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Sinkie Archbishop Nicholas Chia withdraws letter to abolish ISA

halsey02

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Don't smoke here with all these kind of nonsense about clandestine network and SIA exco, millionaire businesswoman, etc. Go to the bottom line always. And the bottom line is this:

1) Today, Is the ISA good for SIngaporeans and is it necessary? Even Malaysia has abolished it and we have allowed in hundreds of thousands of card carrying members of the Communist Party of China into Singapore already.

2) Is you say the ISA is bullshit, than it makes sense that it has to be abolished. SO, is a letter from the head of the catholic church advocating the abolishment of this act good or bad?

These are the bottom line questions to ask. No need to weave here and weave there and smoke here and smoke there. U either come down for or against it. Its actually a very black and white topic.

Is the law for the protection of the Common People, or people common to a particular party or their affliates, that is the bottom line. If it is for the protection of the common people for a common good, then, do we still need it, is it still relevant?
 

kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
Papsmearer bro,

Your extremist views are very good entertainment value but not practical. If you form an Opposiiton party, it will fall where it stands.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
These things are at the best of times double edged swords.

If I was Teo Soh Lung, I wil ask myself who are those who manipulated me. In her book she does allude to one person by using an alphabet as an identifier but nothing else. Pointless blaming the govt. They got its results and she and many others are collateral damage.

Its like asking the UN to ban wars genuinely thinking that even one country will agree. The right to wage war is in every country's DNA. Sure it will be pure and wonderful to not wage war but it is wishful thinking.

This does not mean the govt has not abused this piece of legislation. Lets step in when they do. But do note that they are using it sparingly unlike early ears because they cannot keep their seats in parliament if they go their jolly usual way.

Notice that no one not even Teo Soh Lung or Vincent Cheng has raised the issue of the nutjobs that we are dealing with called Jemaah Islamiah (JI). I am sure your family and you as well as Teo Soh Lung are not going to house them when ISA is removed. Who is going to testify against them in court - you?

We have similar laws to detain without trial gangsters and druglords who use naive and desperate blurfucks to move drugs but do not touch them themselves. Are you willing to face an acid bulb after testifying in court?

Get real. The Americans brought back the death sentence and came out with Guantanamo Bay. What are they to you.





Don't smoke here with all these kind of nonsense about clandestine network and SIA exco, millionaire businesswoman, etc. Go to the bottom line always. And the bottom line is this:

1) Today, Is the ISA good for SIngaporeans and is it necessary? Even Malaysia has abolished it and we have allowed in hundreds of thousands of card carrying members of the Communist Party of China into Singapore already.

2) Is you say the ISA is bullshit, than it makes sense that it has to be abolished. SO, is a letter from the head of the catholic church advocating the abolishment of this act good or bad?

These are the bottom line questions to ask. No need to weave here and weave there and smoke here and smoke there. U either come down for or against it. Its actually a very black and white topic.
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
They are not stupid. They are not going to detain NC. They will force the Vatican to remove him. He is no threat or influential if he is out of office. Why would they detain him. It will be damaging. The guy in the first place is not a subversive neither is he being manipulated by subversives. He is making comments that is against the regime and he is holding an office of influence.

I will reveal something here but I suspect that many are aware of this. You cannot lead any sizeable religious order without the authorities allowing it. Any potential firebrand is removed before he or she can reach 3rd level before becoming the leader. They know the makeup of the guy and thus will know that he will fold. This is what the intelligence services are really good at.

They start at the very beginning.

Honestly why do you think that our mosques and the various imams etc are so quiet. You think their Koran is home made. Why you think the Govt generously funds the mosques? Do you think they believe in Islam or is there a wider agenda.

Say for instance, the imam of a local Singapore mosque is travelling with his family on a Malaysian road and meets with an accident or if his daughter gets a deep cut while playing at Kota Tinggi waterfall. Who do you think he calls for help immediately?

Welcome to the real world.



This is where you are wrong. The Vatican will consider who is on the ground to make its decision. The Vatican is not a pro-active rather, its reactive. Lets say for example, Chia was arrested under ISA for this latest episode and imprisoned. You will at this time see the vatican swing into action and call a international condemnation of the arrest and use its considerable PR machine against the arrest and against the PAP. It will call for the release of Chia, and put pressure on other govts. like the Italians to talk to the PAP. If you don't believe this, just look at the Phillippines church during the Marcos era when it was led by Cardinal Jaime Sin. Cardinal SIn was an active participant in the movement against Marcos, organized many political rallies against the dictator, and so forth. Vatican got send anyone from Thailand or Rome to tell him to shut up or not? The reason is no. The vatican realises that Cardinal SIn is a different man of god than Yong or Chia. Sin has actually a vision for his flock in the Phillippines, and he has the will and smarts to carry it out.


What kind of life do you want to live? Cower like wet dog and speak softly in fear of a midnight pounding on yoru door, arrest, torture and long jail term and no trial? If Chia has stood up to the PAP, I would say more people would admire the church instead of laugh at it now.
 

enterprise2

Alfrescian
Loyal
The litmus test is when we have a situation like eg the Anwar case whether the Papies will use ISA since it is a genuine threat to their power base.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Agree. And it will be a litmus test for the Intelligence agencies if they are professionals or bootlickers. I do know that the Intelligence Services hate PA, the grassroots organisations and the PAP porlumpars to the core. Payback will be interesting.

The litmus test is when we have a situation like eg the Anwar case whether the Papies will use ISA since it is a genuine threat to their power base.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Papsmearer bro,

Your extremist views are very good entertainment value but not practical. If you form an Opposiiton party, it will fall where it stands.

Long ago, I already gave up on SIngaporeans, and you are a prime example why. Why is it extreme to advocate for the abolishment of the ISA? If you desire to live under such an arbitrary law and draconian law, its your business. Why is it extreme to stand up against the PAP to get rid of this law? U have no idea what extreme is. If I say kill and torture every last one of these motherfucking PAP and their family, than that would be extreme. I got say such things or not?
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
They are not stupid. They are not going to detain NC. They will force the Vatican to remove him. He is no threat or influential if he is out of office. Why would they detain him. It will be damaging. The guy in the first place is not a subversive neither is he being manipulated by subversives. He is making comments that is against the regime and he is holding an office of influence.

I will reveal something here but I suspect that many are aware of this. You cannot lead any sizeable religious order without the authorities allowing it. Any potential firebrand is removed before he or she can reach 3rd level before becoming the leader. They know the makeup of the guy and thus will know that he will fold. This is what the intelligence services are really good at.

They start at the very beginning.

Honestly why do you think that our mosques and the various imams etc are so quiet. You think their Koran is home made. Why you think the Govt generously funds the mosques? Do you think they believe in Islam or is there a wider agenda.

Say for instance, the imam of a local Singapore mosque is travelling with his family on a Malaysian road and meets with an accident or if his daughter gets a deep cut while playing at Kota Tinggi waterfall. Who do you think he calls for help immediately?

Welcome to the real world.

This is not the real world, this is your fantasy world. In the real world, the archbishop is appointed only by the Vatican and the Pope. U think the Vatican with 1 billion members around the world give a flying shit whether Con You authorizes the appointment of NC or not? They will appoint who they want. In China's case, the PRC govt. is so afraid of this that they forcibly appoint their own archbishops and bishops in the Chinese Catholic church. Needless to say, these are not approved and not recognized by the vatican. If we subcribe to your so call real world, than the vatican's appointments must be authorized and approved by the chinese govt. This is not the case as the Vatican does not recognize any governmental jurisdiction over its appointments.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Many of us stand up against the PAP. We make damaging comments, we reveal things that they do not like, we force them to change tact every now and then but no one is going to throw the baby out with the bath water.

The ISA was there before the PAP. So was CLTP.

Do not assume that PAP was so hardworking that they created the Police Force, the Civil Service from scratch.

Hold the Govt accountable for the abuse of the legislation, labelling people falsely, damaging lives in the name of national security, not be honest and sincere etc.

When old man was stepping out he knew that his convenient interpretation of the law, the flippant use of the govt machinary will come back and bite his family. So he wanted check mechanism and created the elected President and he screwed it up.

We just have to keep up the pressure.




Long ago, I already gave up on SIngaporeans, and you are a prime example why. Why is it extreme to advocate for the abolishment of the ISA? If you desire to live under such an arbitrary law and draconian law, its your business. Why is it extreme to stand up against the PAP to get rid of this law? U have no idea what extreme is. If I say kill and torture every last one of these motherfucking PAP and their family, than that would be extreme. I got say such things or not?
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
These things are at the best of times double edged swords.

If I was Teo Soh Lung, I wil ask myself who are those who manipulated me. In her book she does allude to one person by using an alphabet as an identifier but nothing else. Pointless blaming the govt. They got its results and she and many others are collateral damage.

Its like asking the UN to ban wars genuinely thinking that even one country will agree. The right to wage war is in every country's DNA. Sure it will be pure and wonderful to not wage war but it is wishful thinking.

This does not mean the govt has not abused this piece of legislation. Lets step in when they do. But do note that they are using it sparingly unlike early ears because they cannot keep their seats in parliament if they go their jolly usual way.

Notice that no one not even Teo Soh Lung or Vincent Cheng has raised the issue of the nutjobs that we are dealing with called Jemaah Islamiah (JI). I am sure your family and you as well as Teo Soh Lung are not going to house them when ISA is removed. Who is going to testify against them in court - you?

We have similar laws to detain without trial gangsters and druglords who use naive and desperate blurfucks to move drugs but do not touch them themselves. Are you willing to face an acid bulb after testifying in court?

Get real. The Americans brought back the death sentence and came out with Guantanamo Bay. What are they to you.

Again, you are obscuring the argument and beating around the bush and deviating with shit like guantanamo bay and what not. There are already in existence many laws covering every conceivable crime in singapore, including possession of firearms, bombs, plotting to kill, etc. Any number of these laws can be used against your so called nutjobs like JI and what not. U do not need the ISA for this.

Your pathetic argument that its ok because the PAP is using it sparingly now is such a joke and a sad excuse. Is there such a thing as a little bit pregnant? The ISA has been used in the past not as an instrument of national security but as an instrument of political expediency to keep the PAP in power. As long as this law is in existence, it will always been subject to political abuse. the temptation is too great not to use it, and the beauty of it is that you can be totally innocent, but u can still be locked up under this law without your day in court.

Now if you come to me and say "PAPsmearer, lets not abolish this law. because when the PAP loses power and is thrown out of office either by ballot (unlikely) or by the will of the people, we need this law to use against all the PAP and lee/Kwa family. We need to use this law to break into their multimillion dollar homes in the middle of the night without a warrant, arrest them, and throw them into prision until they talk and disclose how mcuh they stole from us". If you say this, than I agree with you that we keep the ISA. All other reasoning u come up with is crap.
 

ChaoPappyPoodle

Alfrescian
Loyal
When old man was stepping out he knew that his convenient interpretation of the law, the flippant use of the govt machinary will come back and bite his family. So he wanted check mechanism and created the elected President and he screwed it up.

We just have to keep up the pressure.

He never stepped down. He still oversees major issues that can turn things around quickly. It is only day to day issues that he has let go off. He will never trust anyone including his son to ensure his own dictatorial safety and legacy as founding father. What people should be doing is to educate the masses on political matters. The ignorance of Singaporeans to political systems and politicians is probably one of the most appalling in the entire world. 50 years of brain washing and social engineering has done great damage. Bringing small matters or irritation is no pressure. Educating people so that they know why they are in a situation will allow them to realise how to get out of the system. If people do not know the enemy then they will never be able to conquer the enemy. Hundreds of thousands have been robbed of their CPF and many more have been cheated by subsidised public housing and yet these people feel that they are doing fine and that is the price to pay for peace and prosperity.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
He never stepped down. He still oversees major issues that can turn things around quickly. It is only day to day issues that he has let go off. He will never trust anyone including his son to ensure his own dictatorial safety and legacy as founding father. What people should be doing is to educate the masses on political matters. The ignorance of Singaporeans to political systems and politicians is probably one of the most appalling in the entire world. 50 years of brain washing and social engineering has done great damage. Bringing small matters or irritation is no pressure. Educating people so that they know why they are in a situation will allow them to realise how to get out of the system. If people do not know the enemy then they will never be able to conquer the enemy. Hundreds of thousands have beenbrobbed of their CPF and many more have been cheated by subsidised public housing and yet these people feel that they are doing fine and that is the price to pay for peace and prosperity.

U are absolutely right, and this is what Scroobal still does not get. U Keep simi lancheow pressure on the PAP? They have been around for 50 years, they don't feel any pressure anymore. What Scroobal is advocating is akin to pricking an elephant with a sewing needle. The elephant will feel nothing. But stab the elephant with a spear, and it will feel something. The PAP is so monolithic that it is the elephant. The time for half measures and so called pressure is long past. Every day that the govt. does not change is another day that the people of singapore are suffering under. I have seen so many friends and relatives suffer, their lot is not getting better but worse every year. Every day the govt. is in power, means that more damage has been done and hence the harder it will be to fix it. THE PAP IS THE CANCER IN SINGAPORE, THE LONGER YOU DELAY THE TREATMENT BY GETTING RID OF THE CANCER, THE WORSE OFF YOU WILL BE.

At this rate, there will be no singapore left in another 50 years. Almost an entire generation now have been applying this so call Scroobal "pressure" with no success.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Hold the Govt accountable for the abuse of the legislation, labelling people falsely, damaging lives in the name of national security, not be honest and sincere etc.

I don't understand you. One of the ways that we can hold the govt. accountable is by getting them to admit they abused the ISA, and there are already many other laws that cover anything else, and hence get rid of it. Than on the other hand, u want them to keep the ISA. How do you hold them accountable when u keep letting them get away with it.
 

enterprise2

Alfrescian
Loyal
Like it or not the PaP system is totally ebedden within our social and political system. We can only slowly stop the growth and slowly remove the vilest part slowly. If u guys want to go for a revolution, then it may destroy the entire system. I don't think anyone in his right mind wants that. No matter what anyone says, Singapore is still doing pretty well - this coming from one of the 40%. First thing get rid or put more stringent controls on ISA, 2nd thing get rid of PA, and 3rd...no more redrawing of electoral boundaries....
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
They are not stupid. They are not going to detain NC. They will force the Vatican to remove him. He is no threat or influential if he is out of office. Why would they detain him. It will be damaging.

In essence, you have just stated my entire case for Nicholas Chia to publish his letter of support for the abolishment of the ISA. In not so many words, u have just answered the question "If Nicholas Chia were to go ahead and publish this letter, what can the PAP do to him?" the answer is NOTHING.

U are right, they are not so stupid as to detain him. ANd exactly how will they force the vatican to remove him? Cut all trade ties with the Vatican? Boycott all Vatican goods? Send some SOF to Rome and put a gun to the Pope's head? The answer is really, they don't have the power to force the Vatican to remove him. Will the PAP gazette the Catholic religion and ban it in singapore like the Hare Krishnas? There wil be a riot in the streets tomorrow. Wil they forcibly send police in to close all the catholic schools, charity orgs. offices, churches, etc. Again no, they will not dare to do that. So, the question u have not answered is "Exactly what is Nick Chia scared of?" The answer to that is that he should be scared of nothing. But like I have stated before, he has yet to grow a pair of testicles.

My major dissapointment here is not that he has let down catholics and the church. My dissappointment is that he has let down all the citizens of singapore. Here he has an opportunity to speak out against an onerous piece of legislature, which if removed, would be a benefit to all of singapore. But instead, he cowers like a little child. I hope he reads my comments in this thread or someone in his office will bring it to his attention.
 
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Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Like it or not the PaP system is totally ebedden within our social and political system. We can only slowly stop the growth and slowly remove the vilest part slowly. If u guys want to go for a revolution, then it may destroy the entire system. I don't think anyone in his right mind wants that. No matter what anyone says, Singapore is still doing pretty well - this coming from one of the 40%. First thing get rid or put more stringent controls on ISA, 2nd thing get rid of PA, and 3rd...no more redrawing of electoral boundaries....

U have answered you own question and contradicted yourself. I totally agree that the the PAP is embeded in our system to such a degree that its ridiculous when u think of it. All the things u mention, get rid of the PA, redraw the electoral boundaries, etc. are all pipe dreams. As long as the PAP is in power, why would they want to do that?

The sooner that you and everyone else accept the fact that the PAP will never leave peacefully, than you will realise the only way to get rid of these assholes will be to take to the streets. The degree of blood that will be spilled is entirely dependent on how much the PAP will resist. If the Lee/Kwas and their cronies take their money and quietly flee, than maybe not too much bloodshed. If the citizen army says we will not shoot our friends, relatives and neighbours on the streets, than the bloodshed will be minimal. It all depends.

Study your history closely. Look at all the people/political parties that were once so entrenched in their countries that no one would ever thought they would be gone, but gone they were and not by peace ful means either.

1) ROC - I would consider this to be a close analogy to Singapore. here is a country dominated by a cult figure like Chiang kai Shek, and very entrenched political party, the KMT. You can insert Lee Con You and the PAP here. Who would have ever thought the KMT would be lose political office one day? But they did, and the change was a result of people taking to the streets against them. happened in 1990 during the White Lily student protests when 300,000 students took to the streets to demonstrate for reforms. Fortunately, although some violence happened, not too much blood was spilled. It could not have happened otherwise as the KMT had banned all opposition parties at that time. Gee you ask, why would a developed wealthy country like taiwan actually take to the streets to protest against their govt.? Don't these people have food on their tables? Roof over their heads?

2) South Korea- Another country that was an economic success and one of the 5 tigers of asia, along with Singapore. SOme of the world's largest and most prominent businesses reside here. If you wanted a good job, a university spot, u could get it quite easily in South Korea. Yet in 1987, millions of people took to the streets to demand an end to military rule and defacto martial law. Why? Was the authoritarian military govt. incompetent? Not really, many of their economic policies and the development of certain economic sectors were quite successful.

SO why did the people of these 2 economically successful countries take to the streets and demand change? This is the same reason and excuse the PAP gives all the time. Namely "Look, how successful we are, keep voting for us again. There is no reason for u to vote otherwise, and well if you do, we have all these laws and powers like the ISA to take care of you".

The people of ROC and South Korea were not exactly starving on the streets, and their water, trains, power, roads, etc. worked quite well. They had jobs even and a chance at a university education. They were just as well off, if not more than their counterparts in Singapore. Why than did they want a change?

1) The time had come for their old model political system of authoritarian rule, and democratic restrictions to move on. These people know that these old system were needed to bring their country to where it was. But for the country to go up to the next level you need to have less govt. domination, less restriction on ideas and freedom of expression. Many viewpoints must be allowed to be heard and seen, not just only the govt.'s viewpoint. This has proven to work, these 2 countries have actually become even stronger in the world economy, and in South Korea's case they are almost at the level of japan. Could the SOuth Koreans have gotten where they are today with the old military junta? Not likely.

2) People work harder and more creatively when they are not threatened, restricted or confined by dictatorial rules. This is just a human fact of life. People work hard every day, but at the end of it, they do not want to be careful about what they say out loud and to whom. If you can be just as successful within the context of a democracy, than that is much preferable to trying to be successful within a dictatorship.

3) The people of these 2 countries saw that when u have absolute power and have been entrenched for a long time, corruption always happens. And this was one of the main reasons that did the KMT and the Korean military juntas in.

After you look at these 2 examples, (and there are many more like Thailand, Indonesia, Phillipines etc. but they have the added ammunition of poverty and 3rd world status), you will realise that no matter how the ballot box turns out, the PAP will never go quietly. The sooner u understand this the easier it will be for everyone. The PAP has been running this country like their own private property for decades now, do not be afraid to physically take it back. Preferably by non violent means.
 
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kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
You are taking too black and white a view of this. In reality, things are not that way. If you were to form an Opp party and scream for abolishment of ISA, you would not get a majority to support you. Even if they abolish it, they can always come up with another version of it, and the intent is there. Catch them doing something wrong and pin them on it, and the general electorate will be able to see your reasoning and stand with you. I say this because times have changed, the electorate are younger more educated and have seen the world, studied overseas and have an international outlook. Most of us will spew anti-ISA venom but in the end, we know that if you form the next govt, you will need it to deal with JI, terrorists, etc. and that it was all rhetoric to win votes (I'm not sure you will tho).



Long ago, I already gave up on SIngaporeans, and you are a prime example why. Why is it extreme to advocate for the abolishment of the ISA? If you desire to live under such an arbitrary law and draconian law, its your business. Why is it extreme to stand up against the PAP to get rid of this law? U have no idea what extreme is. If I say kill and torture every last one of these motherfucking PAP and their family, than that would be extreme. I got say such things or not?
 

enterprise2

Alfrescian
Loyal
Sorry bros u want revolution u r on your own. Me, I rather drink my tequilas and watch the action with a couple of senoritas at my side.
 
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