The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Part II

[enterprise2]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

I agree there is definitely more to this than meets the eye. I have been searching for their names as scholars as well as names of the 3 SIR CO & OC of the soldier during this 2012 incident. It will help connect the dots. Unless there was a change of CO, the CO during this period was LTC Wilson Low, Commanding Officer, 3 SIR.

Under the SAF philosophy of "command responsibility", the OC and CO, especially the OC in his capacity as Officer Commanding and Supervising Officer of this FIBUA exercise, will both share the rap as well. They will very likely be removed from command as the line that is determined to have been crossed in the SAF is always one when a soldier dies under one's command.

These two officers, especially that Chia chap with his rapid promotion even after he was charged, could well have been a protected scholar and/or have benefited from being treated leniently due to the "flow on" effect. If they had been court martialled and sentenced to military detention, it simply means that the "flow on" effect up the hierarchy would be larger and the OC and CO would be implicated and punished as well; not necessarily charged but more than likely, be removed from their command.

If these two officers were very leniently dealt with as they were, than there is very little if not zero "flow on" effect up the command hierarchy. The OC and CO would be spared any punishment. So by choosing not to court martial these two, MINDEF could well be protecting the OC and CO who, in addition to that Chia guy, may well be scholars or white horses. In such a case, these two Captains would be the beneficiaries of such a protection.

That's the reason why Ms Teoh Ai Lin, Director Legal Services or whoever was the Director of Legal Services, MINDEF who was in charge during the period when this decision was taken needs to be investigated to rule out corruption, conflict of interest, political interference or interference of any kind being the reason/s why these two officers were not court martialled or charged under a more "relevant / serious" charge like Section 41 of the SAF Act.

How does this case compare with the recent commando drowning incident. Think in that case the CO Noah Cheah was removed from his post

 

[enterprise2]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

How does this case compare with the recent commando drowning incident. Think in that case the CO Noah Cheah was removed from his post

19-year-old Second Sergeant Hu Enhuai died during combat survival training on Pulau Tekong.

The four soldiers have also been charged with nearly drowning another trainee.

If found guilty on both charges, each faces a maximum of four years behind bars.

Hu was attending a combat survival course last August when his commando trainers dunked his head underwater repeatedly.

Hu died from asphyxia and near drowning.

After 10 months of investigation, two commando lieutenants, a warrant officer and the captain who was supervising the course, were charged with causing Hu's death.

27-year-old Lieutenant Ng Chin Fong and 28-year-old Lieutenant Divanandhari were accused of pushing Hu's head into a tub of water several times, holding his head underwater for up to 20 seconds each time, preventing him from surfacing to breathe and digging his nose so he could not hold his breath underwater.

34-year-old Captain Pandiaraj Mayandi was accused of abetting in Hu's death by instigating the trainers, while 45-year-old Warrant Officer Balakrishnan was charged with failing to stop them.

The four were also charged with endangering the life of 26-year-old Captain Ho Wan Huo, another trainee on the same course.

Ho was also dunked.

He suffered acute respiratory distress and nearly drowned.

The defence lawyers of three of the accused have asked for the bail amount of $15,000 to be reduced to $10,000.

They cited the fact that the men have been receiving only half their salaries since they were suspended from duty.

But their request was not granted.

Family members of Sergeant Hu were in court as the charges were read out.

In a statement, Hu's father said the family still grieve the loss of Enhuai and this remains a particularly difficult period for them.

He hopes the trial will uncover the truth about what and who caused his son's death, and justice will take its course.

"The AG Chambers is an independant authority to decide on prosecutions and they will pursue the case in a manner which they think is most fit. At the same time, the personnel charged have the ability to defend themselves with lawyers to the best of their ability. So, this is a fair and open system, a transparent system," said Defence Minister Teo Chee Hean.

The four men have hired their own lawyers, and although they can apply to the Defence Ministry for legal aid, they have not done so.

Sergeant Hu's death and subsequent revelations that such unauthorised training has been going on for more than 5 years, have also led to the removal of the Chief Commando Officer Colonel Noel Cheah.

But the Defence Minister is confident that with new commanders in place, the elite troops are now focused on the future.

Rear Adm Teo said: "I'm confident this unit, which is a good unit, will pull itself through and excel in what it does."

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

How does this case compare with the recent commando drowning incident. Think in that case the CO Noah Cheah was removed from his post

Yup, COL Noel Cheah (Non scholar / Graduate, NUS Local Study Award) was removed from command as Chief Commando Officer. LTC Ho Kian Soon (non scholar / non graduate) was also removed from command. He was commanding officer of the School of Commandos.

Here's a quotable quote from the then Defence Minister, Teo Chee Hean:

 

[scroobal]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Col Noel Cheah was rewarded with a posting to New Zealand for 2 years with Singapore High Commission to sharpen his golf skills and enjoy travel tourism. The normal cause is to be sent to the dog house or to the organisations version of Siberia. He returned to be escalated and eventually became COO of NUH for which he has no background. They sent him to Harvard to do a Management module. This is the same chap that could did not do well for his A levels and had to sit thru SAF version of A levels and only recognised by Singapore Tertiary institutions.

The trouble with this country is the people have no clue when they are taken for a ride.

How does this case compare with the recent commando drowning incident. Think in that case the CO Noah Cheah was removed from his post

 

[Charlie99]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Col Noel Cheah was rewarded with a posting to New Zealand for 2 years with Singapore High Commission to sharpen his golf skills and enjoy travel tourism. The normal cause is to be sent to the dog house or to the organisations version of Siberia. He returned to be escalated and eventually became COO of NUH for which he has no background. They sent him to Harvard to do a Management module. This is the same chap that could did not do well for his A levels and had to sit thru SAF version of A levels and only recognised by Singapore Tertiary institutions.

The trouble with this country is the people have no clue when they are taken for a ride.

It appears that the SAF does what it does, and have different set of rules for different individuals.

I cannot believe that Noel Cheah had a "plum posting" to be the Defence Attache in NZ, after that very serious incident.

Worse, he was then appointed as COO of the NUH.
What has been going on, is morally wrong, and if I dare use the word "morally corrupt."

Regardless how good a commando officer he is, there is no way he was able and qualified to be the COO of the NUH.

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

I thought saf couldnt be legally challenged or sued in any court of law?

When it comes deaths and injuries arising out of training or service, the SAF will hide behind a provision in the Government Proceedings Act that provides 100% indemnity to the SAF and its officers.

In this case, the SAF and these two clowns applied to strike out the family's claim on the grounds that "there is no reasonable cause of action and that the suit is frivolous, vexatious and an abuse of the court process."

This is the very definition of hypocrisy and duplicity. Claiming sympathy for the family very publicly for public consumption and pledging in one breath, to "continue to support them wherever possible". In the very next breath, the dagger is plunged deep into the heart of the mother by claiming that she has "no reasonable cause of action" to sue the SAF and the two officers. As if that is not good enough, the dagger is then twisted a couple of times into the heart of the mother by claiming that her suit is "frivolous, vexatious and an abuse of the court process".

Ng Eng Hen, where is your fucking sense of morality?

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

This is one way MINDEF can get out of this shithole it has dug itself into. The hope that the issue will go away and be forgotten in time will not happen. This is simply because the family has shown that it will not be bullied into silence. Unlike in the past, there is the Internet now. With the help of social media, the issue will be kept burning or at least, continue to flare up from time to time until justice is served. MINDEF needs to recognise the simple fact that the mother is a proxy for all mothers, and the family a proxy for all families who have a son or a male relative serving NS.

1. Invite the mother and her family for a meeting to be chaired by Ng Eng Hen.

2. Take responsibility for the negligence. Apologise verbally and in writing to the mother and family. Forget about the too clever by half type of "we are deeply sorry for the untimely and tragic loss of Pte Lee" apology. That is not an apology. That is trying to cover the SAF's arse and trying to fool the public. This is what the apology should state (or something along this line without the waffles and fudges to cover its arse):

"In line with the findings of the Committee of Inquiry held in 2012 to determine the circumstances surrounding the tragic loss of Pte Dominique Sarron Lee, MINDEF accepts full and unconditional responsibility for the death of Pte Lee. MINDEF extends its deepest sympathy and sincerest apology to Pte Lee's family and loved ones for the pain and anguish that Pte Lee's untimely demise has caused them".​

3. Advise the mother and family to lodge an appeal. Inform them that MINDEF will not contest the appeal and will instead, let the Courts decide.

4. The Armed Forces Council will exercise its right under Section 75 of the SAF Act "Power to quash finding of disciplinary officer" to quash the finding and sentence of the Superior Commander who charged those two fools. It will exercise its rights under Section 75 (4) (b) for the case to be retried in a court martial by a Subordinate Military Court.

5. Work in Parliament to amend or repeal Section 14 of the Government Proceedings Act which allows it to cover its arse when such injuries or deaths occur.

6. Finally, launched an investigation into Ms Teoh Ai Lin, Director Legal Services or whoever was the Director of Legal Services, MINDEF who was in charge during the period when the earlier decision was taken to deal with these two officers under Summary Trial. The investigation will determine whether corruption, conflict of interest, political interference or interference of any kind was/were the reason/s why these two officers were not court martialled or charged under a more "relevant/serious" charge like Section 41 of the SAF Act.​

 

[scroobal]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

They kept him in PDF temporarily until the parliamentary questions stopped and the storm died down. The training was toughened up when he took over. The guy from young was made to be in uniform. He has the cutting and the mindset of a soldier. Not cerebral though. And the NUH COO job is not something that was advertised. He was actually named COO-designate.

It appears that the SAF does what it does, and have different set of rules for different individuals.

I cannot believe that Noel Cheah had a "plum posting" to be the Defence Attache in NZ, after that very serious incident.

Worse, he was then appointed as COO of the NUH.
What has been going on, is morally wrong, and if I dare use the word "morally corrupt."

Regardless how good a commando officer he is, there is no way he was able and qualified to be the COO of the NUH.

 

[scroobal]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Nothing is going to happen. The moment they went to Chee any hope would have gone thru the window. It now political. If Chee wanted to help this family, he would have referred them to people that can help. Its like waving a red flag to the PAP bull. There is no way they are going give credit to Chee. Anyone with half a mind and knowing the history of the PAP and Chee would have told the family it is a bad move.

This is one way MINDEF can get out of this shithole it has dug itself into. The hope that the issue will go away and be forgotten in time will not happen. This is simply because the family has shown that it will not be bullied into silence. Unlike in the past, there is the Internet now. With the help of social media, the issue will be kept burning or at least, continue to flare up from time to time until justice is served. MINDEF needs to recognise the simple fact that the mother is a proxy for all mothers, and the family a proxy for all families who have a son or a male relative serving NS.

1. Invite the mother and her family for a meeting to be chaired by Ng Eng Hen.

2. Take responsibility for the negligence. Apologise verbally and in writing to the mother and family. Forget about the too clever by half type of "we are deeply sorry for the untimely and tragic loss of Pte Lee" apology. That is not an apology. That is trying to cover the SAF's arse and trying to fool the public. This is what the apology should state (or something along this line without the waffles and fudges to cover its arse):

"In line with the findings of the Committee of Inquiry held in 2012 to determine the circumstances surrounding the tragic loss of Pte Dominique Sarron Lee, MINDEF accepts full and unconditional responsibility for the death of Pte Lee. MINDEF extends its deepest sympathy and sincerest apology to Pte Lee's family and loved ones for the pain and anguish that Pte Lee's untimely demise has caused them".​

3. Advise the mother and family to lodge an appeal. Inform them that MINDEF will not contest the appeal and will instead, let the Courts decide.

4. The Armed Forces Council will exercise its right under Section 75 of the SAF Act "Power to quash finding of disciplinary officer" to quash the finding and sentence of the Superior Commander who charged those two fools. It will exercised its rights under Section 75 (4) (b) for the case to be retried in a court martial by a Subordinate Military Court.

5. Work in Parliament to amend or repeal Section 14 of the Government Proceedings Act which allows it to cover its arse when such injuries or deaths occur.

6. Finally, launched an investigation into Ms Teoh Ai Lin, Director Legal Services or whoever was the Director of Legal Services, MINDEF who was in charge during the period when the earlier decision was taken to deal with these two officers under Summary Trial. The investigation will determine whether corruption, conflict of interest, political interference or interference of any kind was/were the reason/s why these two officers were not court martialled or charged under a more "relevant/serious" charge like Section 41 of the SAF Act.​

 

[no_faith]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

I think it is a small issue. It is normal for soldiers to die. That's what soldiers are for... to kill or be killed.

Sinkies should get used to the idea of dying because it won't be long before real grenades will be doing a lot more damage the throw smoke variety.

It is not happening yet. So why should he die first from smoke grenades before the real?

 

[GoldenDragon]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Nothing is going to happen. The moment they went to Chee any hope would have gone thru the window. It now political. If Chee wanted to help this family, he would have referred them to people that can help. Its like waving a red flag to the PAP bull. There is no way they are going give credit to Chee. Anyone with half a mind and knowing the history of the PAP and Chee would have told the family it is a bad move.

Agree. To acquiesce with CSJ flying the flag?
Zero chance.

 

[GoldenDragon]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

It appears that the SAF does what it does, and have different set of rules for different individuals.

I cannot believe that Noel Cheah had a "plum posting" to be the Defence Attache in NZ, after that very serious incident.

Worse, he was then appointed as COO of the NUH.
What has been going on, is morally wrong, and if I dare use the word "morally corrupt."

Regardless how good a commando officer he is, there is no way he was able and qualified to be the COO of the NUH.

It''s who you know not what you know or don't that matters. How they got SPH to manage SMRT is a great example.

 

[shittypore]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

It is not happening yet. So why should he die first from smoke grenades before the real?

Too much Smoke screen was created, shld be 2 the so called commission Officer let go 6. Same as Erection time, B Batok will be bombarded with smoke grenades.

 

[yahoo55]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Time for all those in BB who are unhappy with the injustice suffered by Dominique Lee's family to express themselves with their votes.

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

Nothing is going to happen. The moment they went to Chee any hope would have gone thru the window. It now political. If Chee wanted to help this family, he would have referred them to people that can help. Its like waving a red flag to the PAP bull. There is no way they are going give credit to Chee. Anyone with half a mind and knowing the history of the PAP and Chee would have told the family it is a bad move.

Even without Chee, nothing got done in the past 3 years. So, as I have advised you in this thread, please get over your obsession with Chee and attempting to hijack and surreptitiously sneaking Chee into every thread at every opportunity available.

You and your clones, the PAP and the Chee haters out there are free to take potshots at Chee, screw, ridicule and castigate him. It's really no concern of mine. You can also continue to believe that I am CSJ like you did during the Delphi Forum period in the late 90s. That is your prerogative and your right.

The little that I ask is that you and your clones don't hijack threads to do so because it gets very tiresome and is no different from the tiresome "Chinese dog/race" or "Mark Andrew" hijacks / postings in various and numerous threads. Try not to let your obsession with Chee rule your life, online or offline. TIA for your cooperation.

 

[PTADER]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

It appears that the SAF does what it does, and have different set of rules for different individuals.

There's almost always "interference" when it comes to rewards or punishment and these are carried out "unofficially" by third parties. The more powerful the third parties by virtue of their rank and position, the more influential they will be. It's not just about two eggs in a plate of char kway teow but whether you will be left with a broken plate. They call it having a "godfather" in the SAF.

 

[Papsmearer]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

When it comes deaths and injuries arising out of training or service, the SAF will hide behind a provision in the Government Proceedings Act that provides 100% indemnity to the SAF and its officers.

In this case, the SAF and these two clowns applied to strike out the family's claim on the grounds that "there is no reasonable cause of action and that the suit is frivolous, vexatious and an abuse of the court process."

This is the very definition of hypocrisy and duplicity. Claiming sympathy for the family very publicly for public consumption and pledging in one breath, to "continue to support them wherever possible". In the very next breath, the dagger is plunged deep into the heart of the mother by claiming that she has "no reasonable cause of action" to sue the SAF and the two officers. As if that is not good enough, the dagger is then twisted a couple of times into the heart of the mother by claiming that her suit is "frivolous, vexatious and an abuse of the court process".

Ng Eng Hen, where is your fucking sense of morality?

I wonder in future cases whether lawsuits can be brought against the manufacturer of the ordnances involved. For example in this case, it should ST Kinetics for manufacturing defective smoke grenades. They are not covered under the SAF Act. Suing the manufacturer is common in other countries. No only that, the ambulance service and the medic/doctors on duty that day should have been sued too. No one should ever have to die from an allergic reaction if epi pens, and bronchodilators were carried by the medical staff on duty. Of course in the kangaroo court system, the parents will not win. But they seem to be more interested to highlight the cowardice of the SAF rather then save some money from hiring lawyers.

 

[Papsmearer]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

When it comes deaths and injuries arising out of training or service, the SAF will hide behind a provision in the Government Proceedings Act that provides 100% indemnity to the SAF and its officers.

On this note, why has the WP never once asked the PAP in parliament for a breakdown of all SAF deaths and serious injuries, year by year, since the inception of NS? I think this is a subject that many families want to know. After all, many are sending their only son to NS, and they should be fully aware of the risks and dangers involved. the number should include all reservists and SAF regulars. I think it will be a national shock to the country when they hear how many lives have been sacrificed for no good purpose.

 

[frenchbriefs]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

so scary,u cant even trust your scumbag employers SAF or the government to protect you and not screw you over,i think SAF soldiers better start or join a union that can fight for your rights,either that or start a riot or mutiny,400 man riot will do.all your superior officers and the military police is striving to keep you and every single sinkie male down.

 

[Papsmearer]

Re: The "Punishment" of the two Captains and why MINDEF is so secretive about it –Par

so scary,u cant even trust your scumbag employers SAF or the government to protect you and not screw you over,i think SAF soldiers better start or join a union that can fight for your rights,either that or start a riot or mutiny,400 man riot will do.all your superior officers and the military police is striving to keep you and every single sinkie male down.

The easiest thing to do is to have all mothers prevent their sons from serving NS. That is close to 40,000 boys that will not report. what will SAF do? Court martial all the parents? Put 40,000 kids in DB? Sad fact is that sinkie women are just as balless and clueless as sinkie men.