is Chee Soon Juan from PAP?

[cheepshootjuan]

GMS,

No one has disputed that SDP internal squabble caused lost of votes. However, Ling lost by a very large vote swing that must be explained by other factors, namely HIS OWN poor performance. His loss cannot be blamed entirely on the party conflicts.

Not forgetting Yaw S.L. himself said he hated Ling so much to the core, he had to vote PAP. I'm sure an internal party squabble would not cause to much dislike! It must be Ling, the man himself, partly to blame for his own downfall.

Secondly, what I'm disputing is that CSJ is the SOLE CAUSE to the squabble. If you believe that, and I trust you do not, you're just buying into PAP propaganda and hogwash. That was why i rebutted ramseth for pinning everything on CSJ. He keeps doing that again and again and again, he sounds like a torn up copy of PETIR magazine.

Chiam has much to blame for allowing the thing to escalate. He took unilateral actions, and bad mouthed SDP to the press on his own accord. He did not attempt to keep it under wraps at all, from my perspective. He also voluntarily resigned. It's like Ng Teck Siong who also voluntarily resigned from RP in 2009, and like Chiam, himself admitted it was voluntary. No one says he was ousted from RP. Why then do people say Chiam was ousted from SDP? Simple. PAP wants people to believe that story.

Phouse is correct. Some folk here are not telling the correct story, but only what PAP says.

every singaporeans knows that. why do u still believe the world is a square?

 

[Perspective]

When are you coming clean, cleareyes aka Hawkeye1819?

It's the same old when the PAP moe label doesn't stick, try the foreign stooge label, isn't it?

Unless people are blind, CSJ has lost his lecturer job decades ago. His private occupation is a political activist, no different from GMS' private occupation as a PC shop owner, or SL's job as a polytechical lecturer.

Are people saying he shouldn't hold a job? Are people saying he shouldn't meet foreigners in his job?

It was his inability to separate his job from his politician role that has been the bone of contention. Also, when people see CSJ's supporters sent to Europe/US for training, their eyes turned red with jealousy. These people actually wanted to join SDP but didn't out of personal reasons, like wife is in another party's CEC.

Talking about foreign connection, JBJ was inculcated by US Congressmen as the opposition and FS was asked by a US diplomat to contest the elections. Does it mean they are foreign stooges, years before the appearance of CSJ? JBJ was even more disruptive than CSJ who has never stepped into parliament. Btw, CSJ is ineligible to contest.

SDP slashing 5% from other parties is the most preposterous I have heard. If not for PAP's and ST's strategy of marking SDP and putting other parties on a pedestal, the latter would have done worse. It is the same reason one party has gone quiet pending the release of the electoral boundaries. I wonder if PAP will change target this time. hahaha

I don't see a need to stick on any "stooge" label since he and his does travel and network alot and it's all shown on the website. In any case I don't think CSJ is a "stooge" and I don't think there's anything wrong in making foreign friends. Whether Singaporeans can accept it, that's their issue and their perception won't come from me but the SDP's own website.

I can clearly say CSJ is immune to public criticism as it won't make a difference to his public support since he won't/can't run for election. However JBJ can't be more disruptive in the PAP's eyes compared to Chee since he didn't cause the PAP to mobilize national resources or tighten the laws around civil society neck.

You're not answering anything other than this. The 5% example was an example. There are perceptions that CSJ reduces the opposition's perception somewhat. That's their prerogative to think this way but my point is not to brush them as "PAP side".

 

[scroobal]

You spend your working hours finding or creating every conceivable excuse for Chee. You also have the uncontrollable habit that old man has of labelling people "liars", "dishonest" etc when they do not agree with you. Learn to engage in an appropriate manner.

None of us in this forum and all of opposition can't make a dent on Chee no matter what we think because the numbers are small. There are 2 things that will affect his performance at the polls

1) The PAP government and its vindictive nature
2) Chee's own conduct, his strategy and tactics

Chee from his school days has been an enigma. His classmates can't figure him out. The Govt took him out early in the game in view of his potential. The rest however has largely been his undoing.

Though he has been most critical and damaging to the PAP government, the PAP always had thick skin. As long as it did not damage their chances in the polls, they could not be bothered.

His folly was his covenant with the voters or the lack of it. Its a simple rule - you put your case before the voters and win them over. You do not put your case before the PAP or the foreign press, NGOs or anyone else without first getting the voters onside and keeping them onside. Forget the Chiam / Chee episode. Even when Chee was running the party, there has been massive boo boos - Uncle Yap trying to be the Plen without the knowledge of the CEC, the disparaging comments from SDP CEC after legal actions at the last GE.

To be kind, I would say that he is a human rights and as you put it a political activist but certainly not a politician. He is driven by principles but is not practical or effective. Politicians are never identified by principles, they are guided by ideology.

If Chee wakes up and decides to be a politician, I can assure you he will be a threat within a year. At the moment, the people that surround him and the SDP do not sound like politicians or appear to be one. They would however fit the mould of social agitators, activists and what is fad in the west amongst the young. One can clearly see the lack of coherency in terms of politics and the means to seek a seat in parliament. There is a reason why the SDP repeatedly performed badly compared to other opposition candidates in the polls.

I am however encouraged to hear that SDP is now serious about fighting the elections. The messages as of late is clearly aimed at those that have given up.

When are you coming clean, cleareyes aka Hawkeye1819?

It's the same old when the PAP moe label doesn't stick, try the foreign stooge label, isn't it?

Unless people are blind, CSJ has lost his lecturer job decades ago. His private occupation is a political activist, no different from GMS' private occupation as a PC shop owner, or SL's job as a polytechical lecturer.

Are people saying he shouldn't hold a job? Are people saying he shouldn't meet foreigners in his job?

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

I believe Chee has once said that he is not afraid of people accusing him of not being a good politician, as it means he has stuck to his own guns even if it cost him a drop in popularity. To him principles are important, and cannot be compromised.

As can be seen SDP is evolving over time, and they're becoming better politicians.

Not sure what you mean by "people around Chee" not being politicians but only social agitators. Those around Chee are involved in election planning and in the mock election exercise held last week. Those only interested in being activists tend NOT to be members, only supporters.

To be kind, I would say that he is a human rights and as you put it a political activist but certainly not a politician. He is driven by principles but is not practical or effective. Politicians are never identified by principles, they are guided by ideology.

If Chee wakes up and decides to be a politician, I can assure you he will be a threat within a year. At the moment, the people that surround him and the SDP do not sound like politicians or appear to be one. They would however fit the mould of social agitators, activists and what is fad in the west amongst the young. One can clearly see the lack of coherency in terms of politics and the means to seek a seat in parliament. There is a reason why the SDP repeatedly performed badly compared to other opposition candidates in the polls.

I am however encouraged to hear that SDP is now serious about fighting the elections. The messages as of late is clearly aimed at those that have given up.

 

[loudhailer]

His folly was his covenant with the voters or the lack of it. Its a simple rule - you put your case before the voters and win them over. You do not put your case before the PAP or the foreign press, NGOs or anyone else without first getting the voters onside and keeping them onside. Forget the Chiam / Chee episode. Even when Chee was running the party, there has been massive boo boos - Uncle Yap trying to be the Plen without the knowledge of the CEC, the disparaging comments from SDP CEC after legal actions at the last GE.

Did you just copy/paste large chunks of your posts from the old delphi forums?

 

[scroobal]

The swings was not slight, it was massive -12% for Cheo and record setting 26% for Ling. Many were surprised as incumbency always carries an advantage. If only Ling was affected, it can be reasonably argued that his thuggish rantings was the cause. However Cheo was also badly affected. They faced 2 unusually under-educated and poor profiled new candidates. Ong Ah Heng's background and grassroots contacts are in Anson and not Nee Soon.

The ground readings must have been very clear for the PAP to field not one but 2 Ah Bengs whose personalities would not even attract houseflies.

In 1991, Cheo(50.3%), Ling(51.4%) and Low(52.8%) won by the slimmest margins. In 1997, there were no confusion, a slight swing of the votes would have sent all 3 out of parliament, regardless of what happened.

 

[scroobal]

That is the part that I can reconcile with Chee - his principles. You see that in his books and that in his actions. The direct opposite is James Gomez who is a politician but whose principles are practically not existent and thus not seen favourably. Maybe a dose of both would have been good.

Helping in elections does not mean that they are politicians. Its how you address raise and address issues politically.

I believe Chee has once said that he is not afraid of people accusing him of not being a good politician, as it means he has stuck to his own guns even if it cost him a drop in popularity. To him principles are important, and cannot be compromised.

As can be seen SDP is evolving over time, and they're becoming better politicians.

Not sure what you mean by "people around Chee" not being politicians but only social agitators. Those around Chee are involved in election planning and in the mock election exercise held last week. Those only interested in being activists tend NOT to be members, only supporters.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Jufrie Mahmood I believe has raised Malay issues very well, and in my view qualifies as a good politician.

CSJ is too prominent. He should allow others to speak up and show their mettle, even if they stumble initially. That way, he won't be seen as the overarching voice/authority. It will be good for SDP overall for him not to be seen thus. A good reference point would be Sebastian teo/GMS combination, with Seb relaxing one corner a bit, and let GMS do his show for now.

The Young Democrats need more practice.

That is the part that I can reconcile with Chee - his principles. You see that in his books and that in his actions. The direct opposite is James Gomez who is a politician but whose principles are practically not existent and thus not seen favourably. Maybe a dose of both would have been good.

Helping in elections does not mean that they are politicians. Its how you address raise and address issues politically.

 

[cheepshootjuan]

1 question to Chee supporters.

Why is Chee running as a MP candidate if he has no public support and no future chances of getting elected????
Politicians exist so they can get elected into parliament and influence policy. This chee doesn't seem to care about getting elected by stupidly getting entangled in lawsuits and charges in court.

Why not just be a social activist?

that's his job. he's paid by secretive foreign legion to do singapore and all the opp political parties in.

 

[Ramseth]

There were also strange reasons why Dr. Chee was voted to replace Chiam after he resigned, since, in normal logical political wisdom, he should avoid taking up such post if he didn't want to be seen as the key person that "outsted" Chiam.

Chiam resigned as Sec. Gen. but not from party membership. He won his seat under the party ticket and must keep his membership in order to keep his seat. It was SDP under Chee who attempted to expel Chiam from the party and thereby precipitating a Potong Pasir by-election. PAP didn't even have to do anything and just smile and smirk. However, Chiam sured SDP for wrongful dismissal and won, and kept his seat until 1996 when Parliament was dissolved, then contested and won it again under SPP.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

SDP is surely walking on the electoral path again. Good for Singapore as a whole.

I have spoken to one activist before that it is only good for SDP to keep a group of people out of trouble so that they could be eligible to stand for elections. There is nothing wrong with self preservation if the longer path is to take on the electoral platform.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Ramseth]

SDP is surely walking on the electoral path again. Good for Singapore as a whole.

I doubt so. They put up a Vote SDP candidates' poster for their so-called pre-election rally, out of the 5, 2 or 3 of them are disqualified. What candidates? Vote who? Vote what?

 

[scroobal]

I agree about Jufrie. The guy knows his way around.

You may be right about Chee. Others should organise the party.

Jufrie Mahmood I believe has raised Malay issues very well, and in my view qualifies as a good politician.

CSJ is too prominent. He should allow others to speak up and show their mettle, even if they stumble initially. That way, he won't be seen as the overarching voice/authority. It will be good for SDP overall for him not to be seen thus. A good reference point would be Sebastian teo/GMS combination, with Seb relaxing one corner a bit, and let GMS do his show for now.

The Young Democrats need more practice.

 

[phouse3]

I predict there will be 3-4 parties in the left wing eventually. If it happened before GE, they could save themselves 5 years. So it is very disappointing not to see it happening yet.

The right wing is in a state of flux and proving difficult. Some want to be independent. Some want to be doyen. Some want to swing. Some cannot get along with others. They should look at themselves in the mirror before commenting on the left wing non-stop.

I believe in this GE, those parties contesting the left half of Singapore will do better than those contesting the right half, regardless of alliance.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

I doubt so. They put up a Vote SDP candidates' poster for their so-called pre-election rally, out of the 5, 2 or 3 of them are disqualified. What candidates? Vote who? Vote what?

It is a MOCK-UP.

 

[Perspective]

I doubt so. They put up a Vote SDP candidates' poster for their so-called pre-election rally, out of the 5, 2 or 3 of them are disqualified. What candidates? Vote who? Vote what?

You are both right and not. SDP won't be able to field many candidates but one GRC is suffice. Only CSJ, CSC, GA, JT and two or three more are not eligible, but the rest had at most one fine and enough to put at least one GRC.

Of course none of them are prominent faces, but the prominent faces will always be at "ringside". And if the rumour mill is true, they might have a couple of new very prominent faces soon.

 

[Perspective]

I predict there will be 3-4 parties in the left wing eventually. If it happened before GE, they could save themselves 5 years. So it is very disappointing not to see it happening yet.

The right wing is in a state of flux and proving difficult. Some want to be independent. Some want to be doyen. Some want to swing. Some cannot get along with others. They should look at themselves in the mirror before commenting on the left wing non-stop.

I believe in this GE, those parties contesting the left half of Singapore will do better than those contesting the right half, regardless of alliance.

First I think you need to get your definitions of left and right wing correct. Many who describe the present parties as left or right wing are not getting it correct. In reality no parties fits closely into the right or left mode. That is why the opposition has been unable to be one party. However I agree it is not so easy to define each party.

The general legacy of each party, in the view/opinion of each member who chooses to join their respective choices, are:

PAP - Good Governance / Track Record
WP - Branded / Credible
SDA - Opposition Unity / Chiam
SDP - Real Opposition / Courage
NSP - Most Liberal Internally
RP - Jeyaretnams' Works / Fresh

Let's not get into the debate of whether their view/opinion is accurate or justified but if you were to intercept any member of these parties and interview them, this is likely the answer you'll draw.

As you can see, none fit into left or right because they didn't join the party because it was left or right... or wrong.

 

[Perspective]

I agree about Jufrie. The guy knows his way around.

You may be right about Chee. Others should organise the party.

The rumour mill says SDP members are looking for a leader who can at least run for election. Otherwise, it's demoralising. Ideally he can co-steer SDP with Chee.

 

[cheepshootjuan]

He is driven by principles but is not practical or effective. Politicians are never identified by principles, they are guided by ideology.

u called some highly educated phd having "principles" when all he did was petty theft among other things like being branded a liar, cheat and a fraudster?

soon juan got the gift of gab. even a dead salted fish would be preached alive by him.

 

[cheepshootjuan]

SDP is surely walking on the electoral path again. Good for Singapore as a whole.

I have spoken to one activist before that it is only good for SDP to keep a group of people out of trouble so that they could be eligible to stand for elections. There is nothing wrong with self preservation if the longer path is to take on the electoral platform.

Goh Meng Seng

this is rather confusing. why many of their SDP activists prefer calling themselves as partyless. even that jail loving bird seelan also claims that he isn't a member. what's the rationale? some of them whom we saw very active and even had the cheek to act as their spokepersons have now deserted SDP and setting up their new political parties.

again, for what purposes?