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UOB's $181m suit over 'inflated housing loans'

JohorRookie

Alfrescian
Loyal
No case la unless they can prove lippo conspired with agent and buyers.
Else the buck stops with the agent.....how to get back the 181 million?
Riadys are master crooks.....guess UOB got fucked good

If we were to trace the timeline, Lippo probably had their own lawyers and the buyers too had their own. I know it's not uncommon for seller and buyer to be represented by the same lawyer, but where developers are involved, buyers have always been separately represented.

The buyers would probably have submitted the S&P Agreement to the bank as proof of the purchase price. If Lippo had given a 30% discount, this fact ought to have been made known in the S&P Agreement. With lawyers from both sides involved, we are looking at multiple layers of checks and balances:

Lippo's (developer) lawyers - Firm X
Lippo's bank's lawyers - Firm Y (or Firm X)

Buyers' lawyers - Firm Z
Buyers' bank's lawyer - likely Firm Z too

In order to ask for drawdown of funds from the buyers' bank, the buyer's lawyer will have to prepare a completion account for inspection by the buyer's bank's lawyers, and copy to the seller's lawyers. All parties will have to agree on the completion account (which reflects the actual price) before money is released.

I just don't see how Lippo can claim ignorance and innocence.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
The information released so far is just the tip of the iceberg. More info will come out in the course of the lawsuit, but right now, the ramifications are quite significant. My observations are as follows:

1) UOB should fire its lawyer Tan Kok Quan partnership. This lawsuit has no legs to stand on. The damages of $181 million is for the sum of all the mortgages that it loaned to the 37 buyers that defaulted. The number was arrived as follows: Average price of the 124 units in the development was $6 million. 80% loan amount of the 37 units based on $6 million each is approximately this number. But the damages cannot actually be determined until the units have been sold. If the units are sold at a loss, then UOB can direct its lawyers to recover the difference, but they cannot be directing their lawyers to recover the entire mortgage amount. If the properties were sold for a profit, there is no damages whatsover.

Currently, if the unit is defaulted by the bank, the bank essentially owns it. It has to sell it to recover as much as possible. If it sold the unit under default auction for only $3 million, and the mortgage given by the bank to the buyer was $4.75 million, then the bank is entitled to go after the buyer for the remaining difference of $1.75 million. This $1.75 million is the responsibility of the buyer to pay under the personal guarantee that he/she signed. If the bank cannot recover this, it can then allege fraud and go after other parties. In any case, the damages cannot be $181 million because the condos have not been liquidated yet. If using my example of a $1.75 million loss per unit, actual damages are 37 X $1.75 million or $64.75 million, not $181 million. UOB seems to have skipped a few steps and gone straight to the main action. Lippo's lawyer, Premier Law, will simply say that the $181 million loss is not proven as the units have not been sold, and they would be right. the lawsuit was "conspiracy to cause loss" by Lippo. But as far as I can see, no material losses have been caused.

2) UOB appears to be suing the biggest fish Lippo because the other parties involved (the buyers and the agents) do not have the money to pay them back. Not exactly a sound strategy as Lippo will not go quietly into the night, and they have the resources to hire the good lawyers and go many rounds with them.

3) Why isn't UOB suing the property valuators who did the appraisals on the properties to allow the mortgages in the first place? Its not conceivable to me that the bank did not use a valuator even though the property is new. The valuator can look at other comparables and arrive a valuation. Or they can look at other sales in the development and come to the price of $6million. without the valuators confirming the price, the bank would not have given the mortgage. SISV should have liability insurance for its property valuator members to cover such contingencies whereby one of their valuators caused a loss to be suffered through a grossly inaccurate report.

4) Why did UOB not sue the actual lawyers for the Lippo who issued a letter stating that the rest of the down payment had been received from the buyers? They can easily claim the lawyers lied to them. they cannot blame Lippo since lawyers employed by Lippo are not supposed to break the law on behalf of their clients.

5) It seems to me that its UOB's loan practices that are in question here. Did they not do a credit check, income and asset verifications, liabilities verification, TDSR calculations etc on these borrowers. It seems from the get go that these are not actual qualified buyers. But the onus is on the bank to figure this out. they declined people for mortgages all the time. They claim the buyers moved the downpayment money around so that each of them appeared to have sufficient deposit funds. But the onus on the bank is to request for 3 months of statements showing the money has been there for a while, or some other confirmation of where the funds come from. Lippo is correct in saying the mortgages and applications are strictly between the buyer and the bank, and they are right. Lippos lawyers will have a field day in court on this point alone.

What this means for all singaporeans whether local or foreign buyers is that the banks will tighten up their lending criteria. expect to see more onerous requirements for down payment confirmation, income verification, etc. In other words, it will be harder to get approved for private and higher end properties. If I were UOB, I would have just sold the units, and see what losses I suffered. Then sue the valuators, agents and buyers for the rest. However, Old man Wee and Old goat Lee Con You were very close buddies and golfing partners. Its possible that UOB expects the kangaroo courts to be rigged in its favour and received the go ahead from the power brokers to go after Lippo for the money. But still, I have not seen anything like this before. If actual fraud was committed, the police should be involved under commercial crimes and not become a civil court case that it is. Its possible the police investigated and found no grounds for a fraudulent prosecution.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
I just don't see how Lippo can claim ignorance and innocence.

Lippo is not claiming ignorance. Lippo already admits that it gave discounts of between 25 and 34% as its marketing strategy. Such discounts were things like furniture allowances, and actual discounts. But its not the role or responsibility of seller to inform the buyer's bank of these discounts. Most developers do not even know which bank their buyers deal with. The discount arrangements is between the buyer and the developer. Its the buyer's responsibility to disclose such discounts to the bank in his loan application. Another layer of protection that Lippo has is that it does no have direct contact at any stage of the transaction with the buyer. For instance, Lippo deal with the buyer's agent at the time of purchase, not the buyer himself. Lippo's lawyers deal with the buyer too or the buyer's lawyer. All these parties are their own independent professional bodies (i.e real estate agents, lawyers, etc). As professionals they are supposed to protect the parties involved. So really, UOB is shit out of luck.
 

JohorRookie

Alfrescian
Loyal
Lippo is not claiming ignorance. Lippo already admits that it gave discounts of between 25 and 34% as its marketing strategy. Such discounts were things like furniture allowances, and actual discounts.

It's the price that is stated on the S&P Agreement that matters. If actual discount was given, then it should be reflected accordingly in the S&P.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
It's the price that is stated on the S&P Agreement that matters. If actual discount was given, then it should be reflected accordingly in the S&P.

Not if the discount is not a cash discount nor a discount off the listed price. My understanding is that "furniture rebates" were given. That is a grey area as that is not an outright discount. I know some developments I looked at overseas that offered a free car if you buy the unit. Is this car considered a discount and should the valuation be changed? hard to determine. But a 25-34% furniture rebate is defintely excessive. But its not uncommon to sell the remaining units at a bigger discount to get of of them. The issue is that did the other owners get a large discount too? If 38 buyers got it and the remaining 86 did not, u might see a class action lawsuit from them. And it will damage Lippo's reputation for sure. Lippo is definitely trying to blow out the units and move to the next project. whether it constitutes a deliberate fraud or not is really up in the end. The rebate was definitely a side deal cut outside the S & P. And for sure, Lippo knew what it was doing. I can tell you that this "trick" is used by Lippo on other units not financed by UOB. But you don't see the other banks launching a lawsuit. The key is that UOB did not do its due diligence properly. If the buyers cannot debt service, its not the fault of Lippo. Also, if the valuation did not come in at $6 million, the bank would not have loan that large amount. UOB has to take some responsibility too.
 

hofmann

Alfrescian
Loyal
Not if the discount is not a cash discount nor a discount off the listed price. My understanding is that "furniture rebates" were given. That is a grey area as that is not an outright discount. I know some developments I looked at overseas that offered a free car if you buy the unit. Is this car considered a discount and should the valuation be changed? hard to determine. But a 25-34% furniture rebate is defintely excessive. But its not uncommon to sell the remaining units at a bigger discount to get of of them. The issue is that did the other owners get a large discount too? If 38 buyers got it and the remaining 86 did not, u might see a class action lawsuit from them. And it will damage Lippo's reputation for sure. Lippo is definitely trying to blow out the units and move to the next project. whether it constitutes a deliberate fraud or not is really up in the end. The rebate was definitely a side deal cut outside the S & P. And for sure, Lippo knew what it was doing. I can tell you that this "trick" is used by Lippo on other units not financed by UOB. But you don't see the other banks launching a lawsuit. The key is that UOB did not do its due diligence properly. If the buyers cannot debt service, its not the fault of Lippo. Also, if the valuation did not come in at $6 million, the bank would not have loan that large amount. UOB has to take some responsibility too.

i will never ever touch a development by the LIPPO people. buyers beware, buyers be warned.
 

longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
In initial lawsuit you sue for maximum amounts. Pointless to do back of the envelope calc. As lawsuit continues the other side will negotiate and agree to a lesser amount. UOB is looking from angle that whole deal is fraudulent to begin with and they want their money $181M back. They are not looking at it as a repo where buyer cannot pay their loan.

Natural to go after big fish and while Lippo maybe connected they are nothing compared to Wees. Lippos = wanna be bankers. UOB = holds banking license in Singapore. I believe the Riadys are banned from entering the USA.

The information released so far is just the tip of the iceberg. More info will come out in the course of the lawsuit, but right now, the ramifications are quite significant. My observations are as follows:

1) UOB should fire its lawyer Tan Kok Quan partnership. This lawsuit has no legs to stand on. The damages of $181 million is for the sum of all the mortgages that it loaned to the 37 buyers that defaulted. The number was arrived as follows: Average price of the 124 units in the development was $6 million. 80% loan amount of the 37 units based on $6 million each is approximately this number. But the damages cannot actually be determined until the units have been sold. If the units are sold at a loss, then UOB can direct its lawyers to recover the difference, but they cannot be directing their lawyers to recover the entire mortgage amount. If the properties were sold for a profit, there is no damages whatsover.

Currently, if the unit is defaulted by the bank, the bank essentially owns it. It has to sell it to recover as much as possible. If it sold the unit under default auction for only $3 million, and the mortgage given by the bank to the buyer was $4.75 million, then the bank is entitled to go after the buyer for the remaining difference of $1.75 million. This $1.75 million is the responsibility of the buyer to pay under the personal guarantee that he/she signed. If the bank cannot recover this, it can then allege fraud and go after other parties. In any case, the damages cannot be $181 million because the condos have not been liquidated yet. If using my example of a $1.75 million loss per unit, actual damages are 37 X $1.75 million or $64.75 million, not $181 million. UOB seems to have skipped a few steps and gone straight to the main action. Lippo's lawyer, Premier Law, will simply say that the $181 million loss is not proven as the units have not been sold, and they would be right. the lawsuit was "conspiracy to cause loss" by Lippo. But as far as I can see, no material losses have been caused.

2) UOB appears to be suing the biggest fish Lippo because the other parties involved (the buyers and the agents) do not have the money to pay them back. Not exactly a sound strategy as Lippo will not go quietly into the night, and they have the resources to hire the good lawyers and go many rounds with them.

3) Why isn't UOB suing the property valuators who did the appraisals on the properties to allow the mortgages in the first place? Its not conceivable to me that the bank did not use a valuator even though the property is new. The valuator can look at other comparables and arrive a valuation. Or they can look at other sales in the development and come to the price of $6million. without the valuators confirming the price, the bank would not have given the mortgage. SISV should have liability insurance for its property valuator members to cover such contingencies whereby one of their valuators caused a loss to be suffered through a grossly inaccurate report.

4) Why did UOB not sue the actual lawyers for the Lippo who issued a letter stating that the rest of the down payment had been received from the buyers? They can easily claim the lawyers lied to them. they cannot blame Lippo since lawyers employed by Lippo are not supposed to break the law on behalf of their clients.

5) It seems to me that its UOB's loan practices that are in question here. Did they not do a credit check, income and asset verifications, liabilities verification, TDSR calculations etc on these borrowers. It seems from the get go that these are not actual qualified buyers. But the onus is on the bank to figure this out. they declined people for mortgages all the time. They claim the buyers moved the downpayment money around so that each of them appeared to have sufficient deposit funds. But the onus on the bank is to request for 3 months of statements showing the money has been there for a while, or some other confirmation of where the funds come from. Lippo is correct in saying the mortgages and applications are strictly between the buyer and the bank, and they are right. Lippos lawyers will have a field day in court on this point alone.

What this means for all singaporeans whether local or foreign buyers is that the banks will tighten up their lending criteria. expect to see more onerous requirements for down payment confirmation, income verification, etc. In other words, it will be harder to get approved for private and higher end properties. If I were UOB, I would have just sold the units, and see what losses I suffered. Then sue the valuators, agents and buyers for the rest. However, Old man Wee and Old goat Lee Con You were very close buddies and golfing partners. Its possible that UOB expects the kangaroo courts to be rigged in its favour and received the go ahead from the power brokers to go after Lippo for the money. But still, I have not seen anything like this before. If actual fraud was committed, the police should be involved under commercial crimes and not become a civil court case that it is. Its possible the police investigated and found no grounds for a fraudulent prosecution.
 

CoffeeAhSoh

Alfrescian
Loyal
The information released so far is just the tip of the iceberg. More info will come out in the course of the lawsuit, but right now, the ramifications are quite significant. My observations are as follows:
.



Yes Sir . MasterPiece Leh ... Very Goooda Piece ... :smile:
 

CoffeeAhSoh

Alfrescian
Loyal
About Marina Collection


Development Name: Marina Collection
Property Type: Condominium
Developer: Lippo Marina Collection Pte Ltd
Tenure: 99-year Leasehold
Completion Year: 2011
# of Units: 124




PPHO.7549.V550.jpg
 

CoffeeAhSoh

Alfrescian
Loyal

UOB current holding = 38 units

= 38/124 unit = 30.64 % of the Entire Projects




How many units of M C is on Portfolio ??? 124 units ???
 

JHolmesJr

Alfrescian
Loyal
Wow....rivetting thread with some great legal points made by fellow singos. Nice one.

I could tell it was quality as i saw no sign of that retrenched bitter fucknut laksaboy.
 
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