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Tang Dynasty people did not speak Mandarin !

whatthink

Alfrescian
Loyal
Thanks god Sun Yat Sen didn't pick Hokkien as China National Language, can you imagine everywhere you go, these PRC KNNCCB here n there (Chinatown, hawker center, bus, MRT, school, shopping mail, airport....) :p

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/qNP7cps46ow" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Hokkien is a beautiful language
 

Glaringly

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
t'ang court survivors and refugees from the north moved south in droves before and during the fall of the t'ang dynasty.

with refugees and survivors crowding the south in each succeeding rise and fall of dynasties, the blending of clans and tongues were inevitable. some "guests" from the north actually created mini-fortresses in the south and lived through generations unmolested by invaders. in enclaves such as swatow and xiamen, the t'ang identity still exists to this day. many t'ang cultural relics and temples of that era were preserved, due to remoteness from invasion, wars, unrest and destruction in the middle and the north.

So, we are all losers with some hiding in enclaves to seek sanctuary.

Why are we so proud to be associated to Tang? :mad:
 

HTOLAS

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
This is a great thread - much thought and scholarship. Even Kinana has risen above his usual rants. Congratulations. Let me add a little of what I know.

Not only were 19th century Chinese emigrants to the West, especially the US, mainly from the southern provinces, most were in fact from just 4 counties in Guangdong, collectively known as Seiyup (四邑 - siyi in hypy). They were pressed into working on the east west railroad that made the US possible. This is why for a long time, the US perception of the Chinese language was not Mandarin but Seiyup.

This brings me to the common misconception that the southern provinces had one language each, i.e. Guangdong had Cantonese, Fujian had Fujianhua, etc. In fact, the southern provinces were extremely diverse linguistically. The variants of Seiyup, for instance, are incomprehensible to most other Cantonese speakers. The same can be said for the more distinct forms of Shun Tuck (Shunde in hypy). Similar distinctions can be found in Fujian, Guangxi, Anhui, etc.

One could never hope to learn, let alone master all these languages. For that, I'm happy that there is a common Mandarin to facilitate communication among Chinese people in China. But what I cannot understand is why the PAPzis under LKY chose the option of linguisticide - murdering these other languages, or else denigrating them to the level of market dialects. This is cultural destruction.
 

eatshitndie

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
So, we are all losers with some hiding in enclaves to seek sanctuary.

Why are we so proud to be associated to Tang? :mad:

it's called denial. and a clueless sense of misplaced nostalgia and pride. just like sinkies pining for good old days of the 80s before the cuntry was invaded by hordes of neh, tiong and pinoy. :rolleyes:
 

lesMISERABLES

Alfrescian
Loyal
2. Hokkiens are the surviving descendants of the Tang Dynasty -- When the Tang Dynasty collapsed, the people of the Tang Dynasty fled South and sought refuge in the Hokkien ( Fujian 福建省) province. Hence, Hokkien called themselves Tng-lang (唐人(比喻为唐朝子孙) Tang Ren or People of the Tang Dynasty) instead of Hua Lang (华人 Hua Ren).

I wish to set the record straight.

Li Bian 李昪 was an orphan who usurped power in the State of Wu in 937 AD during the "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" 五代十国 period. He later proclaimed himself to be the legitimate successor of the Tang Dynasty and he established the Southern Tang Dynasty. There is no evidence to prove that he was a direct descendant of the royal family of the Tang Dynasty.

Conclusion: The Southern Tang Dynasty was not a continuation of the Tang Dynasty.
 
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Liquigas

Alfrescian
Loyal
Mandarin Chinese and its many variants is the mother tongue of the Chinese people living in north, central and southwestern China. Incidentally these regions are also the ancestral land of the Han Chinese for thousands of years. As for the southern provinces of Guangdong and Fujian, the original inhabitants of these regions are not Han Chinese but the ancient Yue tribes. Over the centuries Han settlers from the north intermixed with the natives and the local population gradually adopted Han culture and custom and finally became totally sinified.

So Mandarin actually is the native language of the Han Chinese and not that of people inhabiting in the southern provinces which therefore should be encouraged to retain their respective native languages. Mandarin is only a unifying tool and the central government will never force the use of Mandarin in the south. Chiang Kai-Shek tried that when KMT fled to Taiwan in 1949 but failed in his effort to replace the local languages with Mandarin.
 

halsey02

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
ever watch beijing opera?

Beijing Opera not very popular here, only for the elite. Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese & lesser others, like Hainanese, Hakka, Hock Chew ( I hope I got this right)...& there was the "mong kar chng " or puppet shows, in dialects...

Beijing Opera only for those private viewing or play houses in Chinatown, North Bridge Rd areas...

Now we have PAP Opera...:biggrin:
 

Jah_rastafar_I

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Unfortunately hokkkien in Sg is seen as low class and mostly spoken by lower educated ppl and famous for its swear words.
 

halsey02

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
This is a great thread - much thought and scholarship. Even Kinana has risen above his usual rants. Congratulations. Let me add a little of what I know.

Not only were 19th century Chinese emigrants to the West, especially the US, mainly from the southern provinces, most were in fact from just 4 counties in Guangdong, collectively known as Seiyup (四邑 - siyi in hypy). They were pressed into working on the east west railroad that made the US possible. This is why for a long time, the US perception of the Chinese language was not Mandarin but Seiyup.

This brings me to the common misconception that the southern provinces had one language each, i.e. Guangdong had Cantonese, Fujian had Fujianhua, etc. In fact, the southern provinces were extremely diverse linguistically. The variants of Seiyup, for instance, are incomprehensible to most other Cantonese speakers. The same can be said for the more distinct forms of Shun Tuck (Shunde in hypy). Similar distinctions can be found in Fujian, Guangxi, Anhui, etc.

One could never hope to learn, let alone master all these languages. For that, I'm happy that there is a common Mandarin to facilitate communication among Chinese people in China. But what I cannot understand is why the PAPzis under LKY chose the option of linguisticide - murdering these other languages, or else denigrating them to the level of market dialects. This is cultural destruction.

Seiyup or Taishanese..were the bulk of the people moving to North America...Australia...Seiyup has almost or completely died here, I have not heard Shun Tuck spoken for ages here..for the people of that generation have all died..even the "seiyup" people, if I am not mistaken, most of the "hong Tau Ping"..the women that worked in the construction industry in SINgapore were mostly "seiyup". My ancestors were from that region of Taishan, Gongzhou, I am the last of the "dinosaur" that can speak a little "seiyup", understand simple sentences..
 

halsey02

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Can you elaborate? Thank you.

No...there were a large population of Cantonese living in what is known as cholon, aka Saigon & now Ho Chi Minh City...the vietnamese maybe incorporated some Cantonese into their spoken language..
 

ZombieFart

Alfrescian
Loyal
No...there were a large population of Cantonese living in what is known as cholon, aka Saigon & now Ho Chi Minh City...the vietnamese maybe incorporated some Cantonese into their spoken language..

Like you, I believe it is a cultural influence.
I am open to a different view, except UFO. :smile:
 

Froggy

Alfrescian (InfP) + Mod
Moderator
Generous Asset
Happy Birthday

I wish to set the record straight.

Li Bian 李昪 was an orphan who usurped power in the State of Wu in 937 AD during the "Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms" 五代十国 period. He later proclaimed himself to be the legitimate successor of the Tang Dynasty and he established the Southern Tang Dynasty. There is no evidence to prove that he was a direct descendant of the royal family of the Tang Dynasty.

Conclusion: The Southern Tang Dynasty was not a continuation of the Tang Dynasty.
 

whoami

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
5. The collection of the famous "Three Hundred Tang Dynasty Poems" (唐诗三百首) sound better when recited in Hokkien/Teochew if compared to Mandarin.

Though I am not a Chinese. But i like to watch Teochew opera during those kampong days. May not really ustand wat they r saying/singing. But their high pitch tone sounds nice. Definitely sounds nicer than those beijing or mandarin opera, imo.

Never neglect or lost touch of ur own dialect. Be proud of where u come fm. Use or converse it at home. Pity most of the Chinese children nowadays. They cant even converse with their grand parents who cant speak Mandarin...
 
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Froggy

Alfrescian (InfP) + Mod
Moderator
Generous Asset
Bro this Yue tribes anything to do with Viets

Mandarin Chinese and its many variants is the mother tongue of the Chinese people living in north, central and southwestern China. Incidentally these regions are also the ancestral land of the Han Chinese for thousands of years. As for the southern provinces of Guangdong and Fujian, the original inhabitants of these regions are not Han Chinese but the ancient Yue tribes. Over the centuries Han settlers from the north intermixed with the natives and the local population gradually adopted Han culture and custom and finally became totally sinified.

So Mandarin actually is the native language of the Han Chinese and not that of people inhabiting in the southern provinces which therefore should be encouraged to retain their respective native languages. Mandarin is only a unifying tool and the central government will never force the use of Mandarin in the south. Chiang Kai-Shek tried that when KMT fled to Taiwan in 1949 but failed in his effort to replace the local languages with Mandarin.
 

The_Hypocrite

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Cantonese in canton is also called 'white language'. Though i dont know why.

I want to know why:

Southern Chinese called themselves 唐人 (Tang Dynasty people), not 华人 (Ethnic Chinese).

Chinatowns all over the world are called 唐人街 not 华人街 or 中国人街

In China, Cantonese is called 粤语 "Yue language" and not 广东话 "Guangdong language". Only Hongkong, Macau and overseas chinese called Cantonese 廣東話 (广东话)
 
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