamat chose a counter-intuitive course of action. He said: 'If I were him, I suppose the last thing I would do would be to call upon a family member and risk implicating them. What I would do is try and leave the country.'

Security consultant Susan Sim said it was not realistic to expect the authorities to watch all of the terrorist's contacts simultaneously. She said: 'There are several layers in a manhunt. You start with previous comrades. Then you widen to people he worked with and extended family.

'Unless you have unlimited resources, there are only so many people you can watch at a time. Mas Selamat had hundreds of contacts. He was a bus mechanic. Do you go after all his former colleagues? Do you engage in a witch hunt, or act on the basis of information? We all like to connect the dots, but usually the lines are visible only after the fact.'

Terrorism expert Rohan Gunaratna, from the International Centre for Political Violence and Terrorism Research at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies (RSIS), believed that in this case, former JI members would likely have been watched first.

'Traditionally, the JI had used its members for escape, not family members. So guided by past information, the authorities may have given priority to JI members, especially since Mas Selamat had not been in touch with this brother for years,' he said, adding that having more personnel might be the only solution.

Even then, Mas Selamat might be able to slip past surveillance, Dr Kumar Ramakrishna, another RSIS terrorism expert, said.

'These terrorists receive training in counter-surveillance. Mas Selamat was probably very good at it,' he said.

For private investigator and former policeman Lionel De Souza, an HDB flat was a difficult place to conduct surveillance.

'It depends on the flat, whether it's an internal or external corridor and whether the flat is on a high floor.You need a minimum of three people to watch one target. There is no place to hide and conceal yourself while watching. You can sit at the void deck, but how long can you sit there? People will get suspicious,' he said.

[email protected]


hi there


1. any daft sheep or idiots could have easily ask the same questions man!
2. wayang wayang.
3. go straight to the point; who is to be responsible for such shabby job?
4. heads must roll right!
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Nobody sits near lift lobbies or corridors for surveillance, unless he's a anti-police gambling den or brothel scout. They install CCTV eyes wired to a CCTV room where they watch the monitors.

If you've seen these equipment in action before, you'd know it's not hard to avoid arousing alert by some disguise and acting naturally. That said, it's also not hard for a vigilant officer to catch something off the norm and initiate action. I'd have to agree that it's MSK 1 SPF 0 in this surveillance game. Even a few false alarms would be worth the while, as MSK would have been cornered to homeless and resourceless and easier to be exposed and caught.

Have you heard of the equiptment called THE BINOCULARS...all these wayang again...election coming, we must be vigilant, we must not be complacent, we must vote for the best who can provide you with the best security (sic!)..we are the champion...we are SINgapore!!;)
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Have you heard of the equiptment called THE BINOCULARS...all these wayang again...election coming, we must be vigilant, we must not be complacent, we must vote for the best who can provide you with the best security (sic!)..we are the champion...we are SINgapore!!;)

You've watched too many spies and detectives movies. The real world don't work that way. What's the location and storey of the flat? What building is it facing or is it completely unblocked till the horizon? If there's an opposite building, is a suitable flat available? The movie scripts made it so that all fugitives' and criminals' hideouts seem to be surveyable.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

In this instance, there is no need for stealth......unformed cops should have been posted at the relatives' housing blocks to deter MAS from seeking shelter.... in effect driving him into the open...

I also wonder if the homes of relatives had been raided?.... this would deter those inclined to help MAS.

In short, it was plain INCOMPETENCE.... and Shan should just say so...otherwise his own credibility is in doubt too!
 
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Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Quote:>>>Mr Shanmugam declined to say if Asmom's flat had been under surveillance, arguing that this was a matter of operational security and 'not in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters'.<<<

Pay this Minister millions of dollars and he gives you 10-cent excuses to cover his and his Ministry's incompetency.

I bet you it never crossed his mind to keep surveillance on Mat Selamat's family members. Now, he says it is "in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters".

Wong Kan Seng and Shanmugan should resign and save us millions of dollars.

Not forgetiing the MM Lee and his son too. They are all a waste of public funds.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Agree. Shanmugam is an idiot. We are not talking about watching a few hundred people but his immediate family. ISD has more than a thousand people and not forgetting Divisional detectives, investigators and even the resident clowns like Lionel and Davy Chan.



Nonsense from these chaps.

We all knew there was surveillance and 'some other things' done to find out the whereabouts of MSK. Surveillance is the most basic tool. ALL PIs, even Lionel De Souza, has to conduct surveillance in the course of his assignment. Nothing sensitive on this aspect of intelligence. Don't see how this involves operational security. MORE LIKELY THEY LOST MSK EVEN WHEN SURVEILLANCE WAS ON. So, now malu, says it is not in the interest of S'pore to disclose these things. Nonsense!

.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

This is truly embarrassing. They should indeed resign and just give it up.

Quote:>>>Mr Shanmugam declined to say if Asmom's flat had been under surveillance, arguing that this was a matter of operational security and 'not in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters'.<<<

Pay this Minister millions of dollars and he gives you 10-cent excuses to cover his and his Ministry's incompetency.

I bet you it never crossed his mind to keep surveillance on Mat Selamat's family members. Now, he says it is "in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters".

Wong Kan Seng and Shanmugan should resign and save us millions of dollars.

Not forgetiing the MM Lee and his son too. They are all a waste of public funds.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

One would have thought as a matter of common sense even w/o the benefit of hindsight to keep his family members (esp. a male member) under close 24/7 surveilance to rule out harbouring. This they didn't do or if they did, they somehow let him escape the dragnet. Damn malu that's why must make excuses now. To call a spade a spade, they were outmanouevered and outsmarted by a limping middle-aged uncle! What happened to all those six-packed action men toting guns and rifles? Jiakliaobi!:D:D
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Nobody sits near lift lobbies or corridors for surveillance, unless he's a anti-police gambling den or brothel scout. They install CCTV eyes wired to a CCTV room where they watch the monitors.

If you've seen these equipment in action before, you'd know it's not hard to avoid arousing alert by some disguise and acting naturally. That said, it's also not hard for a vigilant officer to catch something off the norm and initiate action. I'd have to agree that it's MSK 1 SPF 0 in this surveillance game. Even a few false alarms would be worth the while, as MSK would have been cornered to homeless and resourceless and easier to be exposed and caught.

Agree with your assessment. They usually install covert CCTVs to moniitor select locations. In the case of MSK, there were far too many to install. The logistics and the need for secrecy in installing these CCTVs must have given decision makers a big headache.

I suspect, after the above was rejected, they turned to the traditional method. It was to be as discreet as possible as all surveillance must be. Perhaps they succeeded in the beginning. When many 999 calls were received as to strangers loitering with intent 24/7, they decided to conduct open surveillance. They were also getting more desperate as each day went by without any lead to MSK's whereabouts.

All resources were mobilised to conduct these observations, almost all at HDB flats. It was 8 or 12 hr shifts. By then MSK already left for M'sia. As a result of poor or no intelligence, imagine the number of man hours wasted. Not forgetting makan 3 meals a day for all involved. The caterer struck lottery coz our intellience was not up to the mark.

The whole episode just made us the laughing stock and mother of all embarrassment. All Shanmugam is doing now is to limit the damage already done. The more he hides the worse it becomes. But he has to protect WKS so, nonsense must prevail. Sadly, not everybody is stupid enough to believe everything dished out.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

In this instance, there is no need for stealth......unformed cops should have been posted at the relatives' housing blocks to deter MAS from seeking shelter.... in effect driving him into the open...

I also wonder if the homes of relatives had been raided?.... this would deter those inclined to help MAS.

In short, it was plain INCOMPETENCE.... and Shan should just say so...otherwise his own credibility is in doubt too!

Yes, Harry Lee. Agree with you. I suspect by the time they got their act together, MSK was already up north. But at least they put in effort to recover the lost item!
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Quote:>>>Mr Shanmugam declined to say if Asmom's flat had been under surveillance, arguing that this was a matter of operational security and 'not in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters'.<<<

Pay this Minister millions of dollars and he gives you 10-cent excuses to cover his and his Ministry's incompetency.

I bet you it never crossed his mind to keep surveillance on Mat Selamat's family members. Now, he says it is "in the interest of our country for us to disclose these matters".

Wong Kan Seng and Shanmugan should resign and save us millions of dollars.

Not forgetiing the MM Lee and his son too. They are all a waste of public funds.

More likely they assessed that the flat was vacant. MSK got no keys, can't get in. Brother of MSK don't live here but in JB so needn't visit or monitor. That could also have influenced the investigators when the harbourers were interviewed. All of this resulted with poor or no intelligence. One wrong assumption led to more wrong assumptions.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

Agree. Shanmugam is an idiot. We are not talking about watching a few hundred people but his immediate family. ISD has more than a thousand people and not forgetting Divisional detectives, investigators and even the resident clowns like Lionel and Davy Chan.

Have to disagree with you on Shanmugam being an idiot. He is a brilliant chap. But this time round, he is under the Lan Lan Act to do as told - he must 'protect' WKS even if in the course of doing so, he looks like an idiot. Sorry, on second thoughts, you are right - Shanmugam is an idiot!!!! And a big one too.
 
Re: Why Mas selamat brother was not being monitor asked Hri Kumar Nair MP Bishan-Toa

One would have thought as a matter of common sense even w/o the benefit of hindsight to keep his family members (esp. a male member) under close 24/7 surveilance to rule out harbouring. This they didn't do or if they did, they somehow let him escape the dragnet. Damn malu that's why must make excuses now. To call a spade a spade, they were outmanouevered and outsmarted by a limping middle-aged uncle! What happened to all those six-packed action men toting guns and rifles? Jiakliaobi!:D:D

hi there

1. honest, if some pi can do the job watching and capturing spouse cheating in some flat, hse or what.
2. why can't sheep do likewise?
3. being paid millions and blah so much on world-crass efficiency!
4. this is what sheep get.
5. complacency at its utmost!
 
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