The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Part II

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Part I of IV

Court Martials Vs Summary Trials, Military Courts Vs A Commander's Personal Office

Whilst MINDEF is usually quick to correct erroneous reports in the media, this time around, they are happy for the media like the 147th and Today to continue with their ongoing errors.

The media's error, both in print and online, is in stating that these two were "court martialled" in a "military court". This conveys to the public that this case has been handled with a high level of no nonsense seriousness. This is absolutely and blatantly false. MINDEF's, Ng Eng Hen's and BG Chan's continued self-serving refusal to correct this glaring error point to their deceit and dishonesty.

In truth and in reality, MINDEF has contemptuously treated the soldier's death as nothing more than a minor incident. The evidence of this is in the manner the two were "prosecuted" in a "Summary Trial" which is reserved for minor disciplinary offences. This is the reason why the punishments meted out to these two were totally disproportionate to the very serious outcome of death caused by their unacceptable negligence.

MINDEF, Ng Eng Hen and BG Chan were reluctant to reveal what the punishments were until it appeared online through simple deductions and reasonings. But they are still too frighten to disclose to the public how much exactly these two Officers were fined. The reason is because the public will be shocked by how small the fines are in contrast to the gravity of their offence. From the statements MINDEF, Ng Eng Hen and BG Chan have made, it is evident that these two were not even meted out with the maximum $3,000 fine allowable in a Summary Trial for Officers holding the rank of Captain or Major. The inevitable questions which will then arise which the public will invariably ask is whether there was corruption involved, interference to cover up for a scholar, white horse, relatives, etc.

Remember, until today, the OC who is the Supervising Officer, has yet to be named nor was he ever charged or punished under the SAF's culture of "Command Responsibility" as explained by Teo Chee Hean.

Part II to continue...​

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Part II of IV

This is the SAF's own description of a Summary Trial and General Court Martial. It's taken from "Military justice system treats all fairly and equally"


Summary Trial

The offences that can be dealt with by summary trial are essentially military offences, such as absence without leave (AWOL), non-compliance with lawful orders or insubordination.

Depending on the rank of the serviceman in question, and the type of the disciplinary body hearing the case, the possible sentences that may be imposed can vary, and these can include fines or detention.

The summary trial is carried out in accordance with relevant SAF regulations, and the records of the summary trial are sent to the office of the Director, Legal Services of the SAF.


General Court Martial

The General Court Martial exists as a separate forum from that of the summary trial. Unlike the summary trial, the GCM can deal with a wider range of offences, and can impose a wider range of punishments including imprisonment and discharge, on top of sentences like detention and fines. The GCM is also a more public and open forum, and its proceedings are conducted using similar legal rules and procedures as those used in a civil criminal court.

Generally, only serious offences investigated by the Military Police Command, and which are referred to the office of the Director of Legal Services, will result in the accused serviceman being charged in a GCM. In such a case, a military prosecutor will draw up a formal charge sheet and present it before the GCM.

General Courts Martial can be further sub-divided into two categories, namely the Panel Courts Martial - consisting of a President and usually two other members, and Judge Courts Martial - consisting of a single President only.

Currently, the practice is for military offences to be heard by Panel Courts Martial, while civil offences like misuse of drugs and penal code offences may be dealt with by a Judge Court Martial.

The current policy is also for an NSman, who is or was a District Judge in the Subordinate Courts, to preside in a GCM. There are currently 10 NSmen who have been appointed by the Armed Forces Council to perform duty as President of a court martial. They are rostered by the Registrar of the Subordinate Military Court to hear cases during their in-camp training. In the case of a Panel Court Martial, the other two members are rostered from among some 155 military officers appointed by the Chief of Defence Force.​

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Part III of IV

The photos of the Subordinate Military Court in which General Court Martials are publicly held and open to the public will give the public some idea of the gravity with which offences are treated when they are prosecuted as a General Court Martial in the SMC as opposed to a Summary Trial held in privacy and in the personal office of the relevant Commander. In this case, these two would have been charged in the privacy of the personal office of their Brigade Commander, their "Superior Commander".

Due to the forum limitation, only two pics are posted here and the other two in Part IV of IV. Please click on links to go to the source if the pics do not load up.

Pic 1

Pic 2

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Part IV of IV

Pic 3

Pic 4

 

[Leongsam]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Part III of IV

The photos of the Subordinate Military Court in which General Court Martials are publicly held and open to the public will give the public some idea of the gravity with which offences are treated when they are prosecuted as a General Court Martial in the SMC as opposed to a Summary Trial held in privacy and in the personal office of the relevant Commander. In this case, these two would have been charged in the privacy of the personal office of their Brigade Commander, their "Superior Commander".

Due to the forum limitation, only two pics are posted here and the other two in Part IV of IV. Please click on links to go to the source if the pics do not load up.

Pic 1

Pic 2

There are no "forum limitations" that prevent the posting of more than 2 images.

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

There are no "forum limitations" that prevent the posting of more than 2 images.

Not sure why the message popped up though. Could be my browser.

 

[eatshitndie]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Not sure why the message popped up though. Could be my browser.

perhaps images are too big. i typically downsize images before attaching them. big images do fail on many occasions, and i had to resize them.

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Your warped logic does nothing but make you look really stupid.

You know as well as I do that in the battlefield both sides run the real risk of being killed. Wars are very harmful to both the victor and the defeated when it comes to lives lost.

However armies can tilt the odds in their favor if they are better trained than the enemy and in order for this to happen training has to be tough, realistic and at times downright dangerous.

It is therefore important to weed out soldiers who succumb to excess smoke before they are put on the battlefield where the lives of their platoon mates depends upon everyone pulling their weight.

I went through NS and there were numerous times when I thought I was going to die. One such incident was during a CWO exercise when I almost drowned not realising just how little buoyancy I had when weighed down with SBO and additional gear. I learned my lesson pretty quickly and became a better soldier for the experience.

I did not blame the PAP for my near mishap and neither would my parents have blamed anyone had I drowned. They were proud to contribute a son to the security of the country and would have considered my death as an honor and a worthwhile sacrifice.

It's not warped. It's logical and in fact, forms the basic understanding with which training is conducted, i.e. that you want to keep your soldiers alive for the real thing and not have them die during training. Once again, tough training does not equate to unsafe training where there must be deaths to prove the toughness and reality of the training. This is something that you really need to get into your head.

You have cited several examples of what you went through, some pathetic little runs, throwing a lot of smoke grenades and now some pathetic CWO in which you life jacket wasn't sufficiently inflated.

As I have already told you, Special Forces around the world train a whole lot more than what you have gone trough. Common to all though is that their training are governed by training safety regulations so that the risk of them dying during training is minimised.

The fantasy world which you live in where everyone disregard training safety and turn into Rambos hurling numerous smoke grenades for perfect concealment, firing live rounds instead of blanks and tossing real grenades instead of dummy ones, does not exist. It does not exist in the SAF nor does it exist in other Armed Forces.

 

[Leongsam]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

It's not warped. It's logical and in fact, forms the basic understanding with which training is conducted, i.e. that you want to keep your soldiers alive for the real thing and not have them die during training. Once again, tough training does not equate to unsafe training where there must be deaths to prove the toughness and reality of the training. This is something that you really need to get into your head.

You have cited several examples of what you went through, some pathetic little runs, throwing a lot of smoke grenades and now some pathetic CWO in which you life jacket wasn't sufficiently inflated.

As I have already told you, Special Forces around the world train a whole lot more than what you have gone trough. Common to all though is that their training are governed by training safety regulations so that the risk of them dying during training is minimised.

The fantasy world which you live in where everyone disregard training safety and turn into Rambos hurling numerous smoke grenades for perfect concealment, firing live rounds instead of blanks and tossing real grenades instead of dummy ones, does not exist. It does not exist in the SAF nor does it exist in other Armed Forces.

Nowhere did I say that there should be a total disregard for safety regulations. I certainly don't advocate that we use live rounds for every training exercise because the risk of dying from friendly fire is very real.

However when a defective soldier who is allergic to smoke dies just because the smoke was too thick for his delicate lungs, we should just treat it as an unfortunate accident which nobody could have foreseen and move on with our lives and this includes the parents.

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Nowhere did I say that there should be a total disregard for safety regulations. I certainly don't advocate that we use live rounds for every training exercise because the risk of dying from friendly fire is very real.

However when a defective soldier who is allergic to smoke dies just because the smoke was too thick for his delicate lungs, we should just treat it as an unfortunate accident which nobody could have foreseen and move on with our lives and this includes the parents.

So you agree and are happy that there should be training safety regulations but not that which covers the one you object to, i.e. use of smoke grenades in excess of what is permitted.

A Rambo+ could, using all the arguments that you have relied upon for using smoke grenades over the permitted limits, insists that training with live rounds is the way to go as it is the ultimate in realistic training and in preparing for real battle. How then to deal with delicate and fearful soldiers like you who are now suddenly worried about getting shot and killed by "friendly fire" if Rambo+ gets his way or insist on his way of conducting training?

 

[Leongsam]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

So you agree and are happy that there should be training safety regulations but not that which covers the one you object to, i.e. use of smoke grenades in excess of what is permitted.

A Rambo+ could, using all the arguments that you have relied upon for using smoke grenades over the permitted limits, insists that training with live rounds is the way to go as it is the ultimate in realistic training and in preparing for real battle. How then to deal with delicate and fearful soldiers like you who are now suddenly worried about getting shot and killed by "friendly fire" if Rambo+ gets his way or insist on his way of conducting training?

Now you're starting to be ridiculous. All I'm saying is that a certain number of deaths are inevitable when it comes to military training just as deaths are part and parcel of driving or flying or scuba diving.

We cannot create a risk free environment. There will always be a convergence of a set of circumstances that results in something going seriously wrong once in a while. As long as we learn from the experience, decide whether it warrants a change or that it is within acceptable risk, we should then close the issue instead of trying to find scapegoats and extract revenge.

The trainers made a minor error and have been given minor punishment. That's it.. case closed. Next please. The parents have my sympathy but this case definitely doesn't warrant compensation beyond what has already been awarded.

And I still think that there should be no limit to the amount of smoke grenades used. The TSR should simply state "sufficient quantities to provide concealment" and leave it to the judgement of the commanders to decide.

 

[enterprise2]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

So you agree and are happy that there should be training safety regulations but not that which covers the one you object to, i.e. use of smoke grenades in excess of what is permitted.

A Rambo+ could, using all the arguments that you have relied upon for using smoke grenades over the permitted limits, insists that training with live rounds is the way to go as it is the ultimate in realistic training and in preparing for real battle. How then to deal with delicate and fearful soldiers like you who are now suddenly worried about getting shot and killed by "friendly fire" if Rambo+ gets his way or insist on his way of conducting training?

Don't know why u bother with Leongsam! He'll argue with u on anything just for the sake of traffic. Stop unless u're like him or worse! U r his clone!

 

[steffychun]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

six smoke grenades---Talbin has sucked laser-guided bombs and missiles and still managed to kill Western soldiers.

Sinkies are pathetic.

 

[Leongsam]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Don't know why u bother with Leongsam! He'll argue with u on anything just for the sake of traffic. Stop unless u're like him or worse! U r his clone!

Arguing with me does nothing for the traffic. If arguments generated traffic then this forum would have more views than facebook.

What I am trying to do is bring some logic and common sense into the mix.

It would seem that the hatred of the PAP by the 30% clouds their brain cells and leads to extremely bizarre opinions that have no foundations whatsoever.

When a country starts thinking that it is perfectly acceptable to sue an army officer for creating realistic training scenarios for his men then something is seriously wrong with the mindset of the nation.

Thankfully only 30% are afflicted at the moment but I fear the day when the majority start thinking along the same lines.

Luckily I live in NZ where all such civil suits are disallowed by law. The state compensates accident victims and there is no personal liability.

 

[enterprise2]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Arguing with me does nothing for the traffic. If arguments generated traffic then this forum would have more views than facebook.

What I am trying to do is bring some logic and common sense into the mix.

It would seem that the hatred of the PAP by the 30% clouds their brain cells and leads to extremely bizarre opinions that have no foundations whatsoever.

When a country starts thinking that it is perfectly acceptable to sue an army officer for creating realistic training scenarios for his men then something is seriously wrong with the mindset of the nation.

Thankfully only 30% are afflicted at the moment but I fear the day when the majority start thinking along the same lines.

Luckily I live in NZ where all such civil suits are disallowed by law. The state compensates accident victims and there is no personal liability.

Ha ha! Unfortunately lots of us can see thro your arguements. It's ok, quite entertaining on a hot boring day!

 

[jw5]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Ha ha! Unfortunately lots of us can see thro your arguements. It's ok, quite entertaining on a hot boring day!

I always enjoy watching boss Leongsam putting in so much effort into his arguments. So much better than his one-liners.

 

[Papsmearer]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

I always enjoy watching boss Leongsam putting in so much effort into his arguments. So much better than his one-liners.

Sam is sweating from the effort to defend the inexcusable, more effort then even his fav pastime of sheep fucking.

 

[Leongsam]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

I always enjoy watching boss Leongsam putting in so much effort into his arguments. So much better than his one-liners.

Well said. I have added to your points.

 

[jw5]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Well said. I have added to your points.

Thanks Leongsam!

 

[Leongsam]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Sam is sweating from the effort to defend the inexcusable, more effort then even his fav pastime of sheep fucking.

Did your mother drop you on your head when you were a baby? Please advise.