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The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Part II

borom

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

In OCS their motto was to to lead, excel and overcome- where did it mention duty, honour, responsibility and integrity?

The have lead by throwing extra grenades to make the soldiers excel and overcome the situation.

8 people died in SGH hepatitis scandal-nobody charged, here ONLY ONE PERSON DIED, so ????
Beside 70% also kept quiet.
 
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Leckmichamarsch

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

when Dr Ng spoke abt pay lost....... he was toking abt future pay which is a iffy............might as well compare to if they became useless PAP MPs
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

SAF & SAF Captain Heroes Vs Canadian Forces Officer - A Short Study Into Cowardice, Gutlessness & Dishonourable Conduct

SAF & SAF Captain Heroes

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/high-court-strikes-out-lawsuit-against-saf-2-officers-over-smoke-grenade"

"The family of Private Dominique Sarron Lee had also sued his platoon commander as well as the chief safety officer of the exercise, alleging negligence on their part.

"However, all three defendants [SAF, Captain Najib Hanuk Muhamad Jalal & Captain Chia Thye Siong] applied to strike out the claim on the grounds that there is no reasonable cause of action and that the suit is frivolous, vexatious and an abuse of the court process.

The defendants relied on a provision in the Government Proceedings Act, arguing that they are indemnified from being sued for negligence for deaths and injuries if the acts are certified to be attributable to service."


Vs

Canadian Forces Officer


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-soldier-pleads-guilty-in-afghan-friendly-fire-1.1158245

A decorated Canadian Forces officer has been hailed by a military prosecutor for his "integrity and honour" even as he pleaded guilty to negligent performance of duty.

Maj. Christopher Lunney, 42, had to pause to compose himself several times as he told a court martial Wednesday of his shock and remorse over the friendly-fire incident in Afghanistan that took the life of Cpl. Josh Baker and wounded four others.

"I can offer no words of regret or apology that will address their loss," Lunney said of the Baker family...

Lunney's negligence was in failing to ensure that Capt. Darryl Watts was properly qualified, something the major had assumed because of Watts' rank at the time...

"What transpired that day in Afghanistan was an avoidable incident," Lunney's civilian lawyer, Phillip Millar, told the court martial, adding there were "triable issues" that could have been mounted in his client's defence.

Instead, Lunney had instructed his lawyer that "the buck stops with me."




 
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PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

They deserve their promotions because they put in a lot of effort to make training as realistic as possible.

A professional soldier in a professional army in an actual operation takes full and unconditional responsibility for his negligence and got demoted.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/canadian-soldier-pleads-guilty-in-afghan-friendly-fire-1.1158245

Cmdr. Peter Lemont, the presiding judge, accepted a joint sentencing agreement that will see Lunney demoted to captain and receive a severe reprimand.


Two career soldiers in a half-baked army overseen by a dishonest and myopic Minister, do everything possible to cowardly and dishonourably evade responsibility for their negligence during peace time training. This results in one getting punished by being promoted and being rewarded with a pay rise.

The reputation, or whatever there is left of the Officer Corp of the SAF, has been ruined and tainted by these two cowardly cunts and this thoroughly and hopelessly fucked up Minister of Defence. All three do not know the meaning of honour and what honourable conduct entails. As an ex-Officer in the SAF, I am deeply ashamed of their and this Minister's gutless and dishonourable conduct. The Officer Corp of the SAF will now be looked upon, very deservedly, with disrespect and contempt by the public. I am chucking my old epaulettes, which sits in my display cabinet, into the bin.
 
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Charlie99

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Are your epaulettes with 2 or 3 pips.
I will keep mine for memory.
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Are your epaulettes with 2 or 3 pips.
I will keep mine for memory.

It's just a little over more than what you have. I have proudly kept all my epaulettes for the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 4 in my display cabinet for decades but it doesn't matter anymore because I have thrown all of them into the bin.

I am from the earlier batch where "Honour" was the core belief system of the SAF Officer Corp. As such, I cannot but feel deeply ashamed of the dishonourable conduct of Ng Eng Hen, these two so called "Officers" and this so called "General" (Chan). All have brought shame, disrepute and dishonour upon the entire, past and present, SAF Officer Corp.
 

Charlie99

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

It's just a little over more than what you have. I have proudly kept all my epaulettes for the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 4 in my display cabinet for decades but it doesn't matter anymore because I have thrown all of them into the bin.

I am from the earlier batch where "Honour" was the core belief system of the SAF Officer Corp. As such, I cannot but feel deeply ashamed of the dishonourable conduct of Ng Eng Hen, these two so called "Officers" and this so called "General" (Chan). All have brought shame, disrepute and dishonour upon the entire, past and present, SAF Officer Corp.

Those were the days, in the corridor of of our rooms (2 cadets to a room), when we have to shout Duty Honour Country while doing push ups.
 

jw5

Moderator
Moderator
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

when Dr Ng spoke abt pay lost....... he was toking abt future pay which is a iffy............might as well compare to if they became useless PAP MPs

Perhaps he was toking about the pay he lost which made him a good bargain. :biggrin:
 

Charlie99

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

not 'crabs?' mine is sri lankan.

Almost 3 pips, as I have completed SATO (best candidate, and there were 4 Captains in the same course as me),
but unsure whether or not as a reservist officer, I have to complete and pass the promotion exams which the regular officers have to do,
in the old days.
But since I left within a few months of completing SATO, my Brigade Commander was upset.

One of my classmates, extended his reservist, completed SCSC, and was promoted to one crab, and became a CO of a reservist battalion.
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Those were the days, in the corridor of of our rooms (2 cadets to a room), when we have to shout Duty Honour Country while doing push ups.

It's now "To Lead, To Overcome, To Excel". And I can see how these 4 clowns have "Led, Overcome and Excelled" in disclaiming liability, evading responsibility and in covering their arseholes.
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Almost 3 pips, as I have completed SATO (best candidate, and there were 4 Captains in the same course as me),
but unsure whether or not as a reservist officer, I have to complete and pass the promotion exams which the regular officers have to do,
in the old days.
But since I left within a few months of completing SATO, my Brigade Commander was upset.

One of my classmates, extended his reservist, completed SCSC, and was promoted to one crab, and became a CO of a reservist battalion.

great! i was only a GD man in the army. wanted to be a commando but kena rejected.
 

Charlie99

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

It's now "To Lead, To Overcome, To Excel". And I can see how these 4 clowns have "Led, Overcome and Excelled" in disclaiming liability, evading responsibility and in covering their arseholes.

I prefer the Duty, Honour, Country (rather than "To Lead, To Overcome, To Excel".
as well as Who Dares, Wins (rather than For Honour and Glory).

In my days, it was "To Serve, To Strive but not to Yield" at Outward Bound School (and I was only 17).
Not sure what it is now.
 

yahoo55

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Just discovered that there is a Dominique Lee facebook page by his family, and his family posted this a few days ago ...

Apparently the SAF was informed and knew that he has asthma when he enlisted, hence he had to wear a blue tag which he did during that training exercise, but he was not exempted from the smoke grenade exercise by his officers even though he has asthma.

During the coroner’s inquiry of their son's death, MINDEF refused to provide the parents important information on the cause of death such as the forensic pathologist reports and MINDEF Respiratory Advisory Board’s reports, and also refused to answer questions from the parents.

MINDEF is indeed very secretive during the CI, no wonder the dead NSF's parents sued after the CI to try and get from information from them.


https://www.facebook.com/DomSarronLe...19314584779805

March 25 2016

We refer to MINDEF’s letter to The Straits Times Forum (NSF’s death and family’s bid to sue: MINDEF replies) on 18 March 2016. MINDEF in this latest reply, continues to evade answering the real questions the family has been asking these past years.

Yes, the coroner’s inquiry (CI) in August 2013 was a seemingly transparent process, taking the form of an open hearing fully accessible to the public and media. Yes, we, the family of Dominique, and our legal counsel were also present, and given opportunities to address questions relating to Dominique’s death. And yes, we did post our questions at the CI; however, most of the questions were not answered.

According to the State Court website, the role of the CI is to determine findings relating to factual matters such as
• The identity of the deceased
• Where and when the deceased died; and
• How the deceased died, namely, the circumstances connected with the death and the cause of death.
The website also stated that “[t]he coroner will not frame a finding in such a way as to determine any question of criminal, civil or disciplinary liability on the part of any person or persons. As such, his findings will be factual and neutral”. Hence, while we do not dispute with the factual findings of the CI, we do disagree with the coroner determining that Dominique’s allergic reaction was “unlikely to have been predicted”, as this framing is subjective and unsubstantiated.

Just as MINDEF has reiterated, the coroner had indeed found that Dominique had died from “acute allergic reaction to zinc chloride due to inhalation of zinc chloride fumes”. However, MINDEF has conveniently not reminded the public that the CI had also found that SAF had used excessive smoke grenades in the exercise that resulted in Dominique’s untimely death, and that none of those involved in the exercise on 17 April 2012 had any knowledge or training on the significance of the blue tag that Dominique was required to wear (and was wearing at the time of the incident) at all times. In addition, the CI had also revealed that the combat medic did not have adequate equipment to handle the dire situation at the time of the incident.

We have never disagreed with the factual findings of the CI. In fact, it is precisely these factual findings that further convinced us that MINDEF/SAF had indeed been negligent in their duty to ensure the health and safety of every National Service man and hence, must be held accountable for Dominique’s death.

We had requested at the CI that the forensic pathologist and MINDEF Respiratory Advisory Board’s reports to be made public. However, this request was refused. We had also requested the presence of the forensic pathologist and any of the five senior respiratory medicine specialist from MINDEF’s Respiratory Advisory Board at the CI, to provide answers to some of our questions, but this request was also denied. Needless to say, many of the questions we asked during the CI also received no answers.

It is startling that MINDEF/SAF, and now the AGC, are espousing the defence on the very subjective and unsubstantiated claim made by the CI that the allergic reaction Dominique suffered was “unlikely to have been predicted”. The TSR must have been designed for a reason, and it must have been implemented for a reason. If the TSR can be breached with no consequence, then it makes a mockery of its existence. In the case of Dominique, it was precisely the breach of the TSR that resulted in his death.

To rule that the breach is not the direct cause of Dominique’s death is a judgment that defies logic. Yet we are unsurprised that the AGC had decided against prosecuting anyone based on only this one non-factual finding amidst other pertinent factual ones surfaced during the CI, because the AGC is the counsel for MINDEF in this case and hence, its decision must and will favour MINDEF’s defence. The family disagrees that this is what one would consider an “independent and impartial” judgment, or a fair conclusion to the entire process.

It is a known fact that all asthmatic NSFs, including Dominique, are exempted from Chemical Defence Training where they are subjected to high concentration of zinc chloride. This fact was verified by the Platoon Commander at the CI. This exemption suggests that all decision makers in MINDEF/SAF, including both officers in this incident, knew or at least suspected that the concentration rather than the mere presence of zinc chloride would pose a danger to asthmatic NSFs. How then, can they declare unashamedly that the allergic reaction was “unlikely to have been predicted”?


There is enough medical information online, available to anyone who cares to search, about the dangers of high concentrations of zinc chloride, especially to asthmatics. Did MINDEF/SAF not have access to such easily available information when they approved the use of smoke grenades that contain zinc chloride in training? Did they not consult experts on the effects of these smoke grenades on individuals when drafting the TSR, which every training officer must to comply with? To claim that such allergic reaction as the one Dominique suffered was unforeseen and “unlikely to have been predicted” strongly suggests that MINDEF/SAF had not done their homework before exposing all NSF to the dangers of the smoke grenades all these years.

If MINDEF/SAF and the AGC are confident of their findings and processes, then the MINDEF/SAF should not invoke S14 of the Government Proceeding Act (S14 GPA), but should welcome the Court to independently and impartially study all the evidence available, including those offered by the forensic pathologist and MINDEF’s Respiratory Advisory Board, to arrive at a fair conclusion. It is only when MINDEF/SAF allows itself to be questioned in the open Court, and readily makes available all the evidence of the case, that the public can continue to have the highest confidence in the SAF.
 
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winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Just discovered that there is a Dominique Lee facebook page by his family, and his family posted this a few days ago ...

Apparently the SAF was informed and knew that he has asthma when he enlisted, hence he had to wear a blue tag which he did during that training exercise, but he was not exempted from the smoke grenade exercise by his officers even though he has asthma.

During the coroner’s inquiry of their son's death, MINDEF refused to provide the parents important information on the cause of death such as the forensic pathologist reports and MINDEF Respiratory Advisory Board’s reports, and also refused to answer questions from the parents.

MINDEF is indeed very secretive during the CI, no wonder the dead NSF's parents sued after the CI to try and get from information from them.


https://www.facebook.com/DomSarronLe...19314584779805

MINDEF doesn't know how to get rid of the parents. The persistent questionings is giving them headaches. Millionaire scholars working are pushing the underlings to solve this problem Every week, a new statement is issued, the fire burns stronger.

Minister also don't know what to say.

Remember, if MINDEF cannot legally commit to the safety of soldiers, our soldiers should boycott MINDEF. Why are you committing to fight for sinkapore when the country treats you like dirt?

Secondly, it is totally bs when the minister claims that the law protecting MINDEF from civil suit is necessary to protect the soldiers. That law protects the top echelon, not soldiers. The top people can screw up as much as they want and they are protected from the consequences.

See how Taiwan does it, compare to sinkapore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hung_Chung-chiu

Not only the officers should be charged but a few generals in MINDEF should have been charged. The Minister should also resign.
 
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Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Remember, if MINDEF cannot legally commit to the safety of soldiers, our soldiers should boycott MINDEF.


Why don't you take a deep breath and ponder just how idiotic the phrase "safety of soldiers" sounds.

The duty of a soldier is to put himself in harm's way to defend the country. It's a dangerous job and deaths are common.

If our soldiers are going to be kept safe, who the hell is going to defend the women and children of Singapore.
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Why don't you take a deep breath and ponder just how idiotic the phrase "safety of soldiers" sounds.

The duty of a soldier is to put himself in harm's way to defend the country. It's a dangerous job and deaths are common.

If our soldiers are going to be kept safe, who the hell is going to defend the women and children of Singapore.

The duty of a soldier is not to put himself in harm's way to defend the country. It's to put the enemies in "harm's way" in the defence of his country.

The duty of a soldier is not to be killed in the defence of his country. It's to kill the enemies in the defence of his country.

Both very cliched statements but nevertheless, still true.

You won't even be able to make it to the battlefield to do this "harming" and "killing" of your country's enemies if you yourself are harmed or killed by your own Officers through their gross irresponsibility, sheer idiocy and unacceptable negligence.
 

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

The duty of a soldier is not to put himself in harm's way to defend the country. It's to put the enemies in "harm's way" in the defence of his country.

The duty of a soldier is not to be killed in the defence of his country. It's to kill the enemies in the defence of his country.

Both very cliched statements but nevertheless, still true.

You won't even be able to make it to the battlefield to do this "harming" and "killing" of your country's enemies if you yourself are harmed or killed by your own Officers through their gross irresponsibility, sheer idiocy and unacceptable negligence.

Your warped logic does nothing but make you look really stupid.

You know as well as I do that in the battlefield both sides run the real risk of being killed. Wars are very harmful to both the victor and the defeated when it comes to lives lost.

However armies can tilt the odds in their favor if they are better trained than the enemy and in order for this to happen training has to be tough, realistic and at times downright dangerous.

It is therefore important to weed out soldiers who succumb to excess smoke before they are put on the battlefield where the lives of their platoon mates depends upon everyone pulling their weight.

I went through NS and there were numerous times when I thought I was going to die. One such incident was during a CWO exercise when I almost drowned not realising just how little buoyancy I had when weighed down with SBO and additional gear. I learned my lesson pretty quickly and became a better soldier for the experience.

I did not blame the PAP for my near mishap and neither would my parents have blamed anyone had I drowned. They were proud to contribute a son to the security of the country and would have considered my death as an honor and a worthwhile sacrifice.
 

enterprise2

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

MINDEF doesn't know to get rid of the parents. The persistent questionings is giving them headaches. Millionaire scholars working are pushing the underlings to solve this problem Every week, a new statement is issued, the fire burns stronger.

Minister also don't know what to say.

Remember, if MINDEF cannot legally commit to the safety of soldiers, our soldiers should boycott MINDEF. Why are you committing to fight for sinkapore when the country treats you like dirt?

Secondly, it is totally bs when the minister claims that the law protecting MINDEF from civil suit is necessary to protect the soldiers. That law protects the top echelon, not soldiers. The top people can screw up as much as they want and they are protected from the consequences.

See how Taiwan does it, compare to sinkapore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Hung_Chung-chiu

Not only the officers should be charged but a few generals in MINDEF should have been charged. The Minister should also resign.

Nothing is either black or white, it's shades of grey. Everything has risks and that's why we all gotta do Risks Assessment. The rule was broken in this case but the consequences was downplayed which is not right. They fixed it but gave a light tap to the guilty officers and gave peanuts to the deceased family. In my mind they did right by fixing the problem so that it won't happen again as training needs to go on. But they did wrong by not giving proper punishment to the officers and not compensating fairly to the family. This is what is wrong with the system today. Mindef prob pull out all the stops and put in very stringent measures to prevent reoccurrence. That's shows the priority they placed on this lapse. But they didn't show this when it comes to punishment and compensation!
 

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Nothing is either black or white, it's shades of grey. Everything has risks and that's why we all gotta do Risks Assessment. The rule was broken in this case but the consequences was downplayed which is not right. They fixed it but gave a light tap to the guilty officers and gave peanuts to the deceased family. In my mind they did right by fixing the problem so that it won't happen again as training needs to go on. But they did wrong by not giving proper punishment to the officers and not compensating fairly to the family. This is what is wrong with the system today. Mindef prob pull out all the stops and put in very stringent measures to prevent reoccurrence. That's shows the priority they placed on this lapse. But they didn't show this when it comes to punishment and compensation!

I hope that MINDEF realises just how ridiculous it is to limit the amount of smoke from smoke grenades. They should amend the TSR to allow "sufficient smoke to provide cover and concealment".

The whole purpose of smoke is to prevent the enemy from taking aim at our troops. Smoke should be as thick as possible and if there happen to be a few soldiers who can't take the heat then it is better that they be weeded out during times of peace. If they die from smoke inhalation during a real battle they could put the lives of their platoon mates in real danger.

The last thing we need during battle is an asthmatic, hyper allergic soldier being a burden for the rest of us.
 
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