New Greece austerity move prompts strikes and protests

[singveld]

before the euro, greece interest rate is high, once in euro, it is cheap to borrow. so like a bargain hunter in singapore, they borrow like mad.

they borrow to buy designer handbags, cars, holidays, house etc

now they cannot pay back, they want lender to give them a haircut on loans, or to save them, totally write off their loan if not they will strikes and protests.

so i ask you, should europe pay for greece spending on designer goods, cars and holiday?

 

[red amoeba]

before the euro, greece interest rate is high, once in euro, it is cheap to borrow. so like a bargain hunter in singapore, they borrow like mad.

they borrow to buy designer handbags, cars, holidays, house etc

now they cannot pay back, they want lender to give them a haircut on loans, or to save them, totally write off their loan if not they will strikes and protests.

so i ask you, should europe pay for greece spending on designer goods, cars and holiday?

no choice ...thats the price to pay to join the 'gang' , sounds damm unfair...

but in reality...Greece is a small part of the global situation - aren't we all paying for US's housing crap?

 

[Char_Azn]

no choice ...thats the price to pay to join the 'gang' , sounds damm unfair...

but in reality...Greece is a small part of the global situation - aren't we all paying for US's housing crap?

Actually Greece problem is a fundamental one, the US housing crap just brought it to the surface. Same goes for all EU problems. They were in trouble before that but becoz economy was good, they could just keep delaying it. When you keep spending overbudget and borrow every year, it's only a matter of time when it comes to a head. It's not that other countries outside Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain isn't having any problems their debt is not that high that they have come to the Greek stage yet. Asian nations especially countries like SG or even MY to some extent doesn't feel as much impact coz we usually run on a surplus budget and have good backup reserves. To put it mildly, all the Ang Moh nations were basically running on money they don't have. It's like they swiping credit card like no tomorrow only realizing too late that the credit limit have been busted when U loss your job. All of them now are using tomorrow's money to save today!!!!

 

[neddy]

so i ask you, should europe pay for greece spending on designer goods, cars and holiday?

I thought the issue is government debts, not private debts.

For private debt, the borrower can just go bankrupt.

For government debt, they need to justify the loans from ECB. Ever since joining the Euro, Greece has been refurbishing their decaying historical buildings, building infrastructures, public transportation and spending big on welfare.

It is the same in the other PIIGS eg Portugal and Spain. There are excellent expressways, state-of-the-art trains and improvements to their historical quarters that are not there when I visited 7 years ago.

 

[neddy]

I thought the issue is government debts, not private debts.

For private debt, the borrower can just go bankrupt.

For government debt, they need to justify the loans from ECB. Ever since joining the Euro, Greece has been refurbishing their decaying historical buildings, building infrastructures, public transportation and spending big on welfare.

It is the same in the other PIIGS eg Portugal and Spain. There are excellent expressways, state-of-the-art trains and improvements to their historical quarters that are not there when I visited 7 years ago.

To put it mildly, all the Ang Moh nations were basically running on money they don't have. It's like they swiping credit card like no tomorrow only realizing too late that the credit limit have been busted when U loss your job. All of them now are using tomorrow's money to save today!!!!

It is too easy to generalise. I do not see Germany or Norway in trouble. In fact, Norway's sovereign fund is the best managed in the world. Even Australia under the Coalition govt runs surpluses and they even create a Future Fund.

Asian nations especially countries like SG or even MY to some extent doesn't feel as much impact coz we usually run on a surplus budget and have good backup reserves.

The question is where is this Singapore backup reserves? Have they been spent by the Americans & Europeans?
Everything look fine on paper.

 

[Char_Azn]

It is too easy to generalise. I do not see Germany or Norway in trouble. In fact, Norway's sovereign fund is the best managed in the world. Even Australia under the Coalition govt runs surpluses and they even create a Future Fund.



The question is where is this Singapore backup reserves? Have they been spent by the Americans & Europeans?
Everything look fine on paper.

FYI Germany have 80% GDP debt although it seems SG debt is higher, SG debt is totally internal which is different from Germany. Norway's SWF is funded by OIL and Gas!!!! Just to put it into perspective, SG SWF value is 2nd only to China for SWF that does not depend on Oil and Gas. The value of TH alone is higher then Australia's future fund let alone TH + GIC. And guess Australia have something call Natural Resource including Uranium!!!

As for GIC's exposure to Europe, 28%

http://www.gic.com.sg/global-reach/our-investments

 

[neddy]

FYI Germany have 80% GDP debt although it seems SG debt is higher, SG debt is totally internal which is different from Germany. Norway's SWF is funded by OIL and Gas!!!! Just to put it into perspective, SG SWF value is 2nd only to China for SWF that does not depend on Oil and Gas. The value of TH alone is higher then Australia's future fund let alone TH + GIC. And guess Australia have something call Natural Resource including Uranium!!!

As for GIC's exposure to Europe, 28%

http://www.gic.com.sg/global-reach/our-investments

Thanks for the info.

Australia does not have SWF because the current govt like to spend future money.
Uranium is best left in the ground. It is REAL assets, I don't trust paper money.

I do wonder what is the cost of Singapore internally financed debts.

Greece going into partial default soon. I bet my Santorini tour on it.
Some of their bond maturing. O$P$

I wonder what are the rich Greek mafia doing to save their cuntry? Probably not much - because they are ... well .... Greeks!

 

[singveld]

both private and gov borrow too much. both are bust.

I thought the issue is government debts, not private debts.

For private debt, the borrower can just go bankrupt.

For government debt, they need to justify the loans from ECB. Ever since joining the Euro, Greece has been refurbishing their decaying historical buildings, building infrastructures, public transportation and spending big on welfare.

It is the same in the other PIIGS eg Portugal and Spain. There are excellent expressways, state-of-the-art trains and improvements to their historical quarters that are not there when I visited 7 years ago.

 

[singveld]

BRAND NEW NUMBERS: Here's Who Will Get Slammed If Greece Goes Bust

The latest signals out of Europe are very worrisome. The Papandreou government is being asked to cut more, and the troika, today, has a teleconferece with Greek finance minister Evangelos Venizelos, to help determine whether Greece will receive its next tranche of loans.
Now the Bank for International Settlements has released its latest figures for Greece.
Since the last report, Japan France and Germany have cut their government debt exposure to Greece. With renewed concerns of a Greek default here's a look at countries with the biggest public debt exposure to Greece. In US dollars.

Spanish government debt exposure to Greece totals $502 million, Total lending exposure: $1.15 billion

Switzerland's government debt exposure to Greece totals $529 million, Total lending exposure: $3 billion

Belgian government debt exposure to Greece totals $1.9 billion, Total lending exposure: $10.5 billion

U.S. government debt exposure to Greece totals $1.94 billion, Total lending exposure: $8.7 billion

Italian government debt exposure to Greece totals $2.4 billion, Total lending exposure: $4.5 billion

UK government debt exposure to Greece totals $3.96 billion, Total lending exposure: $14.7 billion

French government debt exposure to Greece totals $13.4 billion, Total lending exposure: $56.94 billion

German government debt exposure to Greece totals $14.1 billion, Total lending exposure: $23.8 billion

Greek banks hold $62.8 billion in Greek debt

singapore total foreign reserve US $250 billion

 

[red amoeba]

FYI Germany have 80% GDP debt although it seems SG debt is higher, SG debt is totally internal which is different from Germany. Norway's SWF is funded by OIL and Gas!!!! Just to put it into perspective, SG SWF value is 2nd only to China for SWF that does not depend on Oil and Gas. The value of TH alone is higher then Australia's future fund let alone TH + GIC. And guess Australia have something call Natural Resource including Uranium!!!

As for GIC's exposure to Europe, 28%

http://www.gic.com.sg/global-reach/our-investments

actually this is a double-edged sword. Australia's future / reserve lies in the ground. - the price of which, can be dictated at future date...this is what i called, deep reserve assets..unless Australia disappear from surface of Earth, uranium, copper, iron, tin...whatever minerals, are for their disposal...

SG, our reserves are in $$ in accounts - which today are just a set of numbers, which can be decimated by wrong investment decisions, or wrong swing of the currency rates. They are in the form of investments, T bills or other securities which are dependent on survival of the banks.

in today's volatile environment, we are better off holding tangible assets - meaning if SG or TH actually go buy an oil field , gold mine etc. Or heck, even a thatch of rainforest offers greater security.

In Australia sense, if tomorrow they need more money, they just control the output of minerals or jack up the selling price...

 

[Char_Azn]

I do wonder what is the cost of Singapore internally financed debts.

SG debt stands at around USD$250B or SGD$300B, about the same as the same as our annual GDP. Why none of the economist bat an eyelid on SG debt is coz it's 100% internal, and it's almost entirely compose of CPF which is an obligation it needs to pay out anyway.

And like I said earlier, the difference between SG and the Western Nations is that SG officially puts that up as a debt, Ang Mohs don't which is also another problem they are facing. The expense keeps going up coz more pple retiring and less pple working to support them. That's what happens when no one keeps track of where the money is going.

The money MAS alone is handling is already close to that amt, if you factor in TH and GIC as well, your CPF money won't disappear anytime soon and won't suddenly run out of cash to give out. Our problem is a different and more personal one, where we do not have enough money for retirement, the need to push the retirement age up due to previous point and 20 yrs of CPF payout not enough coz pple are living longer.

 

[Char_Azn]

in today's volatile environment, we are better off holding tangible assets - meaning if SG or TH actually go buy an oil field , gold mine etc. Or heck, even a thatch of rainforest offers greater security.

Which brings about another problem. Many countries are wary of SWF investing in their country's resources and won't allow it. When a nation's pride is at stake common sense gets thrown out the window. Shin Corp is a good example. That's the problem with a country with no resources, and pple keep wondering why that's a big deal.

 

[neddy]

actually this is a double-edged sword. Australia's future / reserve lies in the ground. - the price of which, can be dictated at future date...this is what i called, deep reserve assets..unless Australia disappear from surface of Earth, uranium, copper, iron, tin...whatever minerals, are for their disposal...

SG, our reserves are in $$ in accounts - which today are just a set of numbers, which can be decimated by wrong investment decisions, or wrong swing of the currency rates. They are in the form of investments, T bills or other securities which are dependent on survival of the banks.

in today's volatile environment, we are better off holding tangible assets - meaning if SG or TH actually go buy an oil field , gold mine etc. Or heck, even a thatch of rainforest offers greater security.

In Australia sense, if tomorrow they need more money, they just control the output of minerals or jack up the selling price...

What I think

It is wise that underground reserves stay hidden in the ground. Meanwhile, above the ground, the Chinese are buying up farmland.
Australia's future is in agriculture to feed an overcrowded planet with less and less arable land. They are opening up the north WA for farming. What do you expect from lazy Aussies?

The trouble with $$ reserve is that - as long as it is not BACKED by real assets, the wealth will be eroded by money printing.

GREECE is going through a managed default now, by december we will know. And guess who will pay for it eventually? Since it is being decided by the "big spenders" - Europe & US of A. So, it will be the savers (China, Singapore, Japan ...) who will pay together with Greek poor and middleclass people.

 

[red amoeba]

What I think

It is wise that underground reserves stay hidden in the ground. Meanwhile, above the ground, the Chinese are buying up farmland.
Australia's future is in agriculture to feed an overcrowded planet with less and less arable land. They are opening up the north WA for farming. What do you expect from lazy Aussies?

The trouble with $$ reserve is that - as long as it is not BACKED by real assets, the wealth will be eroded by money printing.

GREECE is going through a managed default now, by december we will know. And guess who will pay for it eventually? Since it is being decided by the "big spenders" - Europe & US of A. So, it will be the savers (China, Singapore, Japan ...) who will pay together with Greek poor and middleclass people.

yes, yes....which then brings a question = Why the fuck r we saving ? When we are expected to bail out the spenders? CCB...might as well spend too...then all of us can hug together and die

LOL

 

[Char_Azn]

yes, yes....which then brings a question = Why the fuck r we saving ? When we are expected to bail out the spenders? CCB...might as well spend too...then all of us can hug together and die

LOL

Nah, they can save themselves once someone comes up with another way to create imaginary money. They've been doing that for years now

 

[neddy]

SG debt stands at around USD$250B or SGD$300B, about the same as the same as our annual GDP. Why none of the economist bat an eyelid on SG debt is coz it's 100% internal, and it's almost entirely compose of CPF which is an obligation it needs to pay out anyway.

The money MAS alone is handling is already close to that amt, if you factor in TH and GIC as well, your CPF money won't disappear anytime soon and won't suddenly run out of cash to give out. Our problem is a different and more personal one, where we do not have enough money for retirement, the need to push the retirement age up due to previous point and 20 yrs of CPF payout not enough coz pple are living longer.

Sure there is no demographic impact on getting debts continuously internally financed?

Why is there not enough money for retirement? CPF Interest Rate vs Inflation? CPF & Property financing?

Which brings about another problem. Many countries are wary of SWF investing in their country's resources and won't allow it. When a nation's pride is at stake common sense gets thrown out the window. Shin Corp is a good example. That's the problem with a country with no resources, and pple keep wondering why that's a big deal.

I believe the issue of national pride has to do with the emergence of the sovereign states, esp in the last century - Nothing we can do about it.

I have a 2 cent naive dream

Taking OZ as example.
Singapore SWF comes from the people's CPF money - If only there is a way - eg Set up CPF Investment Pte Ltd buying up Australian farmland for Singapore's food security & for investment, I think the Aussies will make less of a fuss than what China state enterprises are experiencing in buying up OZ farmland. India doing the same with African farms.

Also If the reserve have been spent acquiring the commodities that Singapore can sell later instead of propping up UBS. Remember, the demographics + population growth pay a part in commodity price increases for the next few decades.

Look. Japan has been a big player in Aussie agriculture, buying up crops from wheat to ginger. Australia even come out with special wheat for their premium soba noodle a few years back. Right? Something for the Singapore govt to do rather than letting the angmos and UBS erode the Singapore reserves.

Remember history - Japan attacked Singapore in WWII over the commodities trade embargoes by the angmos.

 

[neddy]

Austerity Measures Sting Greek Public
Published September 26, 2011
Reuters

Greeks expressed their misery on Monday at the erosion of their daily lives by austerity measures demanded by international lenders in exchange for bailout funds, ahead of a key parliamentary vote on extra property tax.

Greece said last week it would deepen pension cuts, extend the painful property tax and put tens of thousands of workers on notice to secure new aid and save the nation from bankruptcy, causing more pain for an increasingly embittered electorate.

"The drip-drip torture cannot continue," Dimitris Lintzeris of the ruling socialist PASOK party said, adding he would vote for the change in the property tax on Tuesday but was not sure about approving further cuts.
"There will be more votes and for that I can't tell," Lintzeris told Reuters in an interview on Monday.

Greece is on the front line of the euro zone debt crisis and its population has endured several rounds of harsh belt-tightening over the past 1-1/2 years.
"It hurts a lot, our pockets are empty. We are cutting down on expenses every day," said 50-year-old postman Costas Apostolou after dropping off envelopes at the entrance of a building in central Athens.
"They have cut my salary by about 15 percent. Will these measures get us out of the crisis? I don't think so," said the father of one in Syntagma Square, the epicentre for protests against cuts and where bloody clashes took place in June.
This week transport and taxi unions plan to stage more strikes, causing commuter chaos, slowing down business and hitting Greek's important tourist trade. Big national strikes are planned by public and private sector unions in October.
"These transport strikes are unbearable. We all have problems, we shouldn't be taking it out on each other," said Maria, a 24-year-old teacher.

"EXPLODE, TAKE TO STREETS"
All Greeks are complaining about the effect of the cuts. Some say it's not fair, others blame the world banking system and some are making plans to get their money out of the country or emigrate to start a new life.

"It's very bad. We built our lives differently, with bank loans and cards. Now they are cutting our salaries, and business is dropping. How will we pay?," said Kyriaki Alexiou, a 50-year-old doctor, adding:

"This is not getting us anywhere. If they don't do something to fix this, people will be hungry. They will eventually explode and take to the streets."
The taxes, plus job and pension cuts, have helped push youth unemployment to 40 percent and hammered small business owners. Stocks and property are worth a fraction of their former value and Greeks worry about the effects of more cuts on the economy.
Conversation in Athens' restaurants, bars and down at the beach constantly comes back to default, recession and the strategy to deal with Greece's colossal 350-billion-euro debt. Television chat shows often descend into rows over austerity.

The country also remains bitterly divided between private sector workers who say a bloated state bureaucracy is strangling Greeks and public servants who say the biggest problems are political corruption and tax evasion.

 

[singveld]

Japan may consider being part of Greece bailout plan

Japanese shares have been hit hard by the ongoing debt crisis in European economies

Japan has said that it would consider being part of a global plan to help bailout Greece.

Finance minister, Jun Azumi, said eurozone countries needed to come up with a rational plan to ease global concerns.

Mr Azumi's comments come a day after the Nikkei 225 index fell to a two-and-a-half year low amid fears that the debt crisis may slow global growth.

However, on Tuesday, the Nikkei rose, giving further proof of volatility.

"If there is a scheme that is based on a firm process, involves a reasonable amount of money and could provide the world and markets with a sense of security regarding a Greek bailout, I would not rule out the possibility of Japan sharing some of the burden," Mr Azumi was quoted as saying by the Reuters news agency.



Analysts said Japan's willingness to consider sharing some of Greece's bailout burden stemmed from the fact that it wanted to ensure stability in the region.

Europe is a key market for Japanese exports and there are concerns that if a solution to the ongoing debt crisis is not found soon it may hurt growth and dent demand for Japanese goods.

"If the financial turmoil spread from Europe to the rest of the world, Japan will not be immune," Masaaki Kanno of JP Morgan told the BBC.

Growing uncertainty in Europe may also see investors flock to traditional safe havens such as the yen.

That may result in the Japanese currency strengthening even further against the US dollar and the euro.

A strong currency not only makes Japanese goods more expensive, but also hurts the profits of companies when they repatriate their foreign earnings back home.

At the same time, the ongoing crisis has resulted in sharp falls at the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

Mr Kanno added that if the falls continue, it could be detrimental for the Japan's economy.

"Japanese banks and insurance companies are big investors in stock markets and if the Nikkei continues to plunge, it will send the domestic financial system in turmoil."

Eurozone governments are in talks to discuss how best to stop the crisis spreading from Greece to the rest of the continent.

 

[red amoeba]

jus wondering how much sexposure does UBS, whom GIC is a major shareholder have with Greece....

 

[Char_Azn]

GIC has only about 6.5% share of UBS which constitute to about <5% of GIC's total asset(base on estimated GIC value of USD$250B(source from wikipedia) and investment of GIC -> UBS of around USD$10B) so the impact to GIC from UBS will not be that great. It's more likely the indirect impact from all it's combine investment exposure to the European or Greek economy that will affect GIC if it comes down to it. According to GIC site, their investment in Europe is 28% of total portfolio