Crumbling of Singapore?

[red amoeba]

One thing for sure we can agree that Singapore really do have language problem. There is no commonality in any one language, but a hotchpotch of different languages in addition with different dialects. Some old people only speak dialects, some Chinese cannot speak Mandarin and other races speaks English and their own language. Here is where LKY failed miserably.

we started off like that...when the different migrants came into Singapore, they carried with them their dialects and they mingled and socialised within their communities. The colonial government wasn't interested in standardising anything.

LKY first tried to unify everybody by making Malay as national language, after we were booted out, English. He could not be seen greatly promoting Chinese but he could not 100% shut the Chinese schools down as well....

 

[TracyTan866]

you are mixing the issues up. I am not saying Singapore is defenseless. I am only saying - in making every single dick & pussy living on this island part of the money making equation, the government is losing the "soft" side of the affairs. yes, the threadmill is running, and the speed is ever gaining....more and more will fall off the theadmill.

What is then the outcome? I see PAP changing their stance after the last elections, the speed of the threadmill has stopped increasing for now....

Yes, many singaporeans are falling off the treadmill and many are left behind. Will the PAP govt do the right thing and reach out to those who have fallen off and make sure that no Singaporean is left behind?

I heard some good things came out from MCYS after CCS took over..let's hope that he has more compassion than VB

 

[red amoeba]

There is a Chinese saying that :" the wealth of a family does not go beyond three generations".

Looks like this is so true for SG:

1st Generation PAP leaders (1965 to 1980) - build SG
2nd Generation PAP leaders (1981 to 2000) - consolidate SG
3rd Generation PAP leaders (2001 to 2021) - squander away SG?

With LHL at the helm, will the crumbling of SG happen within the next 10yrs? we are seeing the decay and destruction of many good SG institutions and lifestyles.

Will the Opposition Parties be able to reverse this trend in 2016 and avoid the crumbling of SG?

technically, we are into the version 1.5 towards version 2 of Lee dynasty. GCT had some ideas but not 100% of them were executed. He was a bench warmer remember.

 

[Leongsam]

Which simply means sinkies has to die eventually.Sam,you has scored your own goal.

Talking about being surrounded by enemies?Ah so,PAP boogie man eh?Tell me Sam,if so how did Raffles manage build Singapore in the middle of enemy territory?....Or for that matter why are there more Chinese billionaires both in Malaysia and Indonesian than Singapore?....and millions more ethnic Chinese still prefer to live in enemy land than trade places to Singapore?

Of course Singapore will cease to exist eventually. I give it another 20 to 50 years max. If you read through the whole thread from the beginning, you won't find any post of mine declaring that the country will exist in perpetuity.

No city state lasts forever. Countries are not static. They're either growing or shrinking. All I've been claiming in this thread is that Singapore is not crumbling at the moment. It's still enjoying an upswing. How long this continues depends a lot on the fortitude of its leaders and citizenry and whether they can all pull in the same direction to keep the momentum going. Harping over minor issues is not a good way to get things done.

As for your Stamford Raffles argument you have to realise that Islam has changed considerably since 1979. The brand that is practiced today is a far cry from what we enjoyed in the 60s and 70s. It the time, it wasn't politicised and it wasn't militant. The Tunku had no problems having a beer in public in those days. However, that's a separate debate altogether. There's plenty of info on the web if you're interested. Google "Iranian Revolution". It will lead you into a fascinating insight as to how the world has changed in such a short period of time.

 

[red amoeba]

Yes, many singaporeans are falling off the treadmill and many are left behind. Will the PAP govt do the right thing and reach out to those who have fallen off and make sure that no Singaporean is left behind?

I heard some good things came out from MCYS after CCS took over..let's hope that he has more compassion than VB

they are beginning to show some empathy - the last elections gave them a jolt.

so business people are already complaining to me regarding the tightening of immigration...

 

[TracyTan866]

technically, we are into the version 1.5 towards version 2 of Lee dynasty. GCT had some ideas but not 100% of them were executed. He was a bench warmer remember.

...let's hope something happens in 2016

 

[red amoeba]

Of course Singapore will cease to exist eventually. I give it another 20 to 50 years max. If you read through the whole thread from the beginning, you won't find any post of mine declaring that the country will exist in perpetuity.

No city state lasts forever. Countries are not static. They're either growing or shrinking. All I've been claiming in this thread is that Singapore is not crumbling at the moment. It's still enjoying an upswing. How long this continues depends a lot on the fortitude of its leaders and citizenry and whether they can all pull in the same direction to keep the momentum going. Harping over minor issues is not a good way to get things done.

As for your Stamford Raffles argument you have to realise that Islam has changed considerably since 1979. The brand that is practiced today is a far cry from what we enjoyed in the 60s and 70s. It the time, it wasn't politicised and it wasn't militant. The Tunku had no problems having a beer in public in those days. However, that's a separate debate altogether. There's plenty of info on the web if you're interested. Google "Iranian Revolution". It will lead you into a fascinating insight as to how the world has changed in such a short period of time.

yes, it is not shooting off the cuff when LKY said we may one day rejoin Mudland.

Or before that, Singapore will die a natural death due to dwindling population.

 

[Windsor]

we started off like that...when the different migrants came into Singapore, they carried with them their dialects and they mingled and socialised within their communities. The colonial government wasn't interested in standardising anything.

LKY first tried to unify everybody by making Malay as national language, after we were booted out, English. He could not be seen greatly promoting Chinese but he could not 100% shut the Chinese schools down as well....

So where are we on the path to making this nation a real country? We were doing fine when the Cjinese and Indian communicate with patois Malay and most Singaporeans can speak a little at least.

Another problem LKY and the present generation of leaders failed to produced, pride and patriotism in the majority of the people. I bet when it comes to the crunch, many will leave the country at a drop of the hat.

 

[TracyTan866]

they are beginning to show some empathy - the last elections gave them a jolt.

so business people are already complaining to me regarding the tightening of immigration...

good point

business people have no right to complain..they shd hv been thankful that we had an incompetent govt who exploited local citizens to benefit big businesses..

businesses shd prosper because of their competency rather than have to exploit cheap labour

 

[TracyTan866]

yes, it is not shooting off the cuff when LKY said we may one day rejoin Mudland.

Or before that, Singapore will die a natural death due to dwindling population.

lky saw through the incompetency of the new pap leaders

 

[TracyTan866]

So where are we on the path to making this nation a real country? We were doing fine when the Cjinese and Indian communicate with patois Malay and most Singaporeans can speak a little at least.

Another problem LKY and the present generation of leaders failed to produced, pride and patriotism in the majority of the people. I bet when it comes to the crunch, many will leave the country at a drop of the hat.

we have taken three steps back with the huge influx of cheap PRC labour who refuse to integrate and assimilate into SG society. this is a big pap policy boo-boo..social problems because of wanting cheap labour

 

[Leongsam]

Please give the forummers here some credit. They are not so naive to draw such conclusions simply from one incident. It's so happen that this MRT incident the latest in a series of mis-steps by the government .

I can assure you that the govt made far more mistakes when LKY was PM.:p It almost started a war with Indonesia. It caused a major recession. it backed the wrong industries and punished the right ones. It adopted a flawed wage model. It messed up population control. It made a mess of NS with out of date doctrines.... plus many others which were a relatively minor but still caused problems far more serious than the breakdown of a 3rd rail.

The only difference then was that we didn't have facebook, twitter, sammyboy coffee shop, Mr Brown, Youtube etc to spread the word.

Everybody screws up... even Steve jobs with his stupid lisa, next, puck mouse, his cube, dot mac and mobile me. The important thing is simply to learn from these erros and move on to the next big thing.

 

[Nice-Gook]

Of course Singapore will cease to exist eventually. I give it another 20 to 50 years max. If you read through the whole thread from the beginning, you won't find any post of mine declaring that the country will exist in perpetuity.

Sam,sam you are getting rusty ole chap.Again you kicked the ball into your own goal.By being specific about 20 to 50 yrs time when Singapore self destruct.Why?Because no nation declined that fast in history unless it's a natural catastrophe.....You are right that countries shrink but that is through the process of attrition aka diseased.

Simply put why should Singapore vanish in 20 yrs or more if it's not crumbling now?Is that not what Tracy is telling us?Besides unlike you Sam,Tracy is also telling us that such crumbling is reversible if we take the right steps now.Whereas you mind is set that Singapore will sink regardless.

 

[Leongsam]

we have taken three steps back with the huge influx of cheap PRC labour who refuse to integrate and assimilate into SG society. this is a big pap policy boo-boo..social problems because of wanting cheap labour

SG society has always been fragmented so what is there to integrate into? Before the PRC Chinese arrived, the Eurasians lived in Katong, the Malays in Geylang and Telok Kurau, the Teochews in what is now Hougang, the Cantonese in Chinatown. Even the Chinese were split into the Chinese helicopters and the high brows from ACS, St Andrews, St Josephs and so on.

The recent mainlanders have simply added one more clan. I can't see it making much difference.

 

[TracyTan866]

Sam,sam you are getting rusty ole chap.Again you kicked the ball into your own goal.By being specific about 20 to 50 yrs time when Singapore self destruct.Why?Because no nation declined that fast in history unless it a natural catastrophe.....You are right that countries shrink but that is through the process of attrition aka diseased.

Simply put why should Singapore should vanish in 20 yrs or more if it's not crumbling now?Is that not what Tracy is telling us?Besides unlike you Sam,Tracy is also telling us that such crumbling is reversible if we take the right steps now.Whereas you mind is set that Singapore will sink regardless.

Sam is absolutely confused but refuses to admit it..

SG is not totally beyond redemption..I worry for SG as it hurtles down the slope with present bad policies...but a wise SG govt can reverse the road to destruction before it is too late...

 

[freedalas]

I can assure you that the govt made far more mistakes when LKY was PM.:p It almost started a war with Indonesia. It caused a major recession. it backed the wrong industries and punished the right ones. It adopted a flawed wage model. It messed up population control. It made a mess of NS with out of date doctrines.... plus many others which were a relatively minor but still caused problems far more serious than the breakdown of a 3rd rail.

The only difference then was that we didn't have facebook, twitter, sammyboy coffee shop, Mr Brown, Youtube etc to spread the word.

Everybody screws up... even Steve jobs with his stupid puck mouse, his cube, dot mac and mobile me. The important thing is simply to learn from these erros and move on to the next big thing.

I agree and in fact, even those failed policies that were implemented by GCT or LHL has its origin from LKY as it is still his mindset that they are pandering to. I also agree that the important thing is learn from these errors and move on to the next big thing. The problem is the PAP never learn from errors and move on to the next big thing still with the very similar approach and mindset. There will be hope of this only if LKY passes on and even then, it will be slow, but at least there will be changes. As long as he is still alive, no one will dare dismantle of anything.

 

[TracyTan866]

Looks like this is the prevalent feeling among Singaporeans and they are probably right abt LKY and the other PAP leaders..isnt this a sad reflection of the pap govt?

The whole govt is b.lless to speak up against an 88yr-old senile man who is obviously out of touch and is causing so much harm to SG?

Isnt this another sign of the crumbling of Singapore?

 

[Nice-Gook]

Sam is absolutely confused but refuses to admit it..

SG is not totally beyond redemption..I worry for SG as it hurtles down the slope with present bad policies...but a wise SG govt can reverse the road to destruction before it is too late...

Off the cuff,I have my own pet theory on the survival of Singapore.I came to that conclusion after reading heaps and heaps of anecdotal evidences not many reads about Singapore....Simply put 1 city,Yes city,has to play the role of Singapore in the Straits of Malacca.In the past it had been Palembang,Malacca and Singapore in that order.The enemies were the same--mighty Javanese,Thai and Malacca empires.Hence Singapore will exist so long as Straits of Malacca remains relevant globally.Once that equation changes everything else changes.Note how I had underplayed PAP role.Because it is PAP that must end in 20 yrs to 50yrs time

 

[Leongsam]

Sam,sam you are getting rusty ole chap.Again you kicked the ball into your own goal.By being specific about 20 to 50 yrs time when Singapore self destruct.

But the debate isn't about the longevity of Singapore. The fact that it will die is a given. I predicted it ages ago long before Tracytan existed in this forum.

What we are discussing is why it will crumble. The threadstarter is saying that the rot has already started because of poor management by the current government. I disagree. I think the govt is doing a very good job and Singapore is still thriving and growing and will continue to do so for at least a decade or so.

My prediction of Singapore's demise is based on external factors beyond any government's control eg a change in the political balance of the region which makes trading no longer viable or a terrorist attack which rocks the confidence of the whole region. Singapore faces many threats from abroad. The Isthmus of Kra canal might really get off the drawing board and into the realms of reality.

Singaporeans need to look beyond the borders if they want to spot the first signs of crumbling. Their own govt is not the enemy.

 

[TracyTan866]

Off the cuff,I have my own pet theory on the survival of Singapore.I came to that conclusion after reading heaps and heaps of anecdotal evidences not many reads about Singapore....Simply put 1 city,Yes city,has to play the role of Singapore in the Straits of Malacca.In the past it had been Palembang,Malacca and Singapore in that order.The enemies were the same--mighty Javanese,Thai and Malacca empires.Hence Singapore will exist so long as Straits of Malacca remains relevant globally.Once that equation changes everything else changes.Note how I had underplayed PAP role.Because it is PAP that must end in 20 yrs to 50yrs time

True..that could happen due to external situations. But internally, the present pap policies are killing SG and Singaporeans. how many Singaporeans wish they can migrate. How many singaporeans like their lifestyles?
How many Singaporeans relish bringing up their children in SG? Many of these internally problems are the result of bad pap policies..