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The myth of having not enough babies

littlefish

Alfrescian
Loyal
We have often heard about the claim that Singaporeans are not producing enough babies and I would like to look at this issue in more detail.

Firstly, let's assume that there is a minimum income required to comfortably support a family of 2 children and probably 2 parents (due to the Stop At Two campaign, each sibling will have to support one parent each). There will be some lucky ones who would not need to support their parents but I will say that most people will need to provide for their parents in some way or another.

Next, let's take a look at the income distribution in Singapore. I only have the statistics for 2000 so I will just make use of that. I will make the assumption that $5000 is the minimum household income per month to raise a family without too many worries. I think the figure would be more now (seeing that women want their partners to be earning at least $4000 per month) but this figure should still be relatively true in 2000. After deducting 20% CPF, that would leave $4000 disposable income for supporting 6 persons or almost $700 per person (children would possibly need less than $700, so this is an amount adequate to live on comfortably, I would say). From the statistics (from Wikipedia), it can be seen that 65% of the population has a household income of less than $5000 per month. This means a whopping majority of the population are unable to raise a family comfortably. You can change the minimum income threshold but I believe it would not make much of a difference. Although the 65% may include 1-person or 2-person households but if they want to start a family, they would most likely face the same issues and/or they may need to support their elderly parents (not living with them) as well.

Next, let's take a look at the measures provided to encourage Singaporeans to have more babies. There is the baby bonus and the working mother tax rebate. For the baby bonus, you get a cash grant of a few thousand dollars of each child and then subsequent matching contributions from the government. The message here is clear. If you are poor, you are unlikely to put in money to be eligible for the matching grants and you lose out. For the working mother tax rebate, again the benefit is skewed towards the rich. If you are poor, you are unlikely to find a job that will allow you to hire a maid to look after the kids while both parents work. Even if the mother works, she would probably not benefit from the rebate as she is likely to be earning below the taxable income threshold or close to it. So, most likely, the mother will remain at home while only the father works. It is clear that the support schemes are all targeted at the comfortably rich, the minority.

With the majority of the population not getting any benefits or help, is it any wonder that people are not having enough babies? Unless the government is expecting those benefitting to have at least 5-6 babies to make up the numbers. With the government getting foreign labour in, those at the lower end of society will see their wages depressed even more (bus drivers are paid around $1200 per month, I think).

The root of the problem of not enough babies is not that Singaporeans do not want to have babies. It is the direct result of government policies or rather, the lack of appropriate government policies. Some of you may say that the Malays seem to have no problems raising big families. But there is one point that is ignored. Singapore is in the middle of the Malay region, for the Malays, they can easily move to neighbouring countries and survive there if conditions become too difficult as they share the same ancestry and culture. For the rest of the population, where can they move to? It is regarded as a shame if a man cannot provide for his family. Singaporean women are also demanding higher standards of living and you can see the trend of more and more men marrying wives from other countries (but that doesn't really change the fact that raising a family would still be difficult). Women who cannot find partners here tend to marry men from western countries and may then move there with their husbands (or their children may not take up Singaporean citizenship).

To solve the issue, there needs to be a more equitable income distribution. That means ensuring that the costs of living are low enough for the majority to get by. There are many means to do that but the schemes must be targeted at the large majority of the population, not just those at the upper crust of society (e.g. allowing every family with a child and having a household income less than $5000pm to receive a child benefit). As for whether the Malays have been out-reproducing the other ethnic groups, I see no evidence of this. For the period from 1970 to 1990 (when there is relatively little migration of foreigners into Singapore), the composition of the racial makeup has remained stable. Besides, isn't singling out the Malay population for blame too racist? Imagine if you belong to the minority group and the government tries to penalise you for it (do we want to follow Malaysia's example?). If they do not want to encourage families (Malay or otherwise) from having too many children, they can put a cap on the number of children for getting the child benefit or disallow Muslims from having more than one wife (it has been more than 40 years and there should not be a separate set of laws for them, Singapore is not a Muslim country, if we get attacked for this, I am sure most people would want to defend our way of life to the death).

Every society will have its underclass and the stability of a society depends on how everyone is taken care of, not just making sure only the rich are looked after. I do not know what is the aim of PAP but it seems to be trying to create a society of elites and their "slaves" (cheap foreign labour) and hoping that the poor Singaporeans will die out by themselves. Sounds like the setting of a sci-fi novel I have read when I was a teenager. In short, I will just say that the government policies have failed miserably because they are still trying to do social engineering at the same time rather than ensuring that everyone benefits equally.
 
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po2wq

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
wa! u write so much ...


ppl no enuf is gahmen's prob ...

moni no enuf is ur prob ...


:p
 

takcheksian

Alfrescian
Loyal
I agree with littlefish.

We seem to be headed for a very bad end. Somebody's eugenics social engineering...
 

DerekDear

Alfrescian
Loyal
We have often heard about the claim that Singaporeans are not producing enough babies and I would like to look at this issue in more detail.

Firstly, let's assume that there is a minimum income required to comfortably support a family of 2 children and probably 2 parents (due to the Stop At Two campaign, each sibling will have to support one parent each). There will be some lucky ones who would not need to support their parents but I will say that most people will need to provide for their parents in some way or another.

.

Wah lan eh.... how to read... long winded.

This entire paragraph hardly makes a point, summarized as: For those of the government's "stop at 2" generation, most have to support their parents.

Eh... the rest is too much garbage, examine in detail doesn't mean to talk so much cock.
 

kiwibird7

Alfrescian
Loyal
It is mainly an attitude problem that results in low fertility rates. Obsessive materialism breeds utter selfishness and results in the unwillingness to make sacrifices.

Cost is NOT THE FACTOR responsible, the rich and successful do not have many children as well as they could very afford to if they wanted to. In fact it is often the less well off, the semi-skilled who usually have more children.

Then LKY stepped in with his infamous EUGENICS theory aka the "Graduate Mother's Scheme" and the $10,000 carrot to those women with no "O" levels to get sterilised (many have forgotten this policy) and the true agenda became clearer.
 

eeoror88

Alfrescian
Loyal
This national problem has to be put in proper context and cannot be taken lightly !!

That is why you do not need rocket science to deduce the reason as to why so many qualified and educated foreigners are "encouraged" to study, work and settle here as citizens and PRs.

The paramount reason is the extremely low birth rate and the increase in the number of aged Singaporeans.

The problems are exerbated by the increase in the rising number of old Singaporean singles and wretched divorcees here.

If the problem is left alone, this TINY red dot will become a GIANT old age home !!
 

eQuipment

Alfrescian
Loyal
last time say stop at 2, then the 2 now grow up, then inflation for costs of living + 2 old fellas to support at home, how to afford?

don't forget the generation of 2 was also the era when either they made it to secondary and/or tertiary education, or they become condemned to society with only 8 extended or 8 mono or VI educational status. these ppl suffer & maybe some of them now form the super low income percentile.

then, bcos of vacuum for workforce, resort to introducing foreign labor. then later, more need for skilled foreign labor, bcos of the accelerated pace to develop the island, then need for lagi more skilled foreign labor, so that the developed system can run smoothly. then, those migrants come make a killing, then leave the country go back to their motherland, so the vacuum for skilled labor was never filled.

in other words, sporns r the ones left out, n the edu system fails to identify industry & workforce needs, so constantly piping out hundreds of thousands of redundant job applicants with irrelevant skills. so at the end, sporns resort to taking irrelevant jobs n earning less income.

all the shortfalls add up.......................... not enough $ to keep up with inflation, those who can, find it tough to raise kids n put them thru fullscale education. so if miscalculated, we end up with new generation of underqualified shitizens, easily replaced by foreign trash lor.
 

jw5

Moderator
Moderator
Loyal
Why do we want more selfish, spoilt, whinny, inconsiderate, brats running about?
 

po2wq

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
... ppl no enuf is gahmen's prob ...

moni no enuf is ur prob ... :p
gahmen is oni interested in iz own prob ...
gahmen is nt interested in ur prob ...
so, dun go n tel gahmen ur prob ...

ur prob is ur prob ...
ur prob is nt gahmen's prob ...
so, dun make ur prob gahmen's prob ...

but, gahmen's prob is oso ur prob ...
n gahmen wants u 2 work 2 solve gahmen's prob ...

wen gahmen's prob is solved, gahmen is happy ...
ur prob remains ur prob ...


:o
 

newyorker88

Alfrescian
Loyal
I agree with littlefish.

We seem to be headed for a very bad end. Somebody's eugenics social engineering...


This had been foreseen years ago, but who step up to oppose it? No one. Results? A shrinking population and many more migrated.

To over come this problem, they are giving PRs to almost anyone like pancakes.

To grow an economy, you need a growing population. When population starts to fall, so will your economy. That is one reason why gov is so keen to get many PRs to take up citizenships.

Old fart should go away and leave politics alone. His agendas are past and history. Time to let things take it own nature way and LHL out of the way too. He is just there to oversee his daddy works. Ask him if he himself can REALLY be the PM, and be in charge of the country. I like to know the answer he has in his mind. Not from his mouth out of pride.
 

Nice-Gook

Alfrescian
Loyal
we need more babies - quit u whinning

<style></style>If we need more babies than the production line should have gone into action 20 years ago so that they would now be grown ups to serve NS or compete with PRC mei mei(s) in geylang.Any baby produced now is simply a liability for the next 20 years or so.

You see ,like fruiting trees baby needs to grow for at least 20 years before they become useful even for HOTA to harvest their organs.

Do you now see the fallacy of more baby craps from PAP?
 

littlefish

Alfrescian
Loyal
The main aim of my post is to show that what the government has been telling us are lies. They have been saying that Singaporeans do not want to have babies despite the measures they have implemented.

I want to show that the measures have failed because they are only targeted at the upper crust of society. The government is still believing that the rich should have more babies but we know that this is not the case as shown in societies around the world. The rich are selfish and too many babies will detract from their quality of life. Besides, would many want to have half a dozen kids even if he/she is extremely rich?

Thus, it is a myth that Singaporeans do not want to have babies. The truth is that it is the policies (foreigner influx, helping only the rich, etc) laid down by the government that is causing the shortage. My view is that not enough has been done to address this issue before deciding that we need to import foreigners. The claim of Singaporeans not reproducing enough is a red herring.

Sure, I can just put up a simple statement that it is the government's fault but I need to provide proper arguments to show my train of thought to back up the statement.

And yes, I do admit I can get pretty long-winded. Thank you for your patience. :smile:
 

Nice-Gook

Alfrescian
Loyal
Babies or no babies the population of sinkie had grown more than double from the day PAP came to power.This despite low birth rate coupled with mass migration aka the brain drain of sinkie to greener pastures like Australia and US.How did sinkie doubled its population with all that?..Simple ,overseas Chinese particularly from Malaysia contributed to the population growth of sinkie.Why ! even our multi million ministers are Malaysians.We did not complaint since these Malaysians easily blended with us.Now even theses Malaysian Chinese shun Leegime.They get better bargains in Bolehland.So PRC had to be imported.Hence the PAP spin of all these baby craps.

But still it does not answer why we need such a large number of population.The only reason could be taxation and consumption.The more the merrier for PAP.Fuck local born.
 

ahbengsong

Alfrescian
Loyal
wa! u write so much ...
ppl no enuf is gahmen's prob ...
moni no enuf is ur prob ...
:p

It is the cost of living which puts sinkees off from having more children ... the pap only wants the rich and famous to breed ... this is their brand of eugenics renewal ...
 
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