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UOB's $181m suit over 'inflated housing loans'

Papsmearer

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Generous Asset
Not sure about American system but I would still go for the full $181M as my starting shot and negotiate from there. UOB lawyer is an experienced SC and he knows what he is doing. I am not a lawyer (perhaps a lawyer here might give their take of the situation) but what if they are saying that the initial agreement was null and void as the information provided was not correct. For example I paid $100M for a Picasso but later discovered that it is a fake. I have every right to ask for my money back and in such cases, Sotheby will refund the money.

Legal authorities might launch their own investigation down the road.

No idea how much Riadys are worth compared to Wees but as much as they try to buy influence they do not have good reputation. And they badly want to be bankers which they are not as Lippo Bank went up in smoke during Ton Yum meltdown. Meanwhile Wees control UOB with mkt cap close to $40B!

Definitely, the contract is not null and void. Consideration was given, property was exchanged, its all legal.

Using your analogy of the fake $100 million Picasso. Sotheby will be very reluctant to refund you your money. Why? You would have been told to get your own independent art appraiser to appraise the Picasso. You can not be stupid enough to rely on Sotheby's opinion as they are making a profit from selling you the painting. they are in a conflict of interest. This is the same with UOB, they must use their own appraisers (valuators) to determine the price of the units. But your analogy is not accurate as the issue is not the authenticity of the subject asset. In this case the units at the Marina Collection are not fake. they are very real and actual, where as your Picasso is a fake. At issue is the price.
 
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Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_chain




Sir, while doing your Research , please Do one on The Food Chain For this Whole Conspiracy Story ???

Thank you Sir !!!




So Far Many Players are left out :


a) the lawyers acting for the Parties in the Purchase / Sales / Banks

b) the Valuers to the 38 Units normally more than One firm involved

c) The Bank's Credit Marketing Mgrs / Officers .

d) The Banks Approving Mgrs.

e) ERA Group ( it has a Cut to the Agt comms also ) whether it was by passed

f) The most Senior Officer signing off the Loan Prosposal

All the players are already accounted for. The greed of UOB to do the loans and the greed of Lippo to sell the properties, as well as the greed of the agents and lawyers are all there to see.

From my research, the units were first offered for sale as new units and sold in 2007 at between $2500 and $2600 a sq. ft. By mid 2014, the price had already dropped to around $1400-$1500 per sq ft. a huge drop, in fact some units almost dropped 50% in price. But the common knowledge among my real estate agent friends is that the initial offer price in 2007 was the peak of the pricing for these units. I personally never bought in Sentosa, as I don't like 99 year leasehold. After that, it was pretty much a down trend in the price per sq ft as evidenced by resale pricing. As mentioned, the cooling measures of 2009 and the increase stamp duties of 2011 made the resale price lower then the original sale price. When UOB was approached to finance these units in 2011, anyone of their loan officers should have known that the prices that these units sold for (close to the original launch price of $2500 per sq ft) is simply not the market price now. Even a loan officer with cursory knowledge of the Sentosa developments would have known that the prices took a hit. Lets be clear on one thing. These loan officers who do $6million properties loans are not the branch guys that do the $400K HDB flat loans. They are supposed to be much more senior. And for this amount, they might even have had to go to a credit committee at the bank, because its beyond their approval limit. In any case, when the valuations came in supporting this high price, another set of alarm bells should have gone off at UOB. i.e. why are these particular 38 units worth $2500 per sq ft when all around it and in the same building, you can get resales units for $2000 per sq ft or less. If they are facing the sea, maybe. But those units are usually the ones that sell first.

You can bet your bottom dollar that Lippo offered the 2 agents extra bonus commission on top of the standard 1-2%. That is why they went out and got straw buyers and paid them $100K to do the application and buy the units. I believe the original plan was to rent out the units to high end executives and use the rental income to debt service the UOB mortgage. But the high end rental market was doing poorly by 2010-2011. Some of my friends had difficulty renting their condos for $20K a month or more. Used to be no problem. So perhaps, they could not get tenants or could not get the rental rate they needed and hence ended up defaulting.

when the bank sees 38 buyers coming in to buy $6 million condos, they see them not as housing loan clients but more as wealth management clients. They might have bend over backwards to approve the loans (even though they may not outwardly debt service) in the hopes that they will win future wealth management business (much more profitable then housing loans) from these clients. So, its the bank's greed. I just hope they were not stupid enough to ignore the valuation report. If the valuation report supports the high price, UOB should sue them too. Yet, I see no mention the valuators were brought to court.

By the way, I suspect that the $181 million amount is actually realised losses. I believe that UOB has already foreclosed and resold the units that defaulted and ended with a shortfall of $181 million, and hence is now suing Lippo. I think they need to sue the lawyers for Lippo as well as their own valuators too.
 

CoffeeAhSoh

Alfrescian
Loyal
All the players are already accounted for. The greed of UOB to do the loans and the greed of Lippo to sell the properties,

as well as the greed of the agents and lawyers are all there to see.

From my research ... . I think they need to sue the lawyers for Lippo as well as their own valuators too.





Sir , thank you for Update ...


Sir , you forgot to mentioned how much the Govt pocketed from the Land Sale $$$ and its Charges S$$$ ...
 

CoffeeAhSoh

Alfrescian
Loyal
Published on Jan 07, 2015

UOB's $181m suit over 'inflated housing loans'


ELENA CHONG



UNITED Overseas Bank (UOB) has launched a $181 million suit against a subsidiary of Indonesian giant Lippo Group and seven individuals,

claiming they conspired to get inflated housing loans.

The loans were for the purchase of 38 condominiums at the high-end Marina Collection in Sentosa - which was developed by Lippo Marina Collection

(LMC). Launched for sale in 2007, each condo at the 124-unit development costs an average of $6 million.

But out of the 38 units financed by UOB, 37 have defaulted.


In addition, UOB alleges that many of the buyers were fronts and did not have the financial means to service the housing loans.

Instead, the real buyers were five people who had links with the two property agents involved in the alleged scam - ERA housing agent Goh Buck Lim and freelance housing agent Aurellia Adrianus Ho.


The developer also said it only dealt with the buyers through Mr Goh. It was the agent who asked if LMC could give a discount in the form

of furniture rebates.






From my internet searches Goh Buck Lim and freelance housing agent Aurellia Adrianus Ho

are no longer on the CEA Registered .

AG could have finished their Investigation .

Good Luck to Lippo . Goh and Ho may end up as prosecution witnesses
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
AG could have finished their Investigation .

Good Luck to Lippo . Goh and Ho may end up as prosecution witnesses[/B]

This is the AG's worse night mare. Both groups are politically connected. Maybe a back channel deal will be worked out and the lawsuit dropped by UOB. Lippo should just offer UOB $50 million to settle. They already made the money from these units. Its not a foregone conclusion that UOB can win this lawsuit.
 

Narong Wongwan

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
All the players are already accounted for. The greed of UOB to do the loans and the greed of Lippo to sell the properties, as well as the greed of the agents and lawyers are all there to see.

From my research, the units were first offered for sale as new units and sold in 2007 at between $2500 and $2600 a sq. ft. By mid 2014, the price had already dropped to around $1400-$1500 per sq ft. a huge drop, in fact some units almost dropped 50% in price. But the common knowledge among my real estate agent friends is that the initial offer price in 2007 was the peak of the pricing for these units. I personally never bought in Sentosa, as I don't like 99 year leasehold. After that, it was pretty much a down trend in the price per sq ft as evidenced by resale pricing. As mentioned, the cooling measures of 2009 and the increase stamp duties of 2011 made the resale price lower then the original sale price. When UOB was approached to finance these units in 2011, anyone of their loan officers should have known that the prices that these units sold for (close to the original launch price of $2500 per sq ft) is simply not the market price now. Even a loan officer with cursory knowledge of the Sentosa developments would have known that the prices took a hit. Lets be clear on one thing. These loan officers who do $6million properties loans are not the branch guys that do the $400K HDB flat loans. They are supposed to be much more senior. And for this amount, they might even have had to go to a credit committee at the bank, because its beyond their approval limit. In any case, when the valuations came in supporting this high price, another set of alarm bells should have gone off at UOB. i.e. why are these particular 38 units worth $2500 per sq ft when all around it and in the same building, you can get resales units for $2000 per sq ft or less. If they are facing the sea, maybe. But those units are usually the ones that sell first.

You can bet your bottom dollar that Lippo offered the 2 agents extra bonus commission on top of the standard 1-2%. That is why they went out and got straw buyers and paid them $100K to do the application and buy the units. I believe the original plan was to rent out the units to high end executives and use the rental income to debt service the UOB mortgage. But the high end rental market was doing poorly by 2010-2011. Some of my friends had difficulty renting their condos for $20K a month or more. Used to be no problem. So perhaps, they could not get tenants or could not get the rental rate they needed and hence ended up defaulting.

when the bank sees 38 buyers coming in to buy $6 million condos, they see them not as housing loan clients but more as wealth management clients. They might have bend over backwards to approve the loans (even though they may not outwardly debt service) in the hopes that they will win future wealth management business (much more profitable then housing loans) from these clients. So, its the bank's greed. I just hope they were not stupid enough to ignore the valuation report. If the valuation report supports the high price, UOB should sue them too. Yet, I see no mention the valuators were brought to court.

By the way, I suspect that the $181 million amount is actually realised losses. I believe that UOB has already foreclosed and resold the units that defaulted and ended with a shortfall of $181 million, and hence is now suing Lippo. I think they need to sue the lawyers for Lippo as well as their own valuators too.

Good post.
It's always greed that gets people conned.
Though I dun think the amount (181 million) is the realized loss.
37 units x $6 million....I think 181 is about right.
 

Narong Wongwan

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
This is the AG's worse night mare. Both groups are politically connected. Maybe a back channel deal will be worked out and the lawsuit dropped by UOB. Lippo should just offer UOB $50 million to settle. They already made the money from these units. Its not a foregone conclusion that UOB can win this lawsuit.


Riady is not half as connected as lapdog Wee.
Also why got people say riady is more loaded than old man wee?
Forbes say Wee's net worth is much higher
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
End of court case, lawyers from both sides will laugh all the way to their banks. They will be winners. CAD have the resources to probe into this case. Quite certain conspiracy was involved.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Ok, Update.

From what I understand, this $181 million lawsuit was for the actual loan amount that UOB gave for these 38 units. So, its not losses that resulted from the liquidation of these units. These units, as far as I know have not been auctioned off and are still held by the bank. The $181 million was the NPL (Non performing Loans) amount for the units. This is the part that I don't get. How can UOB sue for the entirety of the loan amount and still have title to the units? If they win in totality, they will receive a judgement awarding them $181 million from Lippo but they still get to keep the 37 defaulted units? Seems to me like they are having their cake and eating it.

These units are probably worth around $3.5-$4 million now, far from their original $6 million price. But if UOB retains ownership of each unit plus receives another $4.9 million judgement for each unit ($181 million divide by 37), they will end up with almost $9 million received for each unit and a nice profit for them. The lawyers should have just negotiated with Lippo to buy the units back for $181 million. that way, UOB does not write off any bad loans. Lippo saves it reputation and has another chance to market the units.

These condos when they were brought to UOB for finance, received a 75% LTV. Based on the average mortgage amount of $4.9 million ($181 million divide by 37 units) each condo had a S & P price of around $6.5 million. That's crazy because this price is essentially the launch price of 2007, and that market had gone down substantially by 2011 when UOB did these loans. UOB credit officers are really sleeping on the job or were pressured to approve these loans. Ditto for their property valuators.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
As mentioned in the article below, what Lippo has been doing is common practice among developers. UOB had no problem with it when the property market was rising and the properties were debt serviced. Of course, when the opposite happens, they suddenly have a big problem with these buyer incentive programs. Fucking banks.


Nowhere to hide: How UOB’s lawsuit against Lippo will change the property market landscape

Incentive schemes won’t work anymore.

Luring reluctant property buyers with juicy incentives may have worked in the past, but UOB’s landmark lawsuit against Lippo Group is bound to irrevocably alter the property market landscape.

According to Nomura, it will not be a surprise if banks decide to move against other developers especially if more home owners were to default on their mortgages as a result of higher interest rates.

Like Lippo, many developers have adopted incentive schemes such as furniture rebates, rental guarantees and stamp duty absorption over the past few years. Such incentives make no difference to profit margins but it help maintain a façade that headline prices are still holding up.

“However, with the Marina Collection case now brought to court and the URA’s latest move to publish net prices from this year, it seems to us it is increasingly difficult (and meaningless) for developers to hide behind such incentive schemes. We reiterate our call for developers to be more proactive in lowering headline prices in 2015F, which should in turn 1) stimulate higher sales volumes, especially for projects with an average price point of SGD2mn/unit and lower, and 2) prepare the ground for the government to ease policy towards the end of 2015F,” stated Nomura
 

Papsmearer

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Generous Asset
Riady is not half as connected as lapdog Wee.
Also why got people say riady is more loaded than old man wee?
Forbes say Wee's net worth is much higher

I would take Forbes with a grain of salt. You don't find Lee Kuan yew and Family on Forbes' list, do you? And yet, they are for sure billionaires and worth more than Wee Cho Yaw and Family. Ditto for the kwa family. Wee's main holding is UOB, which by virtue of it being a publicly listed company, has to reveal its major shareholders and their holdings. Forbes uses public records with some educated guesses to determine their list or wealthiest men. Many of the Riady holdings are not public companies, and no one except them know exactly how much is in there. But they are spread out in Indonesia, Singapore, and HKG. The last thing they want is for forbes or anyone else to get an accurate estimate of their net worth. Concealment is their goal whereas wee has no choice because of regulatory requirements. I would say the Riadys are under reported by Forbes for sure. They are worth more then the $2billion plus Forbes says they have.
 

CoffeeAhSoh

Alfrescian
Loyal
trap_house_13.jpg



Nowhere to hide: How UOB’s lawsuit against Lippo will change the property market landscape

Incentive schemes won’t work anymore.

Luring reluctant property buyers with juicy incentives may have worked in the past, but UOB’s landmark lawsuit against Lippo Group is bound to irrevocably alter the property market landscape.

According to Nomura, it will not be a surprise if banks decide to move against other developers especially if more home owners were to default on their mortgages as a result of higher interest rates.

Like Lippo, many developers have adopted incentive schemes such as furniture rebates, rental guarantees and stamp duty absorption over the past few years. Such incentives make no difference to profit margins but it help maintain a façade that headline prices are still holding up.

“However, with the Marina Collection case now brought to court and the URA’s latest move to publish net prices from this year, it seems to us it is increasingly difficult (and meaningless) for developers to hide behind such incentive schemes. We reiterate our call for developers to be more proactive in lowering headline prices in 2015F, which should in turn 1) stimulate higher sales volumes, especially for projects with an average price point of SGD2mn/unit and lower, and 2) prepare the ground for the government to ease policy towards the end of 2015F,” stated Nomura.



http://sbr.com.sg/residential-prope...t-against-lippo-will-change-property-market-l
 

CoffeeAhSoh

Alfrescian
Loyal
I read this twice. Did I read it right? As long as you have $200k in a UOB account, you can apply for a loan in excess of up to $6mil ?



http://forums.fuckwarezone.com.sg/e...rate-rises-sharply-second-day-4931185-10.html
 

Narong Wongwan

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I read this twice. Did I read it right? As long as you have $200k in a UOB account, you can apply for a loan in excess of up to $6mil ?



http://forums.fuckwarezone.com.sg/e...rate-rises-sharply-second-day-4931185-10.html

Probably with forged incone documents.
Dun forget the phantom buyers all got a $100k 'commission' each.
 

JHolmesJr

Alfrescian
Loyal
If just 5 parties apply to buy 38 super high-end apartments through 2 property agents, does it take a genius to figure out that it's a transaction that needs to be closely appraised before vetting?
 
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