Paul Cheung speaks out against the FT Policy

[freedalas]

Where is this place? Are you talking about NZ? People here do not live in houses, at least most don't. The guy earning $50k a year cannot anyway. And the guy earning $200k lives in a different street and he with $2million lives in a bungalow, far away from everybody else. Sam, I think you should start understand that a difference in income doesn't just mean a different pile of money in your account in the bank.

There's no point in debating with Leongsam who just like his PAP masters is living in a totally deluded world of his own. No matter how obviously right u are with your reasoning and deduction (of which I'd much to learn from), u will not make any headway till he's willing to remove his blinkers. Really, don't waste your time with him.

 

[Leongsam]

The middle-class in Singapore today suffers from economic and social ill-effects similar to those of the lower-class, with no sign of improvement but rather a sad promise of further deepening of such ill-effects and the unavoidable event of even more ill-effects.

In short, Singapore's socio-economic stratification today more closely resembles a third world country than it does a first-world country.

The general picture put forth about the "struggling" middle class is that they're really in bad shape from an economic standpoint. However, a closer examination does not seem to support this bleak assessment given the fact that there almost a quarter of a million maids working for Singapore households. That's far too large a number to be serving only the elites in bungalows so it must mean that a sizeable number of middle class HDB households have the luxury of domestic help.

If Singapore was approaching 3rd world status, it would hardly be in a position to import vast numbers of domestic help from other 3rd world countries. In fact, the reverse would be happening with Singaporeans being employed as maids in other countries.

In my opinion, there is only one word to describe the majority of Singaporeans and that is "SPOILT". The whine and moan about how tough life is while tapping away on their iPads and iPhones and drinking coffee at Starbucks.

 

[Leongsam]

There's no point in debating with Leongsam who just like his PAP masters is living in a totally deluded world of his own. No matter how obviously right u are with your reasoning and deduction (of which I'd much to learn from), u will not make any headway till he's willing to remove his blinkers. Really, don't waste your time with him.

The PAP are not my masters but then neither are they my number one enemy. I view the performance of the PAP from a position of impartiality. They are one of many governments that run countries around the world and like all governments, they have their strengths and their weaknesses. The bottom line is that they are doing a terrific job.

There's one crucial difference between you and I. You judge Singapore from this vantage point :

I, on the other hand, pass judgement only after looking at slightly larger picture :

Until you have lived and worked in a variety of countries and cultures and experienced an assortment of political systems, you're not in a position to appreciate how lucky you are to be a Singaporean. The ONLY thing that Singapore lacks is space. If your complaints and grumbles revolved around a feeling of claustrophobia, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. However, almost 100% of of the constant whinging here has nothing to do with the lack of the great outdoors. It's all about how unfair life is, how hard it is to earn a living, how deprived everyone is etc etc.

Very often, these pathetic messages describing, in vivid detail, how fucked up Singapore is, are forwarded to me via email. Guess what... at the end of the email, it says "Sent from my iPhone". I rest my case.

For gawd's sake get a sense of perspective before you type your next message about how deprived and downtrodden you guys are in one of the world's wealthiest countries.
​

 

[eatshitndie]

time to start a thread on how extensive an sbf member has travelled and the worldly wisdom that heshe has to offer. look out for it in this political folder. yes, it is related to politics.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

The general picture put forth about the "struggling" middle class is that they're really in bad shape from an economic standpoint. However, a closer examination does not seem to support this bleak assessment given the fact that there almost a quarter of a million maids working for Singapore households. That's far too large a number to be serving only the elites in bungalows so it must mean that a sizeable number of middle class HDB households have the luxury of domestic help.

If Singapore was approaching 3rd world status, it would hardly be in a position to import vast numbers of domestic help from other 3rd world countries. In fact, the reverse would be happening with Singaporeans being employed as maids in other countries.

In my opinion, there is only one word to describe the majority of Singaporeans and that is "SPOILT". The whine and moan about how tough life is while tapping away on their iPads and iPhones and drinking coffee at Starbucks.

Maids are a neccessity in many two-income households. Maids are also found predominantly in the homes of the better-off in Singapore society. It costs about S$1000 a month for a maid's salary, levy and maintenance. For a home with a monthly household income of $6000, this $1000 is a huge expenditure. I put it to you that you are not aligned with the needs and issues involving the middle income group in Singapore.

Poor job security is another major factor facing the middle income group in Singapore, a problem created by an open-door policy to FTs and FWs. It is also ridiculous to highlight drinking at Starbucks as a trait of someone who is facing financial difficulties with little chance of improving themselves economically. It's a nice picture for you to paint to support your stance but its existence is hugely questionable given the premise of your stance.

In short, Singapore Inc is a failure and is the sole causation for many of the problems facing Singapore today. Singapore Inc was premised under fascist policies to enrich the state by pushing policies that helped GLCs and property and land owners while discriminating against the lower and middle income groups. Instead of promoting the Singapore Brand into the region with our successful small and medium sized companies, the PAPpies main theme was self-promotion and masturbation. WIth their elitist, fascist attitudes, the PAPies alienated our neighbours, thus making it difficult for our small and medium sized firms to expand regionally.

When companies here faced smaller ROI due to our high standard of living, they chose to go to the open-door FT/FW policy. They should have been encouraged to expand overseas and to note that in a developed economy, lower margins in manufacturing and low-level service industries are to be expected. They should have been encouraged to innovate organically, internalize more productive assets and then to expand overseas in order to enlarge their profits.

Singapore Inc is gross failure and has costs Singaporeans at least 20 years, and counting, in terms of wealth-based economic growth. Singapore Inc is a disaster economically and as expected socially.

 

[Leongsam]

Maids are a neccessity in many two-income households. Maids are also found predominantly in the homes of the better-off in Singapore society.

I just got off a skype session with my ex clerk. She now does temping. Her husband is a supervisor. They have a maid. I asked her whether many of the other clerical staff she meets have maids. The answer is "yes". I guess they must be classified as the "better off".

Nobody but the mega rich have maids in NZ. They seem to get by without this "necessity". I wonder why a luxury in NZ is classified as a necessity in Singapore. I guess different countries have different expectations. Singaporeans certainly set their standards very high to the point whereby having someone to clean up after them is a the norm.

As for Singapore Inc all I can say is that the amount of wealth generated from a such a small piece of land with no natural resources is astronomical so the govt has to be doing something right.

As for job security it's something that no government can guarantee across the board. Neither is job security a pre requisite for a thriving economy. When I was working in an American multinational, people were getting fired on a regular basis and this was during the boom times. Whenever a recession loomed, whole production lines simply disappeared and the whole team from manager to production operator were gone in a puff of smoke too. This fact kept us nimble and forced us to keep our resumes up to date. It didn't stop me from enjoying the environment. It did teach me to take nothing for granted.

My opinion is still that Singaporeans are soft and spoilt. The majority can't take uncertainty and can't handle risk. They want a clear run with no hiccups and no surprises along the way. They love their routine which involves maids, dinner at mummies and shopping centres on the weekends and a guaranteed pay packet every month. Sadly, the interconnected world doesn't allow anyone to cruise through life anymore. You can't blame the PAP for that.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Maids are a neccessity in SG due to dual-income households and poor government resources set aside for full-day childcare. THere is also the issue of Asian parents not being comfortable leaving their child alone during the day. With regards to your clerk, perhaps setting aside $1000 a month is a neccessity and not a luxury. It is a lot of money for a family with a monthly household income of S$6000.

I have read and believe to be true that since the founding of Singapore, she has always been a gateway for international sea trade and the opening of the Suez Canal and greater international trade since the second world war has helped to increase the economic prosperity of Singapore. Look at the map that you placed in one of your previous post and imagine the ships that have to play through Singapore in order for goods to be shipped across Europe, Africa, South Asia, South east Asia, the Pacific countries and the rest of Asia. How else do you think Singapore came to having one of the world's busiest ports in the world, consistently, for the past many decades.

USA and other developed countries provide for income security in times of economic downtime. In Singapore Inc, it's you die, your business. Providing an environment conducive towards job creation and traction within one's job is indeed a duty of any government. Singapore Inc's open-door policy not only depressed wages but brought with it an environment where job security not onyl became a huge problem but the ability to secure another job became an even bigger problem. With a high-standard of living brought almost single-handedly by sky-high housing prices backed by a policy known as 'market subsidy', the average Singaporean faces a daunting task to make ends meet and to live a fulfilling life.

THe amount of wealth you talk off has no linkage with Singapore Inc. Rather Singapore Inc is the reason for the reduction of indigenous wealth in Singapore. Singapore Inc has also provided little economic wealth in terms of producing real organic growth. Singapore Inc is based on creating wealth through unproductive means - profiting from property investments, increasing profits by lowering wages from allowing unfair competition in the labour market and introducing numerous forms of taxation that are skewed towards the benefit of a minority. Very little innovation is what Singapore Inc embodies.

 

[bullfrog]

Unfortunately, the system is skewed towards the top and all that wealth is not trickling down to the majority of Singaporeans.

That is why today the PAP is forced to talk about inclusivity more often ( circa Tharman's speech at the IPS ). And all this only after a bruising GE 2011 where they were key-hauled.. So it pays to adopt the maxim: The squeaky wheel gets oiled first.

As for Singapore Inc all I can say is that the amount of wealth generated from a such a small piece of land with no natural resources is astronomical so the govt has to be doing something right.

 

[freedalas]

The PAP are not my masters but then neither are they my number one enemy. I view the performance of the PAP from a position of impartiality. They are one of many governments that run countries around the world and like all governments, they have their strengths and their weaknesses. The bottom line is that they are doing a terrific job.

There's one crucial difference between you and I. You judge Singapore from this vantage point :

I, on the other hand, pass judgement only after looking at slightly larger picture :

Until you have lived and worked in a variety of countries and cultures and experienced an assortment of political systems, you're not in a position to appreciate how lucky you are to be a Singaporean. The ONLY thing that Singapore lacks is space. If your complaints and grumbles revolved around a feeling of claustrophobia, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. However, almost 100% of of the constant whinging here has nothing to do with the lack of the great outdoors. It's all about how unfair life is, how hard it is to earn a living, how deprived everyone is etc etc.

Very often, these pathetic messages describing, in vivid detail, how fucked up Singapore is, are forwarded to me via email. Guess what... at the end of the email, it says "Sent from my iPhone". I rest my case.

For gawd's sake get a sense of perspective before you type your next message about how deprived and downtrodden you guys are in one of the world's wealthiest countries.
​

blah, blah, blah..................................... why write such a long essay when as always, u are basing your argument on only one point, that S'pore is one of the world's wealthiest countries. And yet this very one point had already been torn to shreds by forummers that it doesn't represent the well-being of the people at all. It's pointless that a country claims it has the highest GDP with the highest reserves when only a handful actually benefit from it. You talked about having to live in other country to know how good S'pore is. I tell u this, u should start living with or mixing with the lower rungs of our society in our country to truly appreciate their plights and how little or no help they are getting from this government. So don't talk about other countries till u truly know what your own country is. You often come here to say how ignorant we are of the situation in other countries, let me tell u how ignorant u are of the situation in this very country. I'm sure if u become fully aware in how bad a shape our fellow citizens in the lower stratas of this country are in, u will realise just how little u know of S'pore and u would be ashamed of all your past postings.

 

[Leongsam]

I tell u this, u should start living with or mixing with the lower rungs of our society in our country to truly appreciate their plights and how little or no help they are getting from this government. So don't talk about other countries till u truly know what your own country is. You often come here to say how ignorant we are of the situation in other countries, let me tell u how ignorant u are of the situation in this very country.

Even in countries with a full compliment of welfare benefits, the lower rungs of society live in squalid conditions. It's no different in the UK, in OZ or NZ.

You have this impression that the PAP is the cause of all their problems. In reality, the lower rungs cause their own problems. Replace the PAP with the WP in 2016 and the situation will be exactly the same 5 years on. No government in the world can turn losers into self sufficient members of society. The technology to do that hasn't been invented yet.

The sooner you realise that humans determine their own destinies, the sooner you'll come to your senses.

 

[IreneYeoh]

Even in countries with a full compliment of welfare benefits, the lower rungs of society live in squalid conditions. It's no different in the UK, in OZ or NZ.

You have this impression that the PAP is the cause of all their problems. In reality, the lower rungs cause their own problems. Replace the PAP with the WP in 2016 and the situation will be exactly the same 5 years on. No government in the world can turn losers into self sufficient members of society. The technology to do that hasn't been invented yet.

The sooner you realise that humans determine their own destinies, the sooner you'll come to your senses.

A bit blunt but I agree. Imagine my shock when I first arrived in Japan and saw homeless people there, when I first arrived in US I also saw homeless people there. Top two economies in the world! Crews were even instructed which homeless districts to avoid straying into. I think in politics, there's no such thing as perfect, only better or worse.

 

[Leongsam]

I think in politics, there's no such thing as perfect, only better or worse.

The problem with many here is that they're measuring the performance of the PAP on a very small range of yardsticks. Yes there may be some poor out there. Yes they may be paying themselves a bit too much. Yes there may be too many foreigners around.

However, they forget all the good things that the government has done. Infant mortality rate, life expectancy, crime, disease control, infrastructure development, GDP, growth, cleanliness, public housing etc are all top notch compared to the rest of the world.

Take a look at infant mortality rates https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html

Singapore is NUMBER TWO in the whole world after Monaco. This has huge significance. It means that as a mother, regardless of your social status, your chances of losing your baby at birth in Singapore is very, very low.

Another measure is life expectancy. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

Singapore ranks 7th in the world despite the fact that many PAP critics claim that the govt just leaves its citizens to die in the gutters. If that really were the case, how on earth would Singapore achieve such a high ranking.... better than Switzerland, Canada, Sweden and most other welfare states.

I could give many other examples but I hope I have made my point.

 

[winners]

.........Replace the PAP with the WP in 2016 and the situation will be exactly the same 5 years on. No government in the world can turn losers into self sufficient members of society.......

You talk like as if you can predict the future very well.

 

[Leongsam]

You talk like as if you can predict the future very well.

That's because I've experienced this scenario many times in the past. In the UK... Tory or Labour made no difference at all to the man on the street. Same thing Australia... Keating, Howard, Gillard.. all promising change, better lives, blah blah blah. After the election, all forgotten.

If you really think that LTK and this Chen character are some sort of Messiahs who will lead Singapore to a glorious new beginning, you have to be very young, very naive or both.

 

[winners]

That's because I've experienced this scenario many times in the past. In the UK... Tory or Labour made no difference at all to the man on the street. Same thing Australia... Keating, Howard, Gillard.. all promising change, better lives, blah blah blah. After the election, all forgotten.

If you really think that LTK and this Chen character are some sort of Messiahs who will lead Singapore to a glorious new beginning, you have to be very young, very naive or both.

So, in other words, you are endorsing and saying that nobody other than the current Lee regime can do a better job? How wrong can you be, despite your "vast years" of experience?

Not to mention about Malaysia since it is majority Malay dominance, but I can bet with you that if the clock can be rewound and LKY is put in charge of Taiwan (since it's also a Chinese majority country) in his early years, most probably he'll get assassinated within a year in office, especially with his iron-fist type of governance. He was lucky to have succeeded in Sinkie Land because the population in the mid 60s was only about 800,000 then.

 

[Leongsam]

So, in other words, you are endorsing and saying that nobody other than the current Lee regime can do a better job? How wrong can you be, despite your "vast years" of experience?

Depends how you define "better job". Everyone has slightly different terms of reference.

If a more laid back style of government had been in place, the stress levels would be lower, the country would be less crowded and there would be more time to smell the roses. However there would be a price to pay in terms of a lower standard of living, less infrastructure development, less purchasing power abroad, a higher infant mortality rate, higher levels of unemployment and so on.

At the end of the day, it's up to Singaporeans to choose the type of government they want. So far, they've always made their choice based on materialism rather than freedom. They decided in the early days that economic progress took precedent. This could change sometime in the future. It's up to the collective will of the nation.

 

[kingrant]

Questionable and debatable premises and assumptions.

Why would a laid back style of govt lead to lower std of living, less infrastructural dev, less purchasing power, etc?

The world's mortality rates have decreased in most OECD countries anyway, only really backward countries still have mort rates high. Do we compare ourselves to the least developed country or the most developed?

Australia and NZ have more laid back govts but they are far ahead in terms of all you mentioned.

If a more laid back style of government had been in place, the stress levels would be lower, the country would be less crowded and there would be more time to smell the roses. However there would be a price to pay in terms of a lower standard of living, less infrastructure development, less purchasing power abroad, a higher infant mortality rate, higher levels of unemployment and so on.

 

[Leongsam]

Australia and NZ have more laid back govts but they are far ahead in terms of all you mentioned.

No they aren't. Both OZ and NZ have infant mortality rates more than twice that of Singapore and the poverty has to seen to be believed. Google "Australian poverty". You won't believe your eyes. I too was surprised. I knew it was bad because I lived there for 10 years. I didn't know it was that bad.

In addition, the drug infested slums in the major cities of NZ and OZ are so bad simply wandering into the areas in bad for your health.

Murders per capita in OZ are 17.1 per million. In NZ it's 5.8 per million. Singapore, despite it's dense population, is only 3.8. If you want to walk the streets in Sydney or Auckland after midnight, you're on your own. I'm not coming with you.

I speak from first hand experience. I've lived in these countries. Life is no picnic for many. It's no better than Singapore. In fact, in many areas, it worse because drugs and alcoholism play a big part in making the lives of the poor even more miserable. In Singapore, the strict stance against drugs and drug abuse has saved thousands of lives in one way or another. I wish the governments in OZ and NZ would take a tougher stand but they dare not rock the boat.

 

[kukubird58]

Google "Australian poverty". You won't believe your eyes. I too was surprised. I knew it was bad because I lived there for 10 years. I didn't know it was that bad.
.

hahaha....u twit, don't believe everything u read in Google.
only Sinkiland under papeee has poverty.......if the next GE, the opp parties win the erection, Sinkiland will be the paradise on earth and poverty will be eradicated.

 

[coolguy]

The problem is this pap use our country's $ to invest overseas.
On the pretext of saying there is not enough manpower in sg, sign the future agreement
and let the foreign FTs flood this country.
After earning enough and sucking dry, they then left.
Economy bad, overseas investments also lose $.
Economy good, earn $ keep inside own pocket.
sgreans really screwed. lol.