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jesus is a false messiah ( this thread is not for the weak heart christains )

Conqueror

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Evolution ? What's Next ? Strings ?

to be ignorant is easy, to be informed is tedious.


Don't worry about the Christians. It's the Atheists who are wishful thinkers. :biggrin:

It is good thing that things have finally turn around for good (for the X'tains, of course). :wink:



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Psalm23

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The Jews, the 'chosen' people of God never consider Jesus to be a savior or messiah.

You are right in every Biblical sense! This was propheised in the OT that Jesus, the Saviour is to be rejected by his chosen people. That's why the Bible is so truth and that's one of the reasons why we believe the Bible. if only the Jews fully accept Jesus as their Messiah, then the Bible would be all but false.
 

Psalm23

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Matthew 27:46 Jesus (on the cross) said: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

This verse shows that Jesus was not prepared for the predestined God's plan to die and redeem mankind's sins. Or could it be that Jesus was reluctant on the cross and begged for begged to save him?

Or was the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ staged or plagiarized?

Three points for reader to ponder...

You have correctly quoted the verse but you has completely misunderstood the true meaning. When Jesus was on the cross, all the known sins of the past, the present, and the 'unknown' sins of the future were poured onto the Saviour. It's not the physical pains that Jesus has to go through (which He did willingly) but it was the weigh of the sins that gave Him untold mental and spiritual sufferings. How could the Son of God, the Man with absolute holiness was made to carry all these despicable sins, you can name all of these sins but they can never be complete because there are too many. Jesus carried each and every one of these. God, the Father, the First Person in the Trinity could not bear to see the 'dirt' that His beloved Son carried and got to turn away from Him! Fortunately, this is only for a short period while Jesus was on the cross and the resurrection of Jesus completed God's redemption for mankind.

Yes. the crucifixion of Jesus was 'staged' - by the Romans and the high priests whose authority and abuses were being challenged by Jesus but the real truth is that this was planned by God so that we can be redeemed. Satan has fallen in the trap and allowed the evil Romans and the high priests to carry out and stage the crucifixion.

Points for the unbelievers to ponder......
 

Toronto

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You are right in every Biblical sense! This was propheised in the OT that Jesus, the Saviour is to be rejected by his chosen people. That's why the Bible is so truth and that's one of the reasons why we believe the Bible. if only the Jews fully accept Jesus as their Messiah, then the Bible would be all but false.

Another one of your usual circular reasoning with distortion of context of God's Word in OT.

Isaiah 53: – “Who has believed our message? To whom will the Lord reveal His saving power? He was despised and rejected – a man of sorrows, acquainted with bitterest grief. We turned our backs on Him and looked the other way when He went by. He was despised, and we did not care.”


The Jewish sages teach that "whoever saves a single Jewish soul is considered as if he had saved an entire world." Isaiah 53 is about someone who dies for the sins of others. People may have seen Jesus die, but did anyone see him die as an atonement for the sins of others? No! (maybe in psalm23 wishful personal reasoning).

Only if you already accept the New Testament teaching that his death had a non-visible, spiritual significance can you than go back to Isaiah and say, "see - the Prophet predicted what I already believe." Isaiah 53, then, is in reality no "proof" at all, but rather a contrived confirmation for someone who has already chosen Christianity.


Jesus' own disciples didn't view Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. For example, after Peter identifies Jesus as the Messiah (Matt. 16:16), he is informed that Jesus will be killed (Matt. 16:21). His response: "God forbid it, lord! This shall never happen to you" (Mattew 16:22). See, also, Mark 9:31-32; Mark 16:10-11; John. 20:9. Even Jesus didn't see Isaiah 53 as crucial to his messianic claims - why else did he call the Jews children of the devil for not believing in him before the alleged resurrection (John 8:39-47)? And why did he later request that God "remove this cup from me" (Mark. 14:36) - didn't he know that a "removal of the cup" would violate the gentile understanding of Isaiah 53?

Mark 14:36 “Abba! Father, all things are possible for you! Remove this cup from me! But no, not what I want; rather, what you want.” (3 times)
Jesus begged God, His Father, to "let this cup pass from me" so to be saved.

Where is it indicated either in Isaiah 53 or anywhere else in OT that you must believe in this "Messiah" to get the benefits?

Chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13:
Look at the setting in which Isaiah 53 occurs. Earlier on in Isaiah, God had predicted exile and calamity for the Jewish people. Chapter 53, however, occurs in the midst of Isaiah's "Messages of Consolation", which tell of the restoration of Israel to a position of prominence and a vindication of their status as God's chosen people. In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as "oppressed without cause" (v.4) and "taken away" (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12).

Chapter 54 further elaborates upon the redemption which awaits the nation of Israel. Following immediately after chapter 53's promise of a reward for God's servant in return for all of its suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 describes an unequivocally joyous fate for the Jewish people. Speaking clearly of the Jewish people and their exalted status (even according to all Christian commentaries), chapter 54 ends as follows: "`This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication is from Me,' declares the Lord."

52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the Lord," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the Lird been revealed?" In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God's "arm" refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).


53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Luke. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Mattew 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Mattew. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Luke 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mark 14:1-2).
 

Toronto

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. God, the Father, the First Person in the Trinity could not bear to see the 'dirt' that His beloved Son carried and got to turn away from Him! Fortunately, this is only for a short period while Jesus was on the cross and the resurrection of Jesus completed God's redemption for mankind.

Points for the unbelievers to ponder......

Very obviously, this interpretation is consctructed in your own head. I cannot find such interpretation in the bible itself or other credible theology sources.

There are 3 likely possibilities:
1. Only God himself knows, are you God?
2. God has spoken to you? But very unlikely, in the history of christianity very few humans (like Paul) have actually seen God
3. You can read God's emotion? Then God is no longer a supreme being! You can be a very good fable writer


Most believers are actually personal God believers.
 

Toronto

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You have correctly quoted the verse but you has completely misunderstood the true meaning. When Jesus was on the cross, all the known sins of the past, the present, and the 'unknown' sins of the future were poured onto the Saviour..

Wow! Even the 'unknown' sins of future were poured onto the Saviour! I feel like reading another myth. That would mean all 'unknown' sins of believers and agnostics today were already redeemed 2000 years, so this contradicted you own perception the current world. The biblical doctrine of original sin also being contradicted!

You are a very imaginative worshipper of personal God.
 

Toronto

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How could the Son of God, the Man with absolute holiness was made to carry all these despicable sins, you can name all of these sins but they can never be complete because there are too many. Jesus carried each and every one of these.
It's not the physical pains that Jesus has to go through (which He did willingly)

Points for the unbelievers to ponder......

Willingly?

Mark 14:36 “Abba! Father, all things are possible for you! Remove this cup from me! But no, not what I want; rather, what you want.” (3 times)
Jesus begged God, His Father, to "let this cup pass from me" so to be saved.

Jesus was a reluctant saviour, my friend.
 
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Toronto

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Fortunately, this is only for a short period while Jesus was on the cross and the resurrection of Jesus completed God's redemption for mankind.


Points for the unbelievers to ponder......


Did Jesus resurrect in His flesh body or in His transfigured body?

Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 document that Jesus went into His transfigured
body.

His transfigured body, is that a true resurrection?

Can a transfigured body feel pain?
 

Toronto

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It's not the physical pains that Jesus has to go through (which He did willingly) but it was the weigh of the sins that gave Him untold mental and spiritual sufferings.

Luke 22:43 To strengthen Jesus, an Angel from Heaven appeared to Him.

Jesus got that strengthening courtesy just hours before cruxifixion.
 

Toronto

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Yes. the crucifixion of Jesus was 'staged' - by the Romans and the high priests whose authority and abuses were being challenged by Jesus but the real truth is that this was planned by God so that we can be redeemed. Satan has fallen in the trap and allowed the evil Romans and the high priests to carry out and stage the crucifixion.

Points for the unbelievers to ponder......

No, the cruxifixion was plagiarized by gospel maker after more than a century later.

Let examine the words "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" verbalised by Jesus Christ during his painful cruxificaxion.

A thousand year earlier, King David: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" in Psalm 22:1.
 

Toronto

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A second piece of plagiarism evidence:

Luke 23:46
Jesus cried out: "Father, into Thy hands I commend My spirit" and breathed His last.
vs

Psalm 31:5
Into Thine hands I commend my spirit
 

Toronto

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Jesus was not a blood descendent of King David, but appears a mere composite of King David’s poetry in Psalms(not psalms23).

Did these Gospel writers make up Jesus and put words in His mouth in a guise to fulfill prophesy?
 

Toronto

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During Jesus time there were numerous other movements going on at the same time with guys proclaiming to be the "messiah" and such in the same area with some of those performing miracles too.

The reasons Jesus message stood out and formed Christianity is because his followers did not die with him (stop preaching out of fear, move on in life , ect) but instead continued spreading the message throughout Europe and the Roman Empire. Some say it was the result of the Roman Empire legally "adopting" Christianity as it's religion in the 300's as the reason for it's success as well.
 

Toronto

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The Jews view Jesus as an ordinary Jewish man and preacher living during the Roman occupation of the Holy Land in the first century C.E. The Romans executed him - and also executed many other nationalistic and religious Jews - for speaking out against Roman authority and abuses.
 

Toronto

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After the death of Jesus, his followers - at the time a small sect of former Jews known as the Nazarenes - claimed he was the Messiah prophesied in Jewish texts and that he would soon return to fulfill the acts required of the Messiah. The majority of contemporary Jews rejected this belief.
 

Toronto

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Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine, the Son of God, or the Messiah prophesied in Jewish scriptures. He is seen as a "false messiah," meaning someone who claimed (or whose followers actually claimed for him) the mantle of the Messiah but who ultimately did not meet the requirements laid out in Jewish beliefs.
 
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