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God My Healer.

Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
in religions, faith is a virtue.

in science, faith is a vice.


can you, as a defending or prosecuting lawyer, ask the judge to accept his reasoning for the accused' crimes in faith?
can a used car dealer ask you to accept his word that the 2nd car is in good condition in faith?
can you trust the pap govt that they will turn over a new leaf and support the local singaporean in faith?
can you trust a preacher that has zero science accomplishment to say that god exist and accept this in faith?

can you see where im coming from?
we can ask all sort of questions when it comes to buy cars, choose jobs, holiday packages etc.. but when it comes to religions, are all going to be zombie?

So if I am looking for best answers, I cannot have faith in something that requires faith because then it would mean this faith and having such a faith is not good, yet the other I should not have faith in because it acknowledges itself as a vice and not worthy in being a faith, then I don't get any answers, do I. It's a hobson's choice, isn't it?

Pardon me, but I do find it intriguing that you spent years in bible and churches, but cannot tell that faith in God and faith in men are different, and it is clearly stated. And even then, I may trust my lawyer, my insurance agent or the chicken rice seller that his rice is safe for consumption - otherwise I would have been dead since I stopped trusting them! And if I do not trust men when needed, how to operate in this world? That's exactly what I am doing re: my Christian faith - discern evidences.

Lastly, if men could be zombies, it would have been easier to be a Christian! Christians are still stumbling over sin all over the place all the time and only Jesus can save - you can't be a zombie to be one.
 
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fishbuff

Alfrescian
Loyal
So if I am looking for best answers, I cannot have faith in something that requires faith because then it would mean this faith and having such a faith is not good, yet the other I should not have faith in because it acknowledges itself as a vice and not worthy in being a faith, then I don't get any answers, do I. It's a hobson's choice, isn't it?

Pardon me, but I do find it intriguing that you spent years in bible and churches, but cannot tell that faith in God and faith in men are different, and it is clearly stated. And even then, I may trust my lawyer, my insurance agent or the chicken rice seller that his rice is safe for consumption - otherwise I would have been dead since I stopped trusting them! And if I do not trust men when needed, how to operate in this world? That's exactly what I am doing re: my Christian faith - discern evidences.

Lastly, if men could be zombies, it would have been easier to be a Christian! Christians are still stumbling over sin all over the place all the time and only Jesus can save - you can't be a zombie to be one.

like those creationists that justify their "scientific" findings and research, if i start off with an investigation with an ulterior intent to skew the findings and theories to an hidden entity or objective, that path of research is tainted, flawed, plagued with errors.

there are so many "science" out there trying to prove a 6000 years old earth, world flood and whatever you named it.

like all singaporeans, i spent 20 years ignoring all these facts and logics and live in bliss. so many of my peers are living on such basis, when i ask such questions, everyone is thumbing it down that religion cannot be discussed, explained, analyzed or changed. what dogma is this? not a single one can offer any logical explanation. "oh have faith in god." what kind of baloney is that? years after years... and i can tell you, that in singapore, the influence that christianity commanded is immense, far more than what atheism can handle. whole frigging society is manipulated by them.

Now i have the chances to come out and face the brutual truth, and that is, with the logic, reasonings, reputable scientific sources and facts, that point out that theism is fallible. Faith cannot be used to justify the existence of something like god, take the example of the dragon in the garage illustration; i can say there is a dragon in my garage, but it is invisible, it doesnt give out heat, no one can touch it, no one can feel it, no modern scientific instruments can say it exist in my garage, BUT IT IS THERE!!

faith? can you drive blind folded and have faith? why do you still see a doctor and get medicines if you have faith? did god fail to heal you? or maybe he didnt exist in the first place!

theism? even if i can settle for it, then why christianity? will an entity that create the whole universe and living organisms be so bloody petty that he need to nickpick with humans, exhibits all forms of human emotions with extreme jealously, hatred, envy and smite everyone and everything that doesnt please him? Based on that logic, if i have an IQ of 100000000, will i be going "waaahhh! people dont like me... or i dont like people.. i want to smite... waaaahhhh!!"

truth hurts and piercing to the eyes, minds and ears, right? get used to it... i faced my demons, and so should you to confront this.

ask these question;
- how do i know god exist beyond the bible?
- has the evidence should such existence?
- is my justification skewed and prejudiced?
- have i really face the truth?
- can i ask hard questions?

i spent so many years dusting these questions under the rugs, go to cell groups, singing lala songs... but until i face these question above, i can never ever be freed my mind..
 

fishbuff

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes FB , its a shame isnt it . I have also seen these things as you have mentioned and in fact i have contributed also to some people who went overseas to do God's work. A few of them tend to spend more than they should on themselves and their family but many are really really dedicated and use nearly all of the contributions to do the real work. I believe that we should try to be more discerning when we help so that our financial resources are really properly utilised but in the end these people who use or abuse the contributions will have to give an account God on what they used these for and how they used them.
Yes i have heard of sabbatical leave. My view of this is that for those who have worked really hard they do deserve it.
Their work is different from ours in that they actually have very little time off in a year. They work practically everyday. They have to prepare for Sunday services, oversee Admin work, solve congregation members' problems and issues ( Christians are humans too and got a lot of tai chi ). Members' issues would include physical, mental, emotional and spiritual problems.
Then they have all sorts of meetings including hmail stuff these days. Sometimes got disciplinary problems too.
These are a few of the things i know that they do and i am quite certain they have even more.
Sometimes they have to do weddings, wakes, funerals, baptisms and the list goes on. They have no overtime pay .
Being human too sometimes they will get discouraged , tired and fatigued especially when some things they do or dont do angers some party in the church.
Unfortunately church is like office . You have cliques, interest groups , politics etc etc so whatever view or position the pastor takes, he is going to have a group of unhappy and unsatisfied people.
No overtime money too.
So you can see that the really dedicated pastors, especially those who also have families to run can get burnt out.
The leave is for them to be refreshed and also to revisit the Bible and be ministered too.
You recall the story of Martha and Mary?
Martha worked hard , Mary spent time with Jesus and Jesus honoured Mary. So working
for God is important but spending time with Him is even more important, so i understand the need for the 1 year break.
The thing you see in Australia well if they did it in an open way and didnt lie or BS their way then maybe it is just a blessing for them.
Where is OZ are you?

im sure they have done well for their community but at least practise similar HR rules. however, it is inappropriate to use UK's HR benefits in singapore where most are working in shitty jobs with long hours, no OT pays and only have 2 weeks leave, and most of the congregation work in a volatile environment where one can get fired if they dont deliver. heck, none of the pastors do get performance review and it is accepted that they can get 10/10 mark. some of them preached atrociously; uninteresting, flat, boring and repetitive. if i do that in my presales job, my boss would have kicked me out long ago.


and another thing i want to add; WHO OWNS THE CHURCH?? that is a question i want to ask. i can register myself as a director of a non-profit organisation, then borrow to buy a building, then mobilise the church to pay for the mortgage thru' weekly tithes.. when the times come, building get sold off, who, then will own the building? the directory of the organization of course!
 

Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
like those creationists that justify their "scientific" findings and research, if i start off with an investigation with an ulterior intent to skew the findings and theories to an hidden entity or objective, that path of research is tainted, flawed, plagued with errors.

there are so many "science" out there trying to prove a 6000 years old earth, world flood and whatever you named it.

like all singaporeans, i spent 20 years ignoring all these facts and logics and live in bliss. so many of my peers are living on such basis, when i ask such questions, everyone is thumbing it down that religion cannot be discussed, explained, analyzed or changed. what dogma is this? not a single one can offer any logical explanation. "oh have faith in god." what kind of baloney is that? years after years... and i can tell you, that in singapore, the influence that christianity commanded is immense, far more than what atheism can handle. whole frigging society is manipulated by them.

Now i have the chances to come out and face the brutual truth, and that is, with the logic, reasonings, reputable scientific sources and facts, that point out that theism is fallible. Faith cannot be used to justify the existence of something like god, take the example of the dragon in the garage illustration; i can say there is a dragon in my garage, but it is invisible, it doesnt give out heat, no one can touch it, no one can feel it, no modern scientific instruments can say it exist in my garage, BUT IT IS THERE!!

faith? can you drive blind folded and have faith? why do you still see a doctor and get medicines if you have faith? did god fail to heal you? or maybe he didnt exist in the first place!

theism? even if i can settle for it, then why christianity? will an entity that create the whole universe and living organisms be so bloody petty that he need to nickpick with humans, exhibits all forms of human emotions with extreme jealously, hatred, envy and smite everyone and everything that doesnt please him? Based on that logic, if i have an IQ of 100000000, will i be going "waaahhh! people dont like me... or i dont like people.. i want to smite... waaaahhhh!!"

truth hurts and piercing to the eyes, minds and ears, right? get used to it... i faced my demons, and so should you to confront this.

ask these question;
- how do i know god exist beyond the bible?
- has the evidence should such existence?
- is my justification skewed and prejudiced?
- have i really face the truth?
- can i ask hard questions?

i spent so many years dusting these questions under the rugs, go to cell groups, singing lala songs... but until i face these question above, i can never ever be freed my mind..

- how do i know god exist beyond the bible?
I believe God has left early traces of His presence. The earliest evolved into the Jewish beliefs today. One don't bake a cake for nothing. One don't design a house for nothing. If God created man He must have a plan for them and get them to know Him.

- has the evidence should such existence?
I named what is called the Kalam Cosmological Argument - whatever that begins to exist has a cause, which means something cannot come out of nothing, uncaused. Till now, I do not know how I can be accused of being unrealistic, illogicial, lost in unrealism when my belief is, to me, only a mere a logical conclusion that something cannot appear uncaused.

- is my justification skewed and prejudiced?
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I believe what gives me a better alternative.

- have i really face the truth?
Yes.

- can i ask hard questions?
Yes. I did my own investigation.

- there are so many "science" out there trying to prove a 6000 years old earth
I am personally a young earth believer as well. I do think men if existed on earth for millions of years, made progress only in the last couple thousand of years, that automatically tells a sane person that the odds of this theory against probability is rather unrealistically skewed. If I have an electronic product that gives me 1 year warranty, starts/warms up only after 11 months and breaks down usually after 2 months of using, men would have no use for such an invention.

Did I stumble any question. No. You disagreeing is your own matter. Have I skipped or evaded any question. No. On the contrary, have you? You rebutted nothing. Other than your own doubts from experience (which I actually sympathise) and broadly/generally asserting (not exact words) that religious people were out of whack, out of line, out of zone - in fact I had to repeat my arguments based on the likewise repeat of some objections here and kept that to a minimum in order not to bore people. So in conclusion, there is no zombie, no brainwash, no "demon" - your latest label. As I said, do not pre-suppose others.

I spent many years as a buddhist and atheist. I was quite well-known among my friends for being an anti-Christian because those were the days where evangelistic movements in Singapore were rampant, and I enjoyed firing them. Ironically, deep in my heart, there were my own doubts as a buddhist and atheist - sounds like how you describe your own now, except a different religion. I could never understand while humans rebirthed according to buddhism, who administered that fairly. I have always liked reading up on dinosaurs, the big bang, ice age etc. Then one fine day, I became a deist - I can't any longer believe the world popped into being uncaused. Only after understanding Christianity, nearly all doubts are cleared. My previous experience attacking "dumbfounded" Christians years back spurred me to investigate the faith and study Christian Apologetics. So I say again, don't pre-suppose when you don't know others.

My mind was free after knowing what was behind this world. It might be an opposite encounter from yours, but do not pre-suppose others the same or generic.
 
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drifter

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
I have been repeating this same thing throughout the thread and say again that everything begins to exist has a cause and God did not begin to exist. One can trace a cause on all things that begin to exist until you reach the end which is the First Cause. Because something cannot come out of nothing, something has to had been existing in the first place and we call that the First Cause, which I think the best candidate is God. Again, everything begins to exist has a cause and God did not begin to exist because He is First Cause and not created, that is contradiction?



I do not know why this is a common objection because one can find the answer in the first few pages of the bible... humans were not created faulty! We don't blame a mother if a toddler throws food around inviting ants - and do we expect the mother to tackle the issue not to feed the child?



You can see how choice between good and evil can come without either and can still be called a choice. Sorry I can't. Evil is not an object by itself - it is a spoiled good. Just like a crack - it appears in bricks and walls. I can't give a crack to someone as a present.



In the beginning there were already the rules before creation. Death means spiritual death. Therefore, God doesn't send you to hell, you end up there because you made a choice and He respects your choice. My own belief is that hell is the default place, not heaven which God has to uplift you to, and hell is a place outside heaven where your spiritual embodiment if you reject God is being denied entry. There's nothing here to do with vanity.



Of course He knows, but your solution is odd. If God showed in the bible that He destroyed evil in that manner, you will be the first to complain as what you did. I don't know who is contradicting themselves.


1) " Because something cannot come out of nothing, something has to had been existing in the first place and we call that the First Cause, which I think the best candidate is God " demanding an absolute answer right now is much like asking a child to explain exactly how a rocket flies to the moon with complete technical details. the child does not know the answer but it doesn't mean he never will or never can. nor does it mean that if the child said, "god makes the rocket go to the moon" he'd be correct. as a race, we are still children; your question is just a little too far beyond us as yet. so my answer is that I accept that I am not all-knowing.
only through reason will we find the beautiful truth. imagination is great but it doesn't compare to reality.
the wonder and power of reality is so great i am a little saddened by those who think they already have the explanations for everything in a tidy package called God. :wink: and whats make you think the best candidate is good ? fo you have enough evidence beside refering to your storybook ? :wink: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence :wink:

2) " I do not know why this is a common objection because one can find the answer in the first few pages of the bible... humans were not created faulty! We don't blame a mother if a toddler throws food around inviting ants - and do we expect the mother to tackle the issue not to feed the child? " so how you want to compare your god with a mother ? nice try :wink: ..look , does your mother said she love you and at the same time will put you into hell if you disobey her ? since you want to compare a mother with your god ...are you being double standards in your arguement ? :wink:

3) read my questions again ...before you try to snake away talking about other things as usual again :wink:

4) " In the beginning there were already the rules before creation. Death means spiritual death. Therefore, God doesn't send you to hell, you end up there because you made a choice and He respects your choice " do you know what you are talking about pslam23 ? now you are trying very hard to paint your invisibleman so kind ..whahahaha ...So you really think that god would plant a bunch of bones in the earth to test your faith? either you're in denial or god has some serious self-esteem issues :wink: your gog really sound like PAP ...:wink: ERP is created for the ease for the road but at the same time we know that even with or without ERP the road will still be traffic jam ...well done ..religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet


5) " Of course He knows, but your solution is odd. If God showed in the bible that He destroyed evil in that manner, you will be the first to complain as what you did. I don't know who is contradicting themselves" . now you try to put words in me , whose complaining if your invisibleman destroyed evil in the first place ...if your worry we are complaining ? why he still want to fight satan ? :wink: again you dont use your brain to think ...that arguement is invaild :wink:
 

drifter

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
- how do i know god exist beyond the bible?
I believe God has left early traces of His presence. The earliest evolved into the Jewish beliefs today. One don't bake a cake for nothing. One don't design a house for nothing. If God created man He must have a plan for them and get them to know Him.

- has the evidence should such existence?
I named what is called the Kalam Cosmological Argument - whatever that begins to exist has a cause, which means something cannot come out of nothing, uncaused. Till now, I do not know how I can be accused of being unrealistic, illogicial, lost in unrealism when my belief is, to me, only a mere a logical conclusion that something cannot appear uncaused.

- is my justification skewed and prejudiced?
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I believe what gives me a better alternative.

- have i really face the truth?
Yes.

- can i ask hard questions?
Yes. I did my own investigation.

- there are so many "science" out there trying to prove a 6000 years old earth
I am personally a young earth believer as well. I do think men if existed on earth for millions of years, made progress only in the last couple thousand of years, that automatically tells a sane person that the odds of this theory against probability is rather unrealistically skewed. If I have an electronic product that gives me 1 year warranty, starts/warms up only after 11 months and breaks down usually after 2 months of using, men would have no use for such an invention.

Did I stumble any question. No. You disagreeing is your own matter. Have I skipped or evaded any question. No. On the contrary, have you? You rebutted nothing. Other than your own doubts from experience (which I actually sympathise) and broadly/generally asserting (not exact words) that religious people were out of whack, out of line, out of zone - in fact I had to repeat my arguments based on the likewise repeat of some objections here and kept that to a minimum in order not to bore people. So in conclusion, there is no zombie, no brainwash, no "demon" - your latest label. As I said, do not pre-suppose others.

I spent many years as a buddhist and atheist. I was quite well-known among my friends for being an anti-Christian because those were the days where evangelistic movements in Singapore were rampant, and I enjoyed firing them. Ironically, deep in my heart, there were my own doubts as a buddhist and atheist - sounds like how you describe your own now, except a different religion. I could never understand while humans rebirthed according to buddhism, who administered that fairly. I have always liked reading up on dinosaurs, the big bang, ice age etc. Then one fine day, I became a deist - I can't any longer believe the world popped into being uncaused. Only after understanding Christianity, nearly all doubts are cleared. My previous experience attacking "dumbfounded" Christians years back spurred me to investigate the faith and study Christian Apologetics. So I say again, don't pre-suppose when you don't know others.

My mind was free after knowing what was behind this world. It might be an opposite encounter from yours, but do not pre-suppose others the same or generic.

you use alot of the word " i believe " which means it might not be true ...just " you believe " does not mean its really true ..thankyou once again for showing us your blind faith :wink:
 
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Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
1) I have never said that if it is clear that everything can be explained without a God, a First Cause, why men are exceptional etc. many of which have been raised by me, then I would still not change my mind.

2) Here we are talking about blaming God for men's evils vs mother to blame for a naughty child. If you are not a parent, I would at least expect you to understand what it feels like because we are always surrounded by them, but perhaps I was wrong and you are in your own world. Here, nothing to do with the hell question, which is #4.

3) I have left no stone unturned and covered everything, that is far from snaking - I can't say the same for your motherhood responses. Kindly do not hoodwink those who have not followed everything in this thread.

4) Kindly give a rebuttal, even if you want to use an analogy and ERP in this case, something that can connect. You accuse me of "nice try", "talking about other things", and do the same? I can't connect God's choice for a person to ERP not affecting road jams. Belief in God leads to different results, while you yourself said ERP leads to the same road jams, so what is your point. You even got your respondee wrong. It does expose your resistance to reading and thinking through the issues.

5) Didn't you say God is to blame for men's evils. There is nothing to stop you from saying God is to blame for fallen angels' evils either. Who put words into your mouth.

6) Who gave you a dictionary that says belief is blind faith and faith is not? Every individual makes a choice to accept God, but it is odd to infer that if I believe someone or something, it has to be blind. It's the same argument that fishbuff gave, but belief or faith leads to positive reaction and it is rather ludicrous and paradoxic to say that faith is a vice which is like saying you don't believe anything in this world yet you derive positive reactions from it, or that your belief leads to not believing it, or the best proof of believing is disbelieving.
 

drifter

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
1) I have never said that if it is clear that everything can be explained without a God, a First Cause, why men are exceptional etc. many of which have been raised by me, then I would still not change my mind.

2) Here we are talking about blaming God for men's evils vs mother to blame for a naughty child. If you are not a parent, I would at least expect you to understand what it feels like because we are always surrounded by them, but perhaps I was wrong and you are in your own world. Here, nothing to do with the hell question, which is #4.

3) I have left no stone unturned and covered everything, that is far from snaking - I can't say the same for your motherhood responses. Kindly do not hoodwink those who have not followed everything in this thread.

4) Kindly give a rebuttal, even if you want to use an analogy and ERP in this case, something that can connect. You accuse me of "nice try", "talking about other things", and do the same? I can't connect God's choice for a person to ERP not affecting road jams. Belief in God leads to different results, while you yourself said ERP leads to the same road jams, so what is your point. You even got your respondee wrong. It does expose your resistance to reading and thinking through the issues.

5) Didn't you say God is to blame for men's evils. There is nothing to stop you from saying God is to blame for fallen angels' evils either. Who put words into your mouth.

6) Who gave you a dictionary that says belief is blind faith and faith is not? Every individual makes a choice to accept God, but it is odd to infer that if I believe someone or something, it has to be blind. It's the same argument that fishbuff gave, but belief or faith leads to positive reaction and it is rather ludicrous and paradoxic to say that faith is a vice which is like saying you don't believe anything in this world yet you derive positive reactions from it, or that your belief leads to not believing it, or the best proof of believing is disbelieving.


1) what do you mean by this ? " something has to had been existing in the first place and we call that the First Cause, which I think the best candidate is God " .you think you already have the explanations for everything in that " first cause " in a tidy package called God ?

2) if you can call your invisibleman as " father " i dont know what you can do next :wink: . you are the one giving stupid example comparing a mother and your invisibleman by saying " We don't blame a mother if a toddler throws food around inviting ants - and do we expect the mother to tackle the issue not to feed the child " . and now you start to trun the table around ? serpent , its time you repent :wink:

3) " I have left no stone unturned and covered everything that is far from snaking " ...far from snaking ? my ass !!! everytime i throw a question at you you will try to compare apples with oranges ...wtf ...if that if not snaking i dont know what is :wink:

4) " Belief in God leads to different results, while you yourself said ERP leads to the same road jams, so what is your point " theres only one result for beliving in the invisibleman ...which is delusion :wink:..

5) " Didn't you say God is to blame for men's evils. There is nothing to stop you from saying God is to blame for fallen angels' evils either. Who put words into your mouth " ....hello ???? its your fucking story that says god is great in every way and he created human ....so should why blame your invisibleman ? is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is not omnipotent. is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. is he both able and willing? then whence cometh evil? is he neither able nor willing ( please chose one :wink: ) ? Then why call him God?

6) both belief and faith is just based on trust alone ... i can't convince a believer of anything , for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe.
theres no choice in accepting your invisibleman ...if theres a free choice why would your invisibleman punish those who dont believe in him by sending him or her to hell ? you call that free choice ? we call it installing fear to control human thoughts . its not that i dont believe anything in this world , as i say many times ...we must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes ...extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence ..in your case you provide none ..all you do is just quotes from a storybook ...:wink:



PS: your invisibleman created by a human does three things quite effectively: Divides people, Controls people, Deludes people .
 
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Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
I am fishing out lesser and lesser meat from one post after another, and if you are not offering much thought but write whatever comes to your mind and after minus-ing areas where if I respond I will be repeating myself, I have only these to say.

5) In a previous post (the only repeat I will do here), I said others can point to a choice without more than one option - I cannot. It is one thing to think illogically, it is another to act illogically. You can think illogically, you can act wrongly but not illogically. So when we say God is omnipotent it doesn't mean He can do everything including the illogical. Hebrews 6:13 says that God cannot lie. That shows there are things God cannot do. God cannot create a choice with only one option. You can stump God with questions like "is green square or round" or "are there 5 kilometres in a telephone" - does that mean He is not omnipotent? In short, what God can do is what power can do, not something illogical or nonsensical.

6) It is illogical to deduce that choices lead to the same results. That would not be choice - there isn't even a word I can find for that.
 

fishbuff

Alfrescian
Loyal
- how do i know god exist beyond the bible?
I believe God has left early traces of His presence. The earliest evolved into the Jewish beliefs today. One don't bake a cake for nothing. One don't design a house for nothing. If God created man He must have a plan for them and get them to know Him.

- has the evidence should such existence?
I named what is called the Kalam Cosmological Argument - whatever that begins to exist has a cause, which means something cannot come out of nothing, uncaused. Till now, I do not know how I can be accused of being unrealistic, illogicial, lost in unrealism when my belief is, to me, only a mere a logical conclusion that something cannot appear uncaused.

- is my justification skewed and prejudiced?
I don't claim to have all the answers, but I believe what gives me a better alternative.

- have i really face the truth?
Yes.

- can i ask hard questions?
Yes. I did my own investigation.

- there are so many "science" out there trying to prove a 6000 years old earth
I am personally a young earth believer as well. I do think men if existed on earth for millions of years, made progress only in the last couple thousand of years, that automatically tells a sane person that the odds of this theory against probability is rather unrealistically skewed. If I have an electronic product that gives me 1 year warranty, starts/warms up only after 11 months and breaks down usually after 2 months of using, men would have no use for such an invention.

Did I stumble any question. No. You disagreeing is your own matter. Have I skipped or evaded any question. No. On the contrary, have you? You rebutted nothing. Other than your own doubts from experience (which I actually sympathise) and broadly/generally asserting (not exact words) that religious people were out of whack, out of line, out of zone - in fact I had to repeat my arguments based on the likewise repeat of some objections here and kept that to a minimum in order not to bore people. So in conclusion, there is no zombie, no brainwash, no "demon" - your latest label. As I said, do not pre-suppose others.

I spent many years as a buddhist and atheist. I was quite well-known among my friends for being an anti-Christian because those were the days where evangelistic movements in Singapore were rampant, and I enjoyed firing them. Ironically, deep in my heart, there were my own doubts as a buddhist and atheist - sounds like how you describe your own now, except a different religion. I could never understand while humans rebirthed according to buddhism, who administered that fairly. I have always liked reading up on dinosaurs, the big bang, ice age etc. Then one fine day, I became a deist - I can't any longer believe the world popped into being uncaused. Only after understanding Christianity, nearly all doubts are cleared. My previous experience attacking "dumbfounded" Christians years back spurred me to investigate the faith and study Christian Apologetics. So I say again, don't pre-suppose when you don't know others.

My mind was free after knowing what was behind this world. It might be an opposite encounter from yours, but do not pre-suppose others the same or generic.

as carl sagan said; "extraordinary claims will require extraordinary evidences."

no sane or decent universities in the world will sanction any of their scientists on a young earth creationism. what you have from people like ken miller and those cmi.org are pseudo-science.. the facts and findings are all influenced and biased. Kalam cosmological argument? give me a break, use something more modern like inflation, super gravity, string etc... why use a medieval argument?


alright, so i assume you have "gone thru" a selection process of why you want to believe in christianity? which version, you didnt mention.. anglican, baptist, psybertain, catholic, penecostal, 7 days, mormon, JH... what was your selection criteria? is it arianism, gnostics, or some early christian faith that got squashed by the catholic church?

so many faith, so many beliefs, so many pratices.... in science, if there is a law of gravity, THERE IS ONE! no ambiguity, no difference, no abstract. it is clear solid theory that is demostratable again and again.

being anti-christian is different from being anti-religion. anti-christian means that you are already believing something else that is unsubstantiated, but then you decide to hop over to another boat of belief. so, out from the frying pan into the fire.

However, being anti-religions means we go again any beliefs that didnt subject to rigorous scrutiny or reasons. Im sure the current religion you have give you comfort, that is ok, im cool with it. What i really want to demostrate here is to the young and logical readers that, USE YOUR reasonings before getting into the religions bandwagons!

remember those marketing ploy; "oh god loves you.. believe jesus and you will be saved." i was young and naive, dragged in by my SSGT, went in and i found out it was a mad house, pastor blew on the microphone and people fall around. i look around in confusion. so there is 2 logic either; either i didnt get "slained" by the holy spirit or the whole git is fake! guess which one i will think. Oh, dont tell me,... you are evengalical or baptist or whatever magiggy faction or sect and you dont speak in tongue. then comes all the craps; "you must give 10% tithes, you must follow jesus,, if you dont disown your family, you cannot follow jesus, you cannot follow, you are considered lukewarm, and if you are considered lukewarm. god will spit you out" or "lord,lord, we cast demons and heal in your name, why cant we go in? oh depart from me, you hypocrites"..


shit! shit! i got into deep shit! why didnt tell me all these conditions and expectation and sacrifices before hand?? presales is nicey nicy but tech support sucks!! how many time did we get scammed into telephone, mobile and whatever not in the streets that you have nice brochures but shitty services. by then, i have to deprogram out.

i dont enjoy firing off at believers, frankly i let sleeping dogs lies, but i got a med student that blast everything under the sun except the bible. i bring up case of evolving medical history and knowledge from Claudius Galen to leonardo da vinci to Versalius to william harvey. He failed to grasp the concept, just laughing histerically constantly at my illustration and explanation. Now that is.... DELLUSION!

but what you have presented here is something i love to do, i would like to rattle my brain come up logics and facts to rebuke your claims. Please keep them coming....
 
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Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
as carl sagan said; "extraordinary claims will require extraordinary evidences."

Theoretically that is correct. However, what constitutes extraordinary evidence is subjective. Skeptics will often ask for scientific evidence of Jesus rising from the dead. That is impossible since scientific methods requires observation or experiment of repetitive events and this cannot be applied to a one-off event that occurred in an unreachable 2,000 years ago. Skeptics know this and that is why they ask for it so when the Christian cannot produce this, they feel victorious. At the end of the day, I see a book and infer to a writer, that isn't anything extraordinary. On the other hand, Alexander the Great conquered the world in a few years is extraordinary feat, yet nobody asks for extraordinary evidence.

no sane or decent universities in the world will sanction any of their scientists on a young earth creationism. what you have from people like ken miller and those cmi.org are pseudo-science.. the facts and findings are all influenced and biased. Kalam cosmological argument? give me a break, use something more modern like inflation, super gravity, string etc... why use a medieval argument?

What has being modern got to do with the validity of arguments that have not been universally disapproved. I am not running a fashion show. This sounds like a red herring to me.

alright, so i assume you have "gone thru" a selection process of why you want to believe in christianity? which version, you didnt mention.. anglican, baptist, psybertain, catholic, penecostal, 7 days, mormon, JH... what was your selection criteria? is it arianism, gnostics, or some early christian faith that got squashed by the catholic church? so many faith, so many beliefs, so many pratices.... in science, if there is a law of gravity, THERE IS ONE! no ambiguity, no difference, no abstract. it is clear solid theory that is demostratable again and again.

I am glad that there is one debate with slightly better progress in this thread. I am an evangelical Christian and many of the denominations you stated are evangelical denominations and teach about the same things. Christianity isn't about long scrolls of teachings on what to do. It is about the message of Christ and salvation. There are different views on specifics but not divisive views. Except that Mormonism is no Christianity. Next, the statement that science is straightforward is too absolute. There are people who feel that gravity should be measured by mass, some more complex minds feel that gravity should be measured after taking gravitational counter pull of the sun and other planets. On the contrary, science is forced into the curriculum, while churches can have different denominations. Who says religion has less freedom?

being anti-christian is different from being anti-religion. anti-christian means that you are already believing something else that is unsubstantiated, but then you decide to hop over to another boat of belief. so, out from the frying pan into the fire. However, being anti-religions means we go again any beliefs that didnt subject to rigorous scrutiny or reasons. Im sure the current religion you have give you comfort, that is ok, im cool with it. What i really want to demostrate here is to the young and logical readers that, USE YOUR reasonings before getting into the religions bandwagons!

You are correct that anti-Christianity is different from anti-religion, but if you recall, I did mention that I was an atheist and also later a deist. Perhaps you missed that out. Deism is hardly considered a religion - you don't worship a creator although you are considered a believer in ID (Intelligent Design).

remember those marketing ploy; "oh god loves you.. believe jesus and you will be saved." i was young and naive, dragged in by my SSGT, went in and i found out it was a mad house, pastor blew on the microphone and people fall around. i look around in confusion. so there is 2 logic either; either i didnt get "slained" by the holy spirit or the whole git is fake! guess which one i will think. Oh, dont tell me,... you are evengalical or baptist or whatever magiggy faction or sect and you dont speak in tongue. then comes all the craps; "you must give 10% tithes, you must follow jesus,, if you dont disown your family, you cannot follow jesus, you cannot follow, you are considered lukewarm, and if you are considered lukewarm. god will spit you out" or "lord,lord, we cast demons and heal in your name, why cant we go in? oh depart from me, you hypocrites"..
shit! shit! i got into deep shit! why didnt tell me all these conditions and expectation and sacrifices before hand?? presales is nicey nicy but tech support sucks!! how many time did we get scammed into telephone, mobile and whatever not in the streets that you have nice brochures but shitty services. by then, i have to deprogram out.
i dont enjoy firing off at believers, frankly i let sleeping dogs lies, but i got a med student that blast everything under the sun except the bible. i bring up case of evolving medical history and knowledge from Claudius Galen to leonardo da vinci to Versalius to william harvey. He failed to grasp the concept, just laughing histerically constantly at my illustration and explanation. Now that is.... DELLUSION!
but what you have presented here is something i love to do, i would like to rattle my brain come up logics and facts to rebuke your claims. Please keep them coming....

Appreciate the sharing of your own experiences. Nothing to add here.
 

drifter

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
I am fishing out lesser and lesser meat from one post after another, and if you are not offering much thought but write whatever comes to your mind and after minus-ing areas where if I respond I will be repeating myself, I have only these to say.

5) In a previous post (the only repeat I will do here), I said others can point to a choice without more than one option - I cannot. It is one thing to think illogically, it is another to act illogically. You can think illogically, you can act wrongly but not illogically. So when we say God is omnipotent it doesn't mean He can do everything including the illogical. Hebrews 6:13 says that God cannot lie. That shows there are things God cannot do. God cannot create a choice with only one option. You can stump God with questions like "is green square or round" or "are there 5 kilometres in a telephone" - does that mean He is not omnipotent? In short, what God can do is what power can do, not something illogical or nonsensical.

6) It is illogical to deduce that choices lead to the same results. That would not be choice - there isn't even a word I can find for that.


" In short, what God can do is what power can do, not something illogical or nonsensical" . if staying inside a fish stomach alive for 3days according to your story book is not illogical or nonsensical ...i dont know what is :wink:
 

drifter

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
" Alexander the Great conquered the world in a few years is extraordinary feat, yet nobody asks for extraordinary evidence " .


..." i dont call Alexander the great who conquered the world is magical ...:wink: a talking snake and living in a fish stomach for 3days alive is call magical :wink: and its not a feat :wink: ..you have to tell the different between a possible feat and a fairy tales :wink: ...im not surprise if you cant tell the different :wink:
 

Perspective

Alfrescian
Loyal
Illogical is different from being hard-to-believe. Nonsensical can apply to either of or both. A guppy inside a whale is possible, a whale inside a guppy is illogical. You don't need English lessons.
 

Psalm23

Alfrescian
Loyal
as carl sagan said; "extraordinary claims will require extraordinary evidences."

.......so many faith, so many beliefs, so many pratices.... in science, if there is a law of gravity, THERE IS ONE! [/B]no ambiguity, no difference, no abstract. it is clear solid theory that is demostratable again and again......anti-religion. anti-christian means that you are already believing something else that is unsubstantiated, but then you decide to hop over to another boat of belief. so, out from the frying pan into the fire.[/B]

However, being anti-religions means we go again any beliefs that didnt subject to rigorous scrutiny or reasons. Im sure the current religion you have give you comfort, that is ok, im cool with it. What i really want to demostrate here is to the young and logical readers that, USE YOUR reasonings before getting into the religions bandwagons!........


The true believers of the God of the Bible will testify that: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [Ephesians 4:4-6]. True Christians are all Oneness in God (and there is not such thing a many or plenty). This is one of the most important doctrines of the Bible.

Also you said in science there is only one law and you give an example of gravity. You are dead wrong. The law of gravity as we know it is only applicable here in this earth. They are plenty laws of gravity depending on where you are: when you are in the outerspace, the law of gravity is different from the law of gravity of the earth, and the same goes if you go to the moon, Mars, or other planet. Even today, scientists are wondering and challenging whether the law that the says the speed of light is the fastest speed because some seem to have discovered that the law of the speed of light is not what we really understood. Thus there are many laws of light, and if that is so, there are also many laws of sounds, of colours, just about any physical matters. We are all so conditioned that there is only one law of gravity because no textbooks today tell you there are different laws and we know there are outside this earth.

You also wrong to say that there are many Christian practices. What practices! True believers like myself do not practicesany religious rites and frankly those so-called 'pracitces' are optional. There is only one that is commanded and that is Baptism. Other than this there is no other practices when it comes to Christianity. I know you will say how about breaking of bread, partaking of wine - these are optional in the sense that by doing these, they help us to understand what our Lord Jesus has gone through. The church that I am attending don't even do all these because they are simply outward appearance. The wonderful part of believing in the God of the Bible, our Living God, Lord Jesus is that we don't need to participate in all these (of course other than baptism and there is only one baptism.) Remember, our body is the temple of God and the practices that the true believers need to practise is to be more like Jesus and that requires our inner efforts rather than participating in ourward appearance which many religions are doing. When it comes to God, there is only One and this One is the God of the Bible, the Creator of the Universe.

God bless.

Psalm23
 
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drifter

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Illogical is different from being hard-to-believe. Nonsensical can apply to either of or both. A guppy inside a whale is possible, a whale inside a guppy is illogical. You don't need English lessons.

so a human staying alive for 3 days inside a fish is logical ? a talking snake is logical ? you need to check your brain :wink:
 

fishbuff

Alfrescian
Loyal
The true believers of the God of the Bible will testify that: There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [Ephesians 4:4-6]. True Christians are all Oneness in God (and there is not such thing a many or plenty). This is one of the most important doctrines of the Bible.

Also you said in science there is only one law and you give an example of gravity. You are dead wrong. The law of gravity as we know it is only applicable here in this earth. They are plenty laws of gravity depending on where you are: when you are in the outerspace, the law of gravity is different from the law of gravity of the earth, and the same goes if you go to the moon, Mars, or other planet. Even today, scientists are wondering and challenging whether the law that the says the speed of light is the fastest speed because some seem to have discovered that the law of the speed of light is not what we really understood. Thus there are many laws of light, and if that is so, there are also many laws of sounds, of colours, just about any physical matters. We are all so conditioned that there is only one law of gravity because no textbooks today tell you there are different laws and we know there are outside this earth.

You also wrong to say that there are many Christian practices. What practices! True believers like myself do not practicesany religious rites and frankly those so-called 'pracitces' are optional. There is only one that is commanded and that is Baptism. Other than this there is no other practices when it comes to Christianity. I know you will say how about breaking of bread, partaking of wine - these are optional in the sense that by doing these, they help us to understand what our Lord Jesus has gone through. The church that I am attending don't even do all these because they are simply outward appearance. The wonderful part of believing in the God of the Bible, our Living God, Lord Jesus is that we don't need to participate in all these (of course other than baptism and there is only one baptism.) Remember, our body is the temple of God and the practices that the true believers need to practise is to be more like Jesus and that requires our inner efforts rather than participating in ourward appearance which many religions are doing. When it comes to God, there is only One and this One is the God of the Bible, the Creator of the Universe.

God bless.

Psalm23

excellent, you have shown some logic and reasoning. Can please extend that reasoning to questions like;
- is there a remote chance that what i believe could,.. just maybe... man-made?
- what makes my religion the 100% absolute true and everything else false?
- does it make good sense to believe in an entity that cannot be scientifically proven, and maybe... just maybe, people have made things up.


are u really sure u know your own religion?
i cant believe you say about the remarks about one god, lord, faith etc.. you should read up know the nitty gritty between the various sects right from the start. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon, here's something for a start. come on. dont be an ignorant believer. about the origins of your bible, jesus, early christianity from the historical facts instead from the biblical stuffs.

i knew what is difference between baptist and pentacostal, calvinism and lutherism, not going to amenianism. catholicism and protestant. .. shall i go into the early sects of christianity and the various branches like arianism, marcion, agnostics etc which got snuffed out by irenaus and especially St augustine of hippo, who converted from medianieaism and start persecuting his old church group.

and not to mention just how similar christianity is to the hellenism philosophy, perhaps corrupted by it, or ...borrowed from the story of horus or mithra? but that is another story altogether to tell...

no breaking of bread in your church? that is heresy! your pastor is not doing his job! has he been adequately trained at SBC or is that a makeshift church in someone's volkswagen van??. if you want to be a christian, then stick to the word in the bible! (http://www.biblebasicsonline.com/english/Study11LifeinChrist/110305TheBreakingOfBread.html). no cherry-picking or buffet style. Gosh! modern day christians... cant do like the the oldies.. and dont profess your church is the real one. The catholic church IS the real one as it bears the linage right from the beginning from Peter! bloody heretic... if st augustine of hippo or pope innocent is still around today, he will have your hide.
 
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drifter

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
contradicting bible


1 ) War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

2 ) God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

3) Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

4) Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

5) Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

6) Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

7) How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

8) Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

9) Human vs. ghostly impregnation
ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

10 ) The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

11) Rabbits do not chew their cud
LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

"Gerah," the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated "chew the cud" in the KJV is more exactly "bring up the cud." Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that's that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.

12) Snails do not melt
PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

13) Fowl from waters or ground?
GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

14) Odd genetics
GEN 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.

15) The shape of the earth
ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

16) Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt
GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

17) Earth supported?
JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Heaven supported too
JOB 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

18) The hydrological cycle
ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

JOB 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

Storehouses are not part of the cycle

19) Order of creation
Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

Note that there are "days," "evenings," and "mornings" before the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim," which is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods." In this tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each step that "it was good."

The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)

20) How orderly were things created?
#1: Step-by-step. The only discrepancy is that there is no Sun or Moon or stars on the first three "days."
#2: God fixes things up as he goes. The first man is lonely, and is not satisfied with animals. God finally creates a woman for him. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

21 ) How satisfied with creation was he?
#1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.
#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

22) Moses' personality
NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."

23) Righteous live?
PSA 92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

ISA 57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."

24 ) ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."

25) Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."

26) Jesus' last words
MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

27 ) Years of famine
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;

28 ) Moved David to anger?
II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

29 ) The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.

30 ) God be seen?
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)

31 ) CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)

32 ) Tempts?
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)

33 ) Judas died how?
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)

34 ) Ascend to heaven
"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)

35 ) What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
Before the cock crow - MAT 26:34

Before the cock crow twice - MAR 14:30

36 ) How many times did the cock crow?
MAR 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.

37 ) How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
MAT 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
MAT 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
MAT 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
MAT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
MAT 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

LUK 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
LUK 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
LUK 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
LUK 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

38 ) Does every man sin?
1KI 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2CH 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

39 ) Who bought potter's field
ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

40 ) Who prophesied the potter's field?
MAT 27:9-10 (mentions Jeremy but no such verse in Jeremiah) is in Zechariah 11:12-13

41 ) Who bears guilt?
GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

42 ) Do you answer a fool?
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

43 ) How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
2SA 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2SA 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:

44) How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

45 ) Marriage?
Proverbs 18:22
1 Corinthians 7 (whole book. See 1,2,27,39,40)

46 ) Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

47 ) Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

(various traipsings)

48 ) How many apostles were in office between the resurrection and ascension?
1 Corinthians 15:5 (12)
MAT 27:3-5 (minus one from 12)
ACT 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection)

MAT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

49 ) Judging
1 Cor 2:15 "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:" (NIV)

1 Cor 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."

50 ) Good deeds
Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)

51) For or against?
MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(default is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(default is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(default is for)

52 ) Whom did they see at the tomb?
MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

53 ) God change?
MAL 3:6
JAS 1:17
1SA 15:29
JON 3:10
GEN 6:6

54 ) Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)
MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)

55 ) Who's sepulchers
ACT 7:16
GEN 23:17,18

56 ) Strong drink?
PRO 31:6,7
JOH 2:11-11

57 ) When second coming?
MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(See also 1TH 4:15-18)

58 ) Solomon's overseers
1KI 9:23 550
2CH 8:10 250

59 ) The mother of Abijah:
2CH 11:20 Maachah the daughter of Absalom

2CH 13:2 Michaiah the daughter of Uriel

60 ) When did Baasha die?
1KI 16:6-8 26th year of the reign of Asa

2CH 16:1 36th year of the reign of Asa

61 ) How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
2KI 8:26 22

2CH 22:2 42

62 ) What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
MAT 27:28 scarlet

JOH 19:2 purple

63 ) What did they give him to drink?
MAT 27:34 vinegar

MAR 15:23 wine with myrrh

64 ) How long was Jesus in the tomb?
Depends where you look; MAT 12:40 gives Jesus prophesying that he will spend "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth," and MAR 10:34 has "after three days (meta treis emeras) he will rise again." As far as I can see from a quick look, the prophecies have "after three days," but the post-Resurrection narratives have "on the third day."
 

fishbuff

Alfrescian
Loyal
Theoretically that is correct. However, what constitutes extraordinary evidence is subjective. Skeptics will often ask for scientific evidence of Jesus rising from the dead. That is impossible since scientific methods requires observation or experiment of repetitive events and this cannot be applied to a one-off event that occurred in an unreachable 2,000 years ago. Skeptics know this and that is why they ask for it so when the Christian cannot produce this, they feel victorious. At the end of the day, I see a book and infer to a writer, that isn't anything extraordinary. On the other hand, Alexander the Great conquered the world in a few years is extraordinary feat, yet nobody asks for extraordinary evidence.

well, my opinion is; if i seek victory in our debate, i will seek to defeat you with facts. But if i seek the truth in our debate, i will help you to refine your questions.

i do seek the latter, im happy to proceed on with further discussion if you like.


What has being modern got to do with the validity of arguments that have not been universally disapproved. I am not running a fashion show. This sounds like a red herring to me.

kalam cosmoslogical argument defined the reasonings but the premise used in the argument to deduce the outcomes are flawed. We cannot be always derive everything back to the human and only us that matter. anyway, this is a lengthy philosophical discussion, please browse this video debunking the KCA.
[video=youtube;baZUCc5m8sE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=baZUCc5m8sE[/video]


I am glad that there is one debate with slightly better progress in this thread. I am an evangelical Christian and many of the denominations you stated are evangelical denominations and teach about the same things. Christianity isn't about long scrolls of teachings on what to do. It is about the message of Christ and salvation. There are different views on specifics but not divisive views. Except that Mormonism is no Christianity. Next, the statement that science is straightforward is too absolute. There are people who feel that gravity should be measured by mass, some more complex minds feel that gravity should be measured after taking gravitational counter pull of the sun and other planets. On the contrary, science is forced into the curriculum, while churches can have different denominations. Who says religion has less freedom?

not really, there are debates that jesus didnt come in flesh but as spirit that inherit a human body, others state that jesus came as a man, crucificed and rose to become god. the combinations are there, including marcion that insist doing the whole old testament away as he had seen the cruelty in the OT. dont forget the cathars. so there are many variations, it is thru' the relentless persecution of st augustine and the subsequent popes that most of these variations are wiped out and you have a vatican church which set to rule for the next 1500 years without constest until martin luther. but that is another set of histories.

what im getting here is; joseph smith of the mormom, mohammed, mithras, etc etc are all characters in the histories that came up with some belief systems and people did actually followed them. Now you can have peaceful existence among the multitude of faith or you can preach absolute dominance or intolerance to others. (remember? jealous god? smithing this and that idols?). I always say; the history is ALWAYS written by the victors, not the defeatists. So in this situation, the vaticans won with the help of emperor constantine.

remember Qin Shi Huang? he tried to burn out the existence of all china's past history books, journals and executed the scholars? why? to wipe out all that he thought that should not exist.

And if the british didnt conquer 3/4 of the world in the 17-19th century, will we be speaking english and believe in christianity? i dont think so.



You are correct that anti-Christianity is different from anti-religion, but if you recall, I did mention that I was an atheist and also later a deist. Perhaps you missed that out. Deism is hardly considered a religion - you don't worship a creator although you are considered a believer in ID (Intelligent Design).

yes, i understand and i dont seek to convert nor ridicule whatever you and i have. but fact is fact and here in sammyboymod forum, we battle out in anonymity and as i said before; iron sharpen iron, mind sharpen mind.

we never know how strong our tea is until we put them in hot water. likewise, we are subjecting ourselves to a constant intellectual debate to test our mettle. I too had been going to church for 20 years, and all along i have my doubts. i ignored it for a long time until i reach here, and being in IT guy which a certain inclination toward academic studies and logic/reasoning, i then subject my christian belief to logic/reasoning, turned out i became christian pluralist, ignorant, then agnostic, then atheist. It is not an overnight progression but a gradual process.

i borrowed an example from the net; when i decide to drop the belief off; i was afraid, like a man hanging on the end of the rope and afraid of falling into a pit black darkness. when i took courage and let go, i found out i landed on the ground just some inches below.
 
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