New S’pore citizen defends PRs during discussion on housing

[peppertail]

Your dad fought during the confrontation, so i gathered he a ex brit servicemen who gone asiatic. Even so, he shd be eligable for the army pension. He must be 40s yo when u r born. As much as your dad didnt enjoy any benefits of being a PR here but that because he didnt game the system. The R&Rs of hdb purchase is set in stone by the govt, as much as the PRs had contribute to the state, the state have no obligation to repay the PRs as it shd always the citizens are the priority.

As much as u denied PRs are not a factor in the hdb resales price, i think u r seriously wrong. Only Citizens and PRs are eligable to purchase hdb flats. With only a constant under 3m pink ic holders, the demand for new flats will be flat if not for the 1m plus strong PRs. Most PRs i know brought resale flat via the open market. A ex colleague who only 25yo, single and msian, brought a resale flat together with her single elder sister and elder brother. All three of them are under 35yo are owner of a hdb flat wheras a pink ic holder who is single can only buy after 35yo. Another msian friend brought a flat in amk together with his ep wife. He has no intention to convert to pink ic despite having no love for msia. Without this million plus strong PRs, there will be at least another 100,000 units of flat available in the market. The price would drop like a stone. U at most only 13yo when properties price fell in 97, partly due to asian financial meltdown and parly because hongkies PRs return back to hong kong.

buy - bought
bring - brought

 

[I_Hate_Pappies]

I don't get why people say that....What benefits are there? He gets no benefits from a home country he hasn't been home in years, and essential services are much more expensive for him. How is that the best of both worlds?

Really, I would actually like to understand this POV.

You need to ask your Dad why he put himself into this kind of situation while others are maximising the benefit of being just a PR.
You need to ask those PRs around you why aren't they taking up citizenship in SG. You will know what it means by best of both worlds if they are willing to share with you their honest answer. You may not believe in what we are going to say here anyway.
Can you share what you said when you were talking into the microphone as shown in the picture. Seems like the papers are putting words into your mouth. Or that we have this misconception that everything written in the paper were said by you cause your picture was there.

 

[Thatguy]

Your dad fought during the confrontation, so i gathered he a ex brit servicemen who gone asiatic. Even so, he shd be eligable for the army pension. He must be 40s yo when u r born. As much as your dad didnt enjoy any benefits of being a PR here but that because he didnt game the system. The R&Rs of hdb purchase is set in stone by the govt, as much as the PRs had contribute to the state, the state have no obligation to repay the PRs as it shd always the citizens are the priority.

As much as u denied PRs are not a factor in the hdb resales price, i think u r seriously wrong. Only Citizens and PRs are eligable to purchase hdb flats. With only a constant under 3m pink ic holders, the demand for new flats will be flat if not for the 1m plus strong PRs. Most PRs i know brought resale flat via the open market. A ex colleague who only 25yo, single and msian, brought a resale flat together with her single elder sister and elder brother. All three of them are under 35yo are owner of a hdb flat wheras a pink ic holder who is single can only buy after 35yo. Another msian friend brought a flat in amk together with his ep wife. He has no intention to convert to pink ic despite having no love for msia. Without this million plus strong PRs, there will be at least another 100,000 units of flat available in the market. The price would drop like a stone. U at most only 13yo when properties price fell in 97, partly due to asian financial meltdown and parly because hongkies PRs return back to hong kong.

I absolutely agree the state has no obligation to "repay" PRs. I don't think I ever said otherwise. What I was talking about was the bind Singaporean kids who are born here but have PR parents face later.

Also, I never denied they're a factor. I said they aren't the driving force of the market, or the main issue of the market. Unless you're saying 1/5 of a market can dictate to the other 4/5 la. The problem isn't really that there are PRs buying on the resale market, and certainly not just that. That is, as Leongsam pointed out, a healthy thing. Money for Singaporeans who sell, for instance. The other problems would be the fact that there was a lost decade of building housing, and less focus on building 2 and 3 rooms and more focus on building 4,5, etc. The other problem, and what really contributed towards things rising like mad, would be the demand for private housing and condos. The low interest rates post 2008 combined with the amount of money flowing in here caused everything to rocket, not just property prices. And once premium housing prices go up, it drags along everything else, since that affects desirability of the area, which affects land value, which HDB calculates into their pricing.

Which is why I said PRs aren't the main problem, all things considered. It was the failure of a unified policy across the board regarding immigration and infrastructural development. That's why all the rush for the BTOs now. And yes, I do remember the crisis in 97, young as I was. Hard not to notice.

 

[Thatguy]

There really isn't a best of both worlds, other than perhaps having a place to fall back on should you decide to go. Not every country has benefits available for citizens overseas and earning above a certain amount, and things are more expensive as a PR than a citizen, and same taxes. And I say this having spoken too and knowing other PRs very well indeed. But maybe you know something that we don't, which is why I ask.

At that part, with the paper and the mic, my group was presenting on ways to make HDB more affordable, and if not drop the price now then at least keep it from rising further till the glut of flats being constructed now hit the market, whilst keeping an eye on the possibility of a repeat of 2008 soon.

We were talking about how BTO flat pricing should not include all the stuff built up around the blocks, for example, since that's public property and accessible to all, and so should fall under the municipal works budget, and that the unit prices should be specifically for the land the block is on. Also about building more two and three room flats to meet demand, bring supply down, give options to people to take shorter leases should they want to, with ability to extend the lease should they desire so and are able to later, opening up HDB rental to more people from the other income brackets, but with priority to the lower-income groups, and other stuff. Can't remember them all right now. The ideas our group came up with were covered by ST, TNP just covered the part where I told someone that PRs really don't have it all that good, cos she was talking about how they come here, don't pay tax, all the same benefits, etc. Which isn't accurate at all.

 

[Capano2121]

the joker is 29 ???!!!

he looks like 49................and like a Malay................

i think another farker that changed his 1st and last names...............

Keling christian lagi more angmofied names! Russell, Fernandez, Thorn, Matthew, Vittori! But when you see them in person, 100% chaokeling with the same twist!

 

[longbow]

I agree with you. Strong HDB resale price are a good thing as it allows Singaporeans to cash out and perhaps buy another unit at a cheaper place. That 5 room unit in town could be exchanged for a smaller 3/4 room unit for empty nesters wanting to cash in for retirement. If you were to take a poll of HDB owners, i doubt if many would want the prices of their flats to come down. Having said that, there is some market imbalance that is currently being attended to.

Most of the problems we are seeing is that under MBT, they grossly underestimated HDB demand. Many Singaporeans that want to start a family have no choice but to buy resale after failing to get balloted for BTO a few times. This too drives up the resale market (good for the resellers). But HDB has ramped up BTO and I think we will have a very different conversation in 3 years. Another thing HDB could so would be to offer rental units for couple that have booked a flat and are waiting for flat to be completed. This way they have option to start family a few years earlier.

Citizens vs PRs - there should be greater differentiantion between Citizens and PRs. Also, I believe that since it is demanded of all Singapore born male citizens to put in 2 years of their lives to NS and many years after that of reserve duties some differentiation should be made between Citizens that have fulfilled their NS liability vs those that have not. So maybe allow additional benefits for those who have done NS vs those that have not.

I do not see why the new citizens cannot contribute to our national defence efforts. Currently those that are above a certain age need not do the NS. Why not instead get them to go into Civil Defence - 3 months Civil Defence Bootcamp followed by 3 weeks a year of duties for the next 10 years. That way they have skin in the game. It also helps on social cohesion.

In the case of Sean, since he has put in his NS time he should be given whatever grant there is out there regardless of whether Dad is PR or not. I think fulfilling that NS obligation should put one in the highest standing in terms of benefits and recognition. Remember, the other side of the coin, not doing NS results in jail time, loss of citizenship, etc etc. So since the government takes it so seriously they could reward it just as well.

Add value to that NS effort. Women wanting maximum grant, choice of schools, child care grants - better marry guy that has completed NS. I know of many who work in Singapore for 2 years, get their citizenship and avoid all NS because their are 30. After that they move back to where ever they are from. NS has it privileges.

 

[winnipegjets]

buy - bought
bring - brought

We, sinkee, don't bother about tenses when we are animated.

 

[eatshitndie]

agree. to assimilate new citizens to old sinkie's world class saf-trained discipline and constant bending over to authorities for the next screw, all prospective pr's wanting to carry the pink ic must pass a 3-month bootcamp in pulau hantu specializing in how to line up for hello kitty toys at a fastfood restaurant. anyone ending up with not a single toy at the end of the course will be rejected and asked to balik kampong. :*:

 

[winnipegjets]

I agree with you. Strong HDB resale price are a good thing as it allows Singaporeans to cash out and perhaps buy another unit at a cheaper place. That 5 room unit in town could be exchanged for a smaller 3/4 room unit for empty nesters wanting to cash in for retirement. If you were to take a poll of HDB owners, i doubt if many would want the prices of their flats to come down. Having said that, there is some market imbalance that is currently being attended to.

Is the current inflated property market supported by fundamentals? I don't think so. The market has been hot because of the influx of foreigners. That's why the government cannot let up in flooding sinkapore with more foreigners. But there will be a day when foreigners had enough of the fling ...their affair with sinkapore is a one night stand. So, you think Sinkees will still feel rich?

Most of the problems we are seeing is that under MBT, they grossly underestimated HDB demand. Many Singaporeans that want to start a family have no choice but to buy resale after failing to get balloted for BTO a few times. This too drives up the resale market (good for the resellers). But HDB has ramped up BTO and I think we will have a very different conversation in 3 years. Another thing HDB could so would be to offer rental units for couple that have booked a flat and are waiting for flat to be completed. This way they have option to start family a few years earlier.

There was no underestimation; it was deliberate to push up the price of HDB flat. It was only the shellacking that the PAP received in the last poll that got them to try to address the price problem. Even then, their hands are tied as they need HDB flat price to be at a high level so as to deplete the CPF accounts of sinkees. The CPF has no dough otherwise.

Citizens vs PRs - there should be greater differentiantion between Citizens and PRs. Also, I believe that since it is demanded of all Singapore born male citizens to put in 2 years of their lives to NS and many years after that of reserve duties some differentiation should be made between Citizens that have fulfilled their NS liability vs those that have not. So maybe allow additional benefits for those who have done NS vs those that have not.

The important essentials like housing, car, utilities, education and education should cost a lot more for foreigners than for sinkees. No foreigners should have access to tax-funded hospitals or schools. PRs may access them by paying 50 percent more. COE and utilities should cost 4X more for foreigners and 2X more for PRs.

I do not see why the new citizens cannot contribute to our national defence efforts. Currently those that are above a certain age need not do the NS. Why not instead get them to go into Civil Defence - 3 months Civil Defence Bootcamp followed by 3 weeks a year of duties for the next 10 years. That way they have skin in the game. It also helps on social cohesion.

The government knows that compulsory servitude to the country will stop foreigners from coming here. So, the government kowtow to foreigners.

 

[Loofydralb]

This family of pariahs are making use of Singapore's generosity.

The dad was in British army and of course has benefitted from good lifelong pensions. Now he comes to Singapore to leech and take advantage of Singapore's system. Obviously he won't give up his UK citizenship and risk losing his golden pension.

I don't see any benefit giving the dad PR status. The traits now gets inherited by the offspring, magnified by Keeling blood (no error here).

 

[I_Hate_Pappies]

I absolutely agree the state has no obligation to "repay" PRs. I don't think I ever said otherwise. What I was talking about was the bind Singaporean kids who are born here but have PR parents face later.

Also, I never denied they're a factor. I said they aren't the driving force of the market, or the main issue of the market. Unless you're saying 1/5 of a market can dictate to the other 4/5 la. The problem isn't really that there are PRs buying on the resale market, and certainly not just that. That is, as Leongsam pointed out, a healthy thing. Money for Singaporeans who sell, for instance. The other problems would be the fact that there was a lost decade of building housing, and less focus on building 2 and 3 rooms and more focus on building 4,5, etc. The other problem, and what really contributed towards things rising like mad, would be the demand for private housing and condos. The low interest rates post 2008 combined with the amount of money flowing in here caused everything to rocket, not just property prices. And once premium housing prices go up, it drags along everything else, since that affects desirability of the area, which affects land value, which HDB calculates into their pricing.

Which is why I said PRs aren't the main problem, all things considered. It was the failure of a unified policy across the board regarding immigration and infrastructural development. That's why all the rush for the BTOs now. And yes, I do remember the crisis in 97, young as I was. Hard not to notice.

More than 80% of the local population stay in HDB flats, there's about slightly more than a million HDB flats in Singapore, average number of 30,000 resales transactions a year. 1/5 out of 4/5, i think it's a huge percentage consider the number of flats available on the market for sales in the resales market is only about 0.03% or less of the total number of HDB flats. I believe a good number of transactions were from dwellers who change from one HDB flat to another HDB Flat. Leaving behind a portion of them selling for good, these are then the flats available for PRs and locals to grab.
The fact that we have low TFR over the years but high application for BTO does tell you something too. Not as if the rules allow a sinkie to own a couple of HDB flats.
Of course, we can't say 1/5 dictate 4/5. If all 4/5 flats are up for Sales, the prices will crash like never before.

There was no failure, it's a great success. They wanted this to happen. Any average Joe on the streets will know that if you are welcoming guests to the house to stay, the first thing that comes to his mind is, are there enough space and beds for them? You are telling me our million dollars men have no freaking idea about it? Are you?

There really isn't a best of both worlds, other than perhaps having a place to fall back on should you decide to go. Not every country has benefits available for citizens overseas and earning above a certain amount, and things are more expensive as a PR than a citizen, and same taxes. And I say this having spoken too and knowing other PRs very well indeed. But maybe you know something that we don't, which is why I ask.

Best of what they can get in their own countries as a citizen and best of what they can get out of SG as a PR. Of course, they can't be getting better stuffs than the locals in SG. However, i feel that the differentiation is really not that significant. 2 to 2.5 yrs of NS with 10 cycles of ICT plus IPPT and RT. NS for SG, Jobs for FT for those grants, subsidies and so on. Do bear in mind, not all are eligible end of the day.

First of all, these PRs you have spoken to, are they intending to take up local citizenship. Every time these people tells me how good SG is and how bad their countries are. I will ask them how come you are not taking up the citizenship here? Er...

At that part, with the paper and the mic, my group was presenting on ways to make HDB more affordable, and if not drop the price now then at least keep it from rising further till the glut of flats being constructed now hit the market, whilst keeping an eye on the possibility of a repeat of 2008 soon.

We were talking about how BTO flat pricing should not include all the stuff built up around the blocks, for example, since that's public property and accessible to all, and so should fall under the municipal works budget, and that the unit prices should be specifically for the land the block is on. Also about building more two and three room flats to meet demand, bring supply down, give options to people to take shorter leases should they want to, with ability to extend the lease should they desire so and are able to later, opening up HDB rental to more people from the other income brackets, but with priority to the lower-income groups, and other stuff. Can't remember them all right now. The ideas our group came up with were covered by ST, TNP just covered the part where I told someone that PRs really don't have it all that good, cos she was talking about how they come here, don't pay tax, all the same benefits, etc. Which isn't accurate at all.

Actually, not so much of building more 2-3 bedroom flats but more of BUILD MORE FUCKING BIG FLATS AT A MORE AFFORDABLE FLATS!!!

 

[I_Hate_Pappies]

Another thing HDB could so would be to offer rental units for couple that have booked a flat and are waiting for flat to be completed. This way they have option to start family a few years earlier.

LB, already not enough flats liao, where to find so many rental units? Abolish NS and convert camps into budget lodgings?

 

[looneytan]

If you're going to ignore all the dumbfucks in this forum, you're left with less than 5 to follow.

Is looneytan among the 4 ?

 

[Thatguy]

I do not see why the new citizens cannot contribute to our national defence efforts. Currently those that are above a certain age need not do the NS. Why not instead get them to go into Civil Defence - 3 months Civil Defence Bootcamp followed by 3 weeks a year of duties for the next 10 years. That way they have skin in the game. It also helps on social cohesion.

Agreed. At the very least, the option for them to volunteer to do so should exist, if the die-die must do scenario is not viable for now. I do know of new citizens who would very much be willing to volunteer for the police, or fire department, or as a paramedic.

I know we have auxiliary units for these branches that accept people who want to volunteer, but not sure if it's open to PRs and all. A better job of raising awareness would be good, I only know it because of my school's NCDCC CCA. Else it's possible I'd never have learnt of it.

 

[Thatguy]

LB, already not enough flats liao, where to find so many rental units? Abolish NS and convert camps into budget lodgings?

Gotta see results after BTO's hit market, since this discussion was focused on things over the next few years, not just right now.. Also, EM services stops using all the old flats that were en-bloced but have not been demolished yet and we house people there instead. After all that is done, THEN they can commercially rent out via EM services.

 

[Thatguy]

Man, I honestly wish what you said was true. No, really. Cos then, would have money, right? Then wouldn't have been in the situation I was in ma.

Twit.

And still got error, you seem unable to spell it right. I mean, most die hard racists are twits, but you take the cake.

 

[po2wq]

Is looneytan among the 4 ?

tink ah looneytan is @ 4.990.01 ...

 

[Thatguy]

There was no failure, it's a great success. They wanted this to happen. Any average Joe on the streets will know that if you are welcoming guests to the house to stay, the first thing that comes to his mind is, are there enough space and beds for them? You are telling me our million dollars men have no freaking idea about it? Are you?



You want my honest opinion? I think that the people in charge of that time period, while thinking that it would be a good way to salvage the property market and all at the time, vastly underestimated both how demand could jump and just how hard it would be to recover from an artifical shortage, along with all the side effects that came with it(including the battering at the polling box). So yes, I think that they really dropped the ball on that one. Yes, I also said as much in that convo, as well as others. You can't run a country by building the infrastructure to demand. The timings of everything makes it such that if you're not ahead of the demand, you're gonna be lagging and while you're trying to settle the initial demand that got you moving, the demand itself will be growing. Really la, damn cock move.

Unless one is of the school of thought that they don't care about the country so long as the money keeps going la, in which case then they knew exactly what they were doing I guess.


Actually, not so much of building more 2-3 bedroom flats but more of BUILD MORE FUCKING BIG FLATS AT A MORE AFFORDABLE FLATS!!!

Hahaha, yea. But then again, still should have multiple sizes. Not everyone is gonna want or need such big flats, smaller flats are also good for smaller families or couples or siblings who buy together, etc. I just believe there should be variety to cater to as many different lifestyles as possible la.

 

[winnipegjets]

Hahaha, yea. But then again, still should have multiple sizes. Not everyone is gonna want or need such big flats, smaller flats are also good for smaller families or couples or siblings who buy together, etc. I just believe there should be variety to cater to as many different lifestyles as possible la.

Affordability is the issue here.

 

[I_Hate_Pappies]

Gotta see results after BTO's hit market, since this discussion was focused on things over the next few years, not just right now.. Also, EM services stops using all the old flats that were en-bloced but have not been demolished yet and we house people there instead. After all that is done, THEN they can commercially rent out via EM services.

TG, they have already started doing so but these buildings are available not for locals. Here.
There are also some cheap accommodations around but those are only for work permits holders. I m not talking about workers dormitory.