New Greece austerity move prompts strikes and protests

[singveld]

The losers of Greece, own money pay money, they want the rest of europe to foot the bill, they are the one who cook the book of their economic so to join Euro. Now, they are begging the EU for money they borrow, to buy cars, house, designer goods and holiday.

What spartan of 300 blocking the persian, now 3 millions greece beggars cannot block the persian. A nation of losers and spenders, they only good in protesting and striking.

Cannot believe this is a super power thousands years ago.


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The tougher measures announced on Wednesday affected pensions, tax thresholds and civil servant posts
Greece is being hit by a 24-hour public transport strike in the latest protest against government austerity measures.

Train, bus and taxi services have been crippled and air traffic controllers will stop work for several hours. There will also be a mass protest of public sector workers later in Athens.

The government has toughened its measures, cutting pensions further and suspending more civil servant posts.

It says this must be done to receive a vital 8bn-euro (£6.9bn) tranche of aid.

This is the latest segment of a 110bn euro ($150bn) package of loans established by eurozone countries and the IMF to help Greece pay its huge debts.

The government says its tougher measures are an attempt to secure the continued backing of international creditors and prevent a default on debt payment.

'Sacrificial altar'

The people of Athens were struggling through car-clogged streets on Thursday as the metro, trams, trains, buses and taxis all stopped work.

Flights will be delayed or cancelled by a three-to-four hour walk-out by air traffic controllers in the afternoon.

Some teachers and civil servants also stopped work.

Continue reading the main story “Start QuoteI'm 73 years old and I will start a war. The same way [the government] wants a war”

End Quote Efthymios Gardikiotis Pensioner
Can Greece meet its austerity targets?

In addition to Thursday's strike, the main private sector union has called for more next month to protest at the austerity measures.

The tougher measures announced on Wednesday affected pensions, tax thresholds and civil servant posts.

Monthly pensions above a 1,200 euro ($1,600) threshold will be cut by 20% and those retiring below the age of 55 will see a 40% cut in pensions over a 1,000 euro threshold.

The number of civil servants suspended on partial pay will rise by 50% to 30,000 by the end of the year.

And the threshold at which income tax becomes payable on annual salaries will drop from 8,000 to 5,000 euros.

Several newspapers on Thursday condemned the measures. The pro-government Ta Nea said pensioners and civil servants had been put on a "sacrificial altar".

The government has also come in for criticism from the business sector as well as workers.

Constantinos Michalos, head of the Athens chamber of commerce and industry, told state TV: "There is no compass, this government doesn't know where it's going."

He later told the BBC: "People are going to revolt for sure - how can you milk a cow when it hasn't been fed?"

Many workers and pensioners are expected to protest in Athens at lunchtime.

Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos announces new measures the government says are vital
Retiree Efthymios Gardikiotis told Associated Press: "I'm 73 years old and I will start a war. The same way [the government] wants a war."

However, not all saw the point in strikes.

One civil servant at the ministry of finance, Georgia Haloulou, told the BBC they would do more harm in the long run.

She said: "Strikes will get us nowhere. The government, any government, has to do the cutbacks because otherwise we won't be able to get the loan; if we don't get the loan, nobody is going to be paid."

The BBC's Mark Lowen in Athens says the government is determined to see off the protests as it must push the austerity measures through to qualify for the next instalment of financial support.

He says the European Central Bank, European Commission and International Monetary Fund have been disappointed at the slow pace of reform and will be back in Greece over the next few days to determine whether Greece will qualify for the aid. Without it, our correspondent says, Greece will effectively go bankrupt.

The president of the European Council, Herman Van Rompuy, insisted a Greek default would be avoided, because the alternative was just too dangerous.

After a six-hour cabinet meeting on Wednesday, government spokesman Elias Mossialos said of the latest measures: "This sends a message to our partners and to the markets that Greece both wishes and is able to fulfil its commitments and remain at the core of the eurozone and the EU."

 

[red amoeba]

greece & many European nations are saddled with health & pension benefits ...which grow every year.

n their economy hasn't exactly been sexy - apart from olive oil & tourism. Seems the curse of the Olympics,..who will imagine during the fanfare in 2004 when they held the Olympics?

i noe, PAP will tell you - there i told you thats why we won't go down this route in the first place

 

[neddy]

The losers of Greece, own money pay money, they want the rest of europe to foot the bill, they are the one who cook the book of their economic so to join Euro. Now, they are begging the EU for money they borrow, to buy cars, house, designer goods and holiday.

What spartan of 300 blocking the persian, now 3 millions greece beggars cannot block the persian. A nation of losers and spenders, they only good in protesting and striking.

Cannot believe this is a super power thousands years ago.


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Cannot blame Greece completely. They have a looong history of defaulting going back thousands of years, the last time in the 1930s. They are a great civilisation of good and bad, eg corruption.

The rich northern Europeans are just as guilty of throwing good money to their poorer southern neighbours.

A Italian told me that blaming the PIIGs is like a man blaming his fuckmate for getting pregnant. If the man has not play creampie and ensure the pill works, there will not be problem.

Now, hoping for an orderly Greece default.

 

[singveld]

Greek Wealth Is Everywhere but Tax Forms

ATHENS — In the wealthy, northern suburbs of this city, where summer temperatures often hit the high 90s, just 324 residents checked the box on their tax returns admitting that they owned pools.

Athenians declared taxes at a local office. Greek’s shadow economy represents 20 to 30 percent of its G.D.P.
So tax investigators studied satellite photos of the area — a sprawling collection of expensive villas tucked behind tall gates — and came back with a decidedly different number: 16,974 pools.

That kind of wholesale lying about assets, and other eye-popping cases that are surfacing in the news media here, points to the staggering breadth of tax dodging that has long been a way of life here.

Such evasion has played a significant role in Greece’s debt crisis, and as the country struggles to get its financial house in order, it is going after tax cheats as never before.

Various studies, including one by the Federation of Greek Industries last year, have estimated that the government may be losing as much as $30 billion a year to tax evasion — a figure that would have gone a long way to solving its debt problems.

“We need to grow up,” said Ioannis Plakopoulos, who like all owners of newspaper stands will have to give receipts and start using a cash register under the new tax laws passed last month. “We need to learn not to cheat or to let others cheat.”

On the eve of an International Monetary Fund bailout deal that is sure to call for deep sacrifices here, including harsh austerity measures, layoffs and steep tax increases, many Greeks say they feel chastened by the financial crisis that has pushed the country to the edge of bankruptcy.

But even so, changing things will not be easy. Experts point out that ducking taxes is part of a broader culture of bribery and corruption that is deeply entrenched.

Mr. Plakopoulos, who supports most of the government’s new efforts, admits that he and his friends used to chuckle over the best ways to avoid taxes.

To get more attentive care in the country’s national health system, Greeks routinely pay doctors cash on the side, a practice known as “fakelaki,” Greek for little envelope. And bribing government officials to grease the wheels of bureaucracy is so standard that people know the rates. They say, for instance, that 300 euros, about $400, will get you an emission inspection sticker.

Some of the most aggressive tax evaders, experts say, are the self-employed, a huge pool of people in this country of small businesses. It includes not just taxi drivers, restaurant owners and electricians, but engineers, architects, lawyers and doctors.

The cheating is often quite bold. When tax authorities recently surveyed the returns of 150 doctors with offices in the trendy Athens neighborhood of Kolonaki, where Prada and Chanel stores can be found, more than half had claimed an income of less than $40,000. Thirty-four of them claimed less than $13,300, a figure that exempted them from paying any taxes at all.

Such incomes defy belief, said Ilias Plaskovitis, the general secretary of the Finance Ministry, who has been in charge of revamping the country’s tax laws. “You need more than that to pay your rent in that neighborhood,” he said.

He said there were only a few thousand citizens in this country of 11 million who last year declared an income of more than $132,000. Yet signs of wealth abound.

“There are many people with a house, with a cottage in the country, with two cars and maybe a small boat who claim they are earning 12,000 euros a year,” Mr. Plaskovitis said, which is about $15,900. “You cannot heat this house or buy the gas for the car with that kind of income.”

The Greek government has set a goal for itself of collecting at least $1.6 billion more than last year — a modest goal, Mr. Plaskovitis believes. But European Union officials were so skeptical, Mr. Plaskovitis said, they would not even allow the figure to be included in the budget forecast used in negotiations over the bailout package.

“They said, ‘Yes, yes, we have heard that before, but it never happens,’ ” he said.

Over the past decade, Greece actually lost ground in collecting taxes, even as the economy was booming. A 2008 European Union report on Greece tax shortfalls found that between 2000 and 2007, the country’s average growth in nominal gross domestic product was 8.25 percent. Its taxes grew at just 7 percent.

How Greece ended up with this state of affairs is a matter of debate here. Some attribute it to Greece’s long history under Turkish occupation, when Greeks got used to seeing the government as an enemy. Others point out that, classical history aside, Greece is actually a relatively young democracy.

Whatever the reason, Kostas Bakouris, the president of the Greek arm of the anticorruption organization Transparency International, said that Greeks were constantly facing the lure of petty corruption. “If they go to the mechanic, it is one price without a receipt and quite a bit more with it,” Mr. Bakouris said.

He said his own sister had recently told him that she was uncomfortable asking her doctor for a receipt. “I said that’s crazy,” he said. “But still, that feeling is out there.”
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Debt Rising in Europe
Related

Greeks Take to Streets in Protest of Deep Spending Cuts (May 2, 2010)
In and Out of Each Other’s European Wallets (May 2, 2010)
Various studies have concluded that Greece’s shadow economy represented 20 to 30 percent of its gross domestic product. Friedrich Schneider, the chairman of the economics department at Johannes Kepler University of Linz, studies Europe’s shadow economies; he said that Greece’s was at 25 percent last year and estimated that it would rise to 25.2 percent in 2010. For comparison, the United States’ was put at 7.8 percent.

The Finance Ministry believes that the new tax laws, which also increased the weight on income and value-added taxes, have laid the legal groundwork for better enforcement. In the past, the tax code gave many categories of workers special status. Entire professions were allowed to file a set income. For instance, newsstand owners could simply claim that they earned an income of 12,000 euros (about $15,900) and no questions were asked.

Now, most of these exceptions have been eliminated and the tax code has been simplified. It also offers various incentives to make people collect receipts — an important step, officials say, in shrinking the off-the-books economy.

In addition, the tax department is being reorganized so that regional offices will have far less autonomy.

Mr. Plaskovitis said that tax collectors had already begun using technology to crosscheck claims and that they had taken steps like asking luxury car dealerships for list of their clients. A lot of Greeks, he said, listed luxury cars as company cars, a practice that would be challenged in the future. “We do not believe you need a Porsche to sell Coca-Cola,” he said.

Soon, Mr. Plaskovitis said, people will see results. “In the coming weeks,” he said, “we are going to be closing down companies, restaurants and doctors’ offices because they have not paid taxes.”

But how fast progress will come is an open question. The changes have provoked protests and deep resentment in some circles. For instance, the president of the union for doctors who work in state hospitals, Stathis Tsoukalos, 60, calls the loss of a special tax status for his doctors wrongheaded and unfair. He contended that the special low tax rate was given to make up for the fact that doctors received very low pay.

Speaking of the doctors in the Kolonaki neighborhood who claimed small incomes, he said, they may have just opened their practices or bought real estate there with help from their parents.

Whether the country’s tax collectors are up to the task is also unclear. Many Greeks say tax collectors have a reputation for being among the easiest officials to bribe. Some say tax troubles are usually solved in a three way split: You pay a third of what you owe to the government, a third to the collector and a third remains in your pocket.

Froso Stavraki, who has been a tax collector for 27 years and is now a high-ranking official in the union, readily concedes that there is some corruption in the ranks. But she contends that the politicians never wanted toughness.

“The orders from above were to do everyday tax processing,” she said. “We were busy going over forms, checking on those who pay taxes, not those who didn’t.”

 

[singveld]

Greek debt spirals after Olympics

The Athens games burnt through billions of euros
Greece is facing a massive budget deficit as it tries to absorb the cost of the Olympic Games.
The expected 7bn euro ($8.6bn; £4.8bn) burden means the national deficit is set to hit 5.3% in 2004, said Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis.

He said the previous government was to blame, for concealing the extent of Greece's economic troubles.

"A large part of Olympic, social and other spending was not written up in the budget," he said.

"The real deficit was not recorded... The public debt exceeds even the most pessimistic of estimations."

Security costs

The Games is set to be the most expensive in the modern Olympics' 100-year history.

Not only did Athens have to sustain the usual cost of trying to outdo previous host cities.


The heightened fears following 9/11 meant that Athens was faced with a bill for security which was five times higher than that of Sydney in 2000.

In addition, much of the building work on facilities was only completed in a last-minute - and expensive - rush, in some cases just hours before the Games began.


The expected 5.3% budget shortfall is almost twice the 3% allowed by the European Union.

Total cumulative debt, Mr Karamanlis said, was as high as 112% of GDP or 184bn euros - or 50,000 euros for each Greek household.

Before March's election, the previous Socialist government had predicted a 1.2% deficit, with total debt of under 100% of GDP.

That was nothing short of deliberately misleading, he said.

"Social policy was done with borrowed cash, military spending did not show up on the budget, debts were created in secret," Mr Karamanlis said in a speech which traditionally sets the economic agenda for the year ahead.

But he said there was hope ahead.

Privatisation, new investment and pro-competitive laws were planned, but there was to be no shock treatment.

Mr Karamanlis promised "consultations, not surprise attacks - dialogue, not confrontation".

 

[singveld]

Olympics 'may cost Greece dear'

The Olympics provided a boost to Barcelona's economy
The 2004 Olympics has already given host nation Greece a significant economic boost - but experts have warned it may be in for a hard landing.
PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) warned soaring costs and budget overruns could leave the country with hefty debts.

The Games itself is estimated to result in a 3% budget deficit, PwC said.

Operating costs of running the games have soared from 500m euros to 2bn - while reports claim the total cost of Olympic spending is near 10bn euros.

With the host nation responsible for infrastructure projects linked to the Games - such as the Olympic Village housing and new transport links - the Greek government's budget for the Games has ballooned from 2.5bn euros to 4.6bn euros.

Deficit doubles

But, PwC says that even this estimate may still be too low as the newly elected government has accused the previous administration of "losing control" of Olympic spending.

In fact, some costs have not even been included on the Olympic bill, PwC added.

Up to 1.3bn euros for transport improvements and the 600m euro athletes' village have been excluded - the latter because it is being built by the Workers Housing Organisation and will be sold off to low-income families after the Games.

With most activity and expenditure on the event concentrated in 2003-2004, the government's budget deficit has more than doubled since 2002, the study adds.
The extensive media exposure ... may enhance the reputation of Athens as an attractive business centre further attracting new investment and trade

Official figures show the 2002 deficit was just 1.4% of gross domestic product (GDP), but a year later this had risen to 3.2% of GDP - way above EU limits and sharply higher than the country's original 0.9% target.


EU forecasts suggest the figure will remain the same in 2004 before dipping back to 2.8% a year later.

"But there are clearly risks that the deficit could remain above 3% of GDP if the economy slows down more rapidly after the Olympics, or if public spending growth exceeds plans, as has tended to be the case in recent years," report author Lloyd Barton warned.

One country to suffer as a result of significant public spending on hosting the Olympics is Canada.

The Montreal Olympics were financed almost entirely out of the city's coffers - and as result its taxpayers are still paying a supplementary tax on tobacco that is not expected to pay off the Olympic deficit until 2005/06.

However the report is not all grim reading.


Not only should Athens benefit from the hundreds of added visitors - competitors and tourists alike - and the cash they will spend, but it will also benefit from added investment.

Improved housing, transport and communications links are just one bonus.

Mr Barton also said that the Games may prove to be a draw for future investors.

"Olympic-related business contracts may help create longer-term business partnerships.

"The extensive media exposure ... may enhance the reputation of the city as an attractive business centre further attracting new investment and trade."


And the "stock of human capital" may be raised as employees are given extra training in new areas such as languages and telecommunications, he argued.

Already the event has seen the Greek economy outperform many EU rivals - with GDP growth at 4.7% compared to an average of just over 1% across the EU as a whole.

But this could drop off after the one-time hit of the Games this summer, leaving Greece with an Olympian hangover.


Mr Barton said this was the case for both the 1996 Atlanta Olympics and the Barcelona Olympics in 1992.

"Together with the expected decline in investment spending after the Games ... there is clearly a risk that Greek GDP growth will slow more rapidly than suggested by the current consensus of around 3% growth in 2005," he said.

And on a lighter note, hosting the Games could spur on Greece to a better-than-usual medal performance.

Using a number of calculations - including the size of a country's GDP, whether it was part of the Soviet bloc and average income levels - PwC expects Greece to up its medal count this year from 13 in the last Games at Sydney to 29 this time.

"We find that home country advantage is important and we would expect Greece's medal count to be well up on Sydney 2000," PwC said.

 

[refulgence]

It is a matter of time before the Greeks default on their sovereign bonds. In the meanwhile, the social and political unrest at home exact their toll on the populace.

 

[neddy]

It is a matter of time before the Greeks default on their sovereign bonds. In the meanwhile, the social and political unrest at home exact their toll on the populace.

It is important to know that the Greeks are still very much against the austerity measures - why are the people paying for the spendthrift government?

greece & many European nations are saddled with health & pension benefits ...which grow every year.

n their economy hasn't exactly been sexy - apart from olive oil & tourism. Seems the curse of the Olympics,..who will imagine during the fanfare in 2004 when they held the Olympics?

i noe, PAP will tell you - there i told you thats why we won't go down this route in the first place

I am not sure if PAP is doing better w/o health & pension? Luckily, this party has hardworking citizens and good economic wind to thanks for.

But Greece, Spain and Portugal - until the late 1970s-1980s - were run by dictators. Italy was heavily influenced by the extreme left, after dictatorship in 1945 until 1980s.

It is very important to ask, why are they qualified in the eurozone anyway?
Who give them the money to spend anyway?

Eg Portugal built white elephant soccer stadiums for the 2004 UEFA. They are still paying off the debts!

 

[neddy]

Greece: socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor?

Olli Rehn, the EU’s Economic Affairs Commissioner, has urged the Greek government to tighten its belt and make further cuts—-translation: slash wages! This is perhaps to be expected coming from a member of Finland’s Centre party, but it is deeply divisive for Europe. Unsurprisingly, a centre-right Commission holds centre-right economic views—views which are unchanged despite the lessons of the current financial and economic crisis.

Overspent or underfinanced?
Yes, Greece has a serious current government deficit about which it cooked the books (12.5% of GDP in contrast to 10% of GDP in the US). But the public stock of debt as a percentage of GDP is around 40% of GDP, well below the Eurozone norm. The problem in Greece has been wrongly portrayed as one of overspending. And although some Greek public sector expenditure is nepotistic and unnecessary, most of it goes to low-paid teachers, nurses and other public servants. The real problem lies elsewhere; namely, in a poor tax collection system allowing the rich to move money to tax shelters. Poor tax collection is greatly compounded by the collapse in government revenue resulting from recession, and these matters will not be put right overnight. Mr Papandreou must be given time if he is to bring about fundamental structural reform. He does not need the sort of labour unrest which will follow a massive wage squeeze.

 

[Char_Azn]

I think average Greek fails to notice the irony of the entire situation. The Country is already bankrupt coz of overspending yet they still expect the country to continue paying as much if not more money. Best part is they cripple the country's economy by going on strike cozing them to lose even more money and need to borrow even more.

I am not sure if PAP is doing better w/o health & pension? Luckily, this party has hardworking citizens and good economic wind to thanks for.

Say what you want about the PAP but 1 thing they do right is they are prudent and not overspend on annual budget. The fact that they are not overburden by the Welfare ponzi scheme that the Western powers have helps greatly. We of coz have different problems from the Greeks

 

[red amoeba]

I think average Greek fails to notice the irony of the entire situation. The Country is already bankrupt coz of overspending yet they still expect the country to continue paying as much if not more money. Best part is they cripple the country's economy by going on strike cozing them to lose even more money and need to borrow even more.



Say what you want about the PAP but 1 thing they do right is they are prudent and not overspend on annual budget. The fact that they are not overburden by the Welfare ponzi scheme that the Western powers have helps greatly. We of coz have different problems from the Greeks

we still have the pension & health care scheme...just ask those old civil servants.

its just that we have abolished them ...but we have a different set of problems...the government transfer the bulk of the burden to the citizens...the onus of looking oneself falls on oneself ~ which logically is right...but i ask then, why is this pension scheme thingy extended to MPs n senior civil servants?

 

[red amoeba]

I think average Greek fails to notice the irony of the entire situation. The Country is already bankrupt coz of overspending yet they still expect the country to continue paying as much if not more money. Best part is they cripple the country's economy by going on strike cozing them to lose even more money and need to borrow even more.



Say what you want about the PAP but 1 thing they do right is they are prudent and not overspend on annual budget. The fact that they are not overburden by the Welfare ponzi scheme that the Western powers have helps greatly. We of coz have different problems from the Greeks

No one likes to be stripped of the welfare thing...its like riding on a tiger for the government...if we look at Sweden & Nordic countries, they are pretty welfare as well but their economy is humming quite well.

yes, the price to pay ...high personal taxes.

 

[Char_Azn]

we still have the pension & health care scheme...just ask those old civil servants.

its just that we have abolished them ...but we have a different set of problems...the government transfer the bulk of the burden to the citizens...the onus of looking oneself falls on oneself ~ which logically is right...but i ask then, why is this pension scheme thingy extended to MPs n senior civil servants?

Pension scheme no more lah. Already abolished 16 years ago. The batch after LHL's gang no pension scheme. Current MPs like TPL newly elected opposition like CSM dun have. Chiam confirm have, not sure about Low

 

[red amoeba]

Pension scheme no more lah. Already abolished 16 years ago. The batch after LHL's gang no pension scheme. Current MPs like TPL newly elected opposition like CSM dun have. Chiam confirm have, not sure about Low

i said...Old civil servants

 

[Char_Azn]

i said...Old civil servants

Everything have cut off date what. They cut off all those years back. It would be unfair for the pple who have stayed and worked that long for their pension to just suddenly take it out. We have to remember that the pension also applies to older civil servants not just MPs and ministers. Unless they suddenly U-turn and reinstate the Pension scheme for their own then it's a different story.

 

[Char_Azn]

No one likes to be stripped of the welfare thing...its like riding on a tiger for the government...if we look at Sweden & Nordic countries, they are pretty welfare as well but their economy is humming quite well.

yes, the price to pay ...high personal taxes.

Nordic countries also have A LOT of natural resources and very small population. If you look at similar countries like UAE, Brunei also tiny population, lotsa Oil, they also quite welfare although to be fair the Nordic countries have the advantage of being right next to rich countries and their own economy are pretty advance

 

[red amoeba]

Nordic countries also have A LOT of natural resources and very small population. If you look at similar countries like UAE, Brunei also tiny population, lotsa Oil, they also quite welfare although to be fair the Nordic countries have the advantage of being right next to rich countries and their own economy are pretty advance

greece also have natural resources...

its just mismanagement of the economy...to say that social welfare cost the country's economy is not true.

 

[Char_Azn]

greece also have natural resources...

its just mismanagement of the economy...to say that social welfare cost the country's economy is not true.

Although it's not totally true, it's part of the equation. Best example still the US one. Current US official debt is $17T. Someone calculated that if you factor in stuff like Social Society and other welfare component, it's actually $211T. Read some article saying that $211T no count and it's stupid coz it's "future cost" basically worry about it in the future. Same goes for all Western Economy.

Anothe good example is the Western Welfare Ponzi scheme. Think the article I read was from the Economist. The guy was arguing that the welfare system is not a Ponzi Scheme and it's different coz somewhere along the line the Ponzi will run out of investors and the cheat will go bust coz no money to pay the initial investors anymore. The Welfare on the other hand will not happen coz they will always be a steady stream of money coming in coz it comes from taxation. The "investors" in this case is forced to keep feeding it, so not the same.

In SG, the government officially puts up bonds for CPF and call it a Debt. No bullshit about "future or not future". It's what they official owe us!!!!

 

[neddy]

I think average Greek fails to notice the irony of the entire situation. The Country is already bankrupt coz of overspending yet they still expect the country to continue paying as much if not more money. Best part is they cripple the country's economy by going on strike cozing them to lose even more money and need to borrow even more.



Say what you want about the PAP but 1 thing they do right is they are prudent and not overspend on annual budget. The fact that they are not overburden by the Welfare ponzi scheme that the Western powers have helps greatly. We of coz have different problems from the Greeks

If you run a budget surplus and this surplus is invested badly, eg buying Greek t bonds, then may as well spend the money wisely and create a ba;anced budget.

Yes! Welfare is not a dirty word!

The PAP government may be the best fiscal manager around, but they are wasting money by misallocating resources from those who need help. If PAP is a private company, I have nothing to say about no welfare, but it claims to run a first world country. Leaving behind the poor does not make a first world country.

It is also lazy to "save for a rainy day" when the ROI is so pitiful and inflation > 3%.
(Save for rainy day sound like a feel-good motherhood statement, esp when the govt has no idea what to do)

There is no need for Singapore to use USA as a model, who are as bankrupt as Greece. No sovereign state with such high debts have repaid their debts in history except for Germany.

World War I reparations refers to the payments and transfers of property and equipment that Germany was forced to make under the Treaty of Versailles (1919) following its defeat during World War I. Article 231 of the Treaty (the 'war guilt' clause) declared Germany and its allies responsible for all 'loss and damage' suffered by the Allies during the war and provided the basis for reparations.
In January 1921, the total sum due was decided by an Inter-Allied Reparations Commission and was set at 269 billion gold marks (the equivalent of around 100,000 tonnes of pure gold), about £13 billion or US$64 billion[SUP][Note 1][/SUP] ($785 billion in 2011),[SUP][Note 2][/SUP] a sum that many economists at the time deemed to be excessive.[SUP][1][/SUP] The yearly amount paid was reduced in 1924 and in 1929 the total sum to be paid was reduced by over 50%. Payments ceased when Adolf Hitler's National Socialist German Workers' Party took power in 1933, with about one-eighth of the initial reparations paid.[SUP][1][/SUP] The final payments were made on 4 October 2010,[SUP][2][/SUP] the twentieth anniversary of German reunification.[SUP][1][/SUP]

 

[red amoeba]

Although it's not totally true, it's part of the equation. Best example still the US one. Current US official debt is $17T. Someone calculated that if you factor in stuff like Social Society and other welfare component, it's actually $211T. Read some article saying that $211T no count and it's stupid coz it's "future cost" basically worry about it in the future. Same goes for all Western Economy.

Anothe good example is the Western Welfare Ponzi scheme. Think the article I read was from the Economist. The guy was arguing that the welfare system is not a Ponzi Scheme and it's different coz somewhere along the line the Ponzi will run out of investors and the cheat will go bust coz no money to pay the initial investors anymore. The Welfare on the other hand will not happen coz they will always be a steady stream of money coming in coz it comes from taxation. The "investors" in this case is forced to keep feeding it, so not the same.

In SG, the government officially puts up bonds for CPF and call it a Debt. No bullshit about "future or not future". It's what they official owe us!!!!

all these number games by economists about US debt is meaningless exercise....just ask yourself...so what if US owe 1zillion dollars....u still trade in US dollars...oil is still in US dollar, gold, metals all traded in US dollars...

Countries will still lap up US T notes like elixir from heaven...u seriously think US is going to raise her hand one day and say, folks i need help, i am broke..?

No...they just print more money, package more toxic debts, sell more ipads...

the fundamental principle of welfare is the state provides for the citizens....the second equation - where the $$ is coming from - from the economic gains & taxes...many countries neglect the economic gains part and like to tax more on the people to get this $$.

It is in a way Ponzi in the sense that, the young & abled pay for the old and disabled via taxes...n soon, you run out of the young & abled becos many fed up and don't want to work, therefore dun nid to pay....

the thing that these government completely forgot is that they need to crack their ass-sorry brains to get more from economic activities instead of keep taxing the people !