Lim Chin Siong was a Communist

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Locke,

By your logic, PAP's logo/sign is basically Facist.

Anyway, that's beside the point. What you have stated so far are not concrete evidence that could withstand rigorous testing.

As I have said, PAP LKY faction has helped numerous KNOWN communists to escape British arrests, so does that make them communist? Communist sympathizers? Yes, they were not that ignorant and should know very well the differences between Socialism vs Communism but yet, they help communists! Are they LEFT enough to put up the helping hand or even left enough to be considered Communists?

Your argument cannot withstand comparative study of various behaviors of different factions in that political arena. At best, it is just an educated guess.

Goh Meng Seng

Dear GMS

My view has always been to seek and triangulate between differing accounts of history, note the differences and to account for them.

Cold Store succeeded by Chin Peng's own admission, if it worked as claimed then obviously the majority of those arrested might have been LKY's opponents but they definitely were either communist members or supporters for Chin Peng's claim to be true.

LKY quoted Harold Laski, he was a socialist but that was very far from being a communist. Goh Keng Swee went to LSE, that was as left a liberal institution as it could get, but whatever the case they all understood the differences between the left and the communist. There were not innocents, no political virgins then, the left knew what it stood for, and the communist knew what it stood for.

How far left was LCS. and LSC to the point of being marxists ? Its illustrative that the emblem of Barisan Soclalis did not bother in any way to disguise its communist or marxist origins.



Locke

 

[TeeKee]

of course, during that time, the ang moh hated communism, so to say Lim Chin Siong was communist was an easy way to rid him from power.

i dun think alot of angmos hate communism, especially the europeans, the socialist aspect of communism has some attractiveness for the society.

it is the hate generated by Mc Namara's anti-communsit policy makers in the 60s that brought US into war against North Korea and subsequently Vietnam. Prior to that, includes massive persecutions of many communists sympathizers in the US.

only China threaten to nuke the Americans, then they decided to pull out from Vietnam...

nobody really knows if the CIA were also involved in stirring riots in SEA...to continue to push the anti-communist agenda...they were agents around that time....i read in a spy book...

whether communists or capitalists, both are guilty of bringing wars to many countries..to push their own ideologies..

 

[Hawkeye1819]

What are your thoughts?

LCS was communist in both thought & deed, but like LKY he too was using communism for his own purposes. Why he lost to LKY was because LKY knew how to use the british and the Tunku to his own advantage.

The moral fibre of LCS per se will forever be an open question. Had LCS won, he may well have jailed LKY in the same way LKY jailed his opponents.

 

[Hawkeye1819]

So what?

What's the difference between commies and those who cavort openly with them?

There is a diifference between pple who cavort with commies for their private agenda and those who truly ascribe to the ideology.

One group make use of pple, the other grp end up being made use of.

Think about it.

 

[TeeKee]

As I have said, PAP LKY faction has helped numerous KNOWN communists to escape British arrests, so does that make them communist? Communist sympathizers? Yes, they were not that ignorant and should know very well the differences between Socialism vs Communism but yet, they help communists! Are they LEFT enough to put up the helping hand or even left enough to be considered Communists?

you will neber know if Hakka Lee is behind all these and he made used of the British to arrest LCS instead...by saboing him!

sometimes history is really messy and you dunno who is telling the truth/lies

there's no history forensics to determine and validate every historical accounts..

 

[haosengkia]

can re-write history?

 

[TeeKee]

can re-write history?

sure, you must have documentary/witness evidence....

anybody can correct history..

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear GMS

There is a world of difference between the social democratic left who understood that they were using communist with the communist knowing they were suing them and the left who knew that the communist were using them and were happy to be used because the believed as many did in communism and the rise of China.

Chin Peng himself admitted as much in his own words, not LKY's version of history but his version from Thailand, he in his own words "influenced" them or more correctly I would say controlled them. You seem to have written ur own version of history




Locke

 

[kingrant]

What's the diff? Look at China and S'pore now. One dominant party with dictatorial powers. Communism is just a vehicle for power grabbing. PAP did it on their backs and outmanouvred them, with the aid of the colonial powers, who preferred a Cambridge trained English speaking lawyer than a Chinese educated chap. Had LCS been English speaking, maybe it wld have been diff. A bit of oversimplification no doubt. But Lee was seen as more moderate. Of course, rest is history and how LKY has switched tactics.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

succinct and yet very insightful bro...my points with compliments

harry looks to have played and outwitted just about everyone and anyone for his own ends...japs, commies, british, tunku, the separate local ethnic groups etc even the pap old guard...he is machiavellian to the core...

however i truly think on balance that at that pivotal moment in history singapore was lucky that harry 'won' instead of chin siong because chin siong's group (apart from apparent opportunist's like say sheng nam chin) was far too left of the political spectrum...what harry & the paps have done in the last 15-20 odd years does not change this fact...

LCS was communist in both thought & deed, but like LKY he too was using communism for his own purposes. Why he lost to LKY was because LKY knew how to use the british and the Tunku to his own advantage.

The moral fibre of LCS per se will forever be an open question. Had LCS won, he may well have jailed LKY in the same way LKY jailed his opponents.

 

[scroobal]

Whats your background bro. Did we dabble back in the old SBF many years ago. I ask this because, you are the only one to make the best possible assessment.

Good to have you here.

I actually started this after reading Alex Au commentary. It dawned on me that most singaporeans had no clue what transpired then.

LCS was communist in both thought & deed, but like LKY he too was using communism for his own purposes. Why he lost to LKY was because LKY knew how to use the british and the Tunku to his own advantage.

The moral fibre of LCS per se will forever be an open question. Had LCS won, he may well have jailed LKY in the same way LKY jailed his opponents.

 

[scroobal]

The British had the same view so they did maintain links with Chin Siong. Chin had one dilemma - his weak English and his strength in Chinese Oratory. Interestingly he was no chinese chauvinist and had very good friends amongst the Malays and the Indians. It however became very apparent that the mountain could not go to Mohammed.

When Old man realised that the British was prepared to party with Chin Siong, old man went straight to Tungku and screwed the British.

LCS was communist in both thought & deed, but like LKY he too was using communism for his own purposes. Why he lost to LKY was because LKY knew how to use the british and the Tunku to his own advantage.

The moral fibre of LCS per se will forever be an open question. Had LCS won, he may well have jailed LKY in the same way LKY jailed his opponents.

 

[Einfield]

LCS denied he was a communist even when he was on his death bed. Even if he is one, it is no big deal. A communist cares for his community. what's wrong with that?

Communist or Traitor, which is worse?

 

[jim007jimmyboy]

u believe the old man?



Operation ColdStore is a farce to wipe out competition for old man

 

[halsey02]

Whats your background bro. Did we dabble back in the old SBF many years ago. I ask this because, you are the only one to make the best possible assessment.

Good to have you here.

I actually started this after reading Alex Au commentary. It dawned on me that most singaporeans had no clue what transpired then.

Those SINgaporeans have not lived through the times, or know what Templar wrote , "the jungle is neutral", through confrontasi, through self-government, through joining the Federation of Malaysia, and being kicked out, to having a flag, an anthem of our own, of May 13, 1969 of....

That is why they have no idea, and no clue...

The communists in which the present goverment were eradicating in the past, are the same, they are embracing as brothers, today from the People's Republic of China, Zong Hua Gong Her Quo...the same communists, in a new bottle....basically they are still communists...

What they are attempting now...is to slant histrory, to make them look good....:p which is not unusual if one is a student of history...for history repeats themselves...:p

 

[batman1]

u believe the old man?



Operation ColdStore is a farce to wipe out competition for old man

Since 1963 the coward dictator Old Fart had won all elections thru undemocratic means such as instilling fear,bribery,detention of political opponents,gerrymandering...etc.The truth is the whole of sinkeeland is controlled by the corrupt LeeMafia Family.The tragedy is that the 66.66% materialistic voters could be bought over by promises of more material benefits by the hypocritical MIW.

 

[RandomNexus]

Just to add my thots:

We have been hit with much propaganda and brainwashing that communism is bad, and we don't query this anymore as you are part of this landscape here.

Here is the underlying reasoning:

Communism is bad ---> You are a Communist ---> You are bad ----> You deserved to be detained or punished.

Thus, there is this perpectual query - is Chin Siong communist? is so-and-so or another communist?.... why ask this so often huh?

By putting up this query, we subject or set ourselves to query the way the state or power-to-be wants us to do.

Communism is just a variant of the marxist ideology and as an ideology, there are many differing schools of thoughts even socialism has aspects of communism and vice versa. Communism is legal in France, India and many countries, and the communist parties respect democracy.

What I do find abhorrent is this rationality - the ends justifies the means which we are told and did witness it happening in communist-ruled countries. By so stating it, those who are practising communists uses it to justify murders, slander, detentions etc. Am I not writing about the practices of those who are non-communists as well? The rationality is not in the domain of communism alone, but it is practised in most political systems.

Politics is dirty and it is said to be related to the other P ("prostitution") but in a sense, I reckon prostitution is far nobler than politics as one pretends to be noble, while the other doesn't make any attempt to hide it.

There is a time when communism was seen as an ideal among the chinese populace here and many young brave ones died fighting against the Japanese. Many young ones left their earthly comforts to fight for justice and freedom in the name of communism, whether misguided or not, we leave it to history but nobody can deny what forms their basic drive, perhaps naive. However, naivety is everywhere, and is not just in communism but in every political system. I do respect these folks, and a number of them are now in Betong, and they become idealistic at such young ages till now.

In politics especially back in those days, it is life or death, and if LKY has not won, he knows that the other side would just be as ruthless if not more worse than him. One thing I must say is that LKY and his system has not caused the mass murders by the thousands or millions we have seen in countries like China and Soviet Union. Even a anti-commie like Chiang Kai Shek murders to enhance his own power. In Chinese dynastic systems, mass executions is the norm and sometimes, one can be executed by virtue of mere association. In that sense, I can say LKY is a benevolent dictator.

To be frank, I give credit to LKY and his likes for having gotten their economics right, and brought the prosperity of today, earning the gratitude of the multitudes here and their subservience.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Random Nexus,

Long time no see!

Fair comment.

However, past good deeds may not justify present ill doings.

Goh Meng Seng

Just to add my thots:

We have been hit with much propaganda and brainwashing that communism is bad, and we don't query this anymore as you are part of this landscape here.

Here is the underlying reasoning:

Communism is bad ---> You are a Communist ---> You are bad ----> You deserved to be detained or punished.

Thus, there is this perpectual query - is Chin Siong communist? is so-and-so or another communist?.... why ask this so often huh?

By putting up this query, we subject or set ourselves to query the way the state or power-to-be wants us to do.

Communism is just a variant of the marxist ideology and as an ideology, there are many differing schools of thoughts even socialism has aspects of communism and vice versa. Communism is legal in France, India and many countries, and the communist parties respect democracy.

What I do find abhorrent is this rationality - the ends justifies the means which we are told and did witness it happening in communist-ruled countries. By so stating it, those who are practising communists uses it to justify murders, slander, detentions etc. Am I not writing about the practices of those who are non-communists as well? The rationality is not in the domain of communism alone, but it is practised in most political systems.

Politics is dirty and it is said to be related to the other P ("prostitution") but in a sense, I reckon prostitution is far nobler than politics as one pretends to be noble, while the other doesn't make any attempt to hide it.

There is a time when communism was seen as an ideal among the chinese populace here and many young brave ones died fighting against the Japanese. Many young ones left their earthly comforts to fight for justice and freedom in the name of communism, whether misguided or not, we leave it to history but nobody can deny what forms their basic drive, perhaps naive. However, naivety is everywhere, and is not just in communism but in every political system. I do respect these folks, and a number of them are now in Betong, and they become idealistic at such young ages till now.

In politics especially back in those days, it is life or death, and if LKY has not won, he knows that the other side would just be as ruthless if not more worse than him. One thing I must say is that LKY and his system has not caused the mass murders by the thousands or millions we have seen in countries like China and Soviet Union. Even a anti-commie like Chiang Kai Shek murders to enhance his own power. In Chinese dynastic systems, mass executions is the norm and sometimes, one can be executed by virtue of mere association. In that sense, I can say LKY is a benevolent dictator.

To be frank, I give credit to LKY and his likes for having gotten their economics right, and brought the prosperity of today, earning the gratitude of the multitudes here and their subservience.

 

[TeeKee]

Communism is bad ---> You are a Communist ---> You are bad ----> You deserved to be detained or punished.

Communists/Neo-Nazis can gather publicly and neber get arrested in Europe...why, because they respect human rights...

 

[Hawkeye1819]

however i truly think on balance that at that pivotal moment in history singapore was lucky that harry 'won' instead of chin siong because chin siong's group (apart from apparent opportunist's like say sheng nam chin) was far too left of the political spectrum...what harry & the paps have done in the last 15-20 odd years does not change this fact...

I think comparing the relative merits of LCS vs harry can be misleading. Brutality can take many forms, we just do not know what LCS was capable of 'cos he was never given the ultimate power.