• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

England, English Players and such...

Glaringly

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Come across a good article. Thought I start with this since the world cup mania is about to begin...

http://www.football365.com/john_nicholson/0,17033,8746_6117373,00.html

Is the Premier League too physical?

Lovely Fernando Torres certainly thinks so, commenting this weekend: "I just can't imagine what state I'll be in within five or six years if I continue to play here - it could easily give me problems when I stop playing. The physical level is superior to all other countries."

It might sound like whimpering of a pampered Premier League player but Torres is no pussycat. He's a tall, strong man, quite capable of looking after himself. If he's feeling the pressure of being knocked about, then maybe it's time to stop and take a look at the nature of the football played here.

Players certainly seem to be injured in record numbers this season. Can it all be down to the fact that they're less physically robust and can't take a kicking like a proper man?

To someone of my generation, the Premier League doesn't seem very physical at all - rather it seems on its way to being a non-contact sport. So what''s Fernando talking about? Is he just being soft?

Actually, I think he's onto something. And it's all to do with us; the British football fan and what we expect from players.

We know that there is a significant majority of fans who judge the quality of players by the amount of sweat they perspire. In many quarters in British football, work-rate is the superior, macho brother of the more fey, nancy boy called creativity. Workrate is the solid dependable meat and potatoes type, whereas creativity is mercurial, unreliable and a bit too flash.

Just look at how many expressions there are for players who get through a lot of running - 'he's got a good engine', 'gets up and down', 'put in a good shift', 'can run all day'...

Work-rate is easy to see even for the most stupid fan. If your striker is pounding back to his own by-line to win a tackle, it'll get a massive cheer. If he shrugs his shoulders and decides he'd rather be nearer the goal to do the job for which he is handsomely paid, then some fans will accuse him of being uncommitted and lazy.

So all players and managers, wherever they are from, have to make a decision when playing in England - do you want to suffer the opprobrium of the majority of the crowd who just think running around a lot is the ultimate symbol of passion and commitment, by not chasing every lost cause and reserving your energies for when you've got possession, or do you bow down to the pressure and run yourself into the ground, thus making yourself more prone to get injured? When your muscles are tired, that is when they are at their weakest and most liable to suffer a tear or strain.

I suspect this cultural difference is at the core of Torres' remarks. In this country the physical aspect of the game is admired by press and fans alike. Defenders are lauded for putting their body on the line and throwing themselves into last-ditch, injury-inducing tackles, often only necessary because of lack of pace or poor positioning in the first place.

As much as I miss the brutality of 70s and 80s football which at times was more like watching open-air butchery, even I recognise that there were down sides to it, especially when it came to international football when England, forever relying on power and strength over skill, fell short of the mark when playing sides that put skill first.

Players like Bryan Robson were hailed as Captain Marvel because of his ceaseless physical effort and commitment. He would routinely throw himself into reckless challenges until something broke, dislocated or broke clean off. How well did England do when Robson played for England? Not very; one quarter-final only after he'd put his shoulder out and gone home.

For too long we've respected that kind of player too much. I'm not decrying Robson or his work - he played to the best of his abilities - but that type of player isn't and never has been enough at the highest level and yet kids are trained from an early age to think it is.

British football culture still coaches our youth this way and there's no evidence that it's changed. There is no young English Messi or anyone even close. Yes we can point to Aaron Lennon and Ashley Young as young skilful wingers, and that is much to be admired, but how long will they stay fit when they're required to go hammer and tongs at a defence every game. Putting your foot on the ball and slowing down play has been all but boo-ed out of the game in Britain. England fans even booed their own team when they first tried it under Fabio Capello.

We are institutionally short of creative players. We produce a lot of players in the Lampard and Gerrard mode. They're all-rounders who can run all day, tackle, shoot and pass the ball. First touch? Not bad. Ball control? Good enough. Can they dribble or beat a man with a bit of skill? Almost never.

Their biggest asset is their work-rate and commitment. They are not subtle, graceful players, they are all-round grafters. Fantastic grafters, you'd be right to argue, but at heart grafters nonetheless. They are not football wizards and when we need a wizard to break a game in a quarter-final, we don't have one.

We rarely produce ball-playing centre-halves, preferring the Terry throw-your-head-at-it type defenders, who are praised for bravery but rarely criticised for poor retention, positioning and anticipation.

Contrast that to a player like Fabio Cannavaro who was one of the world's top centre-halves for years not because of his physical presence - he's under 6ft - but through brilliant anticipation and reading of the game. He played intelligently. But our footballers don't seem to do intelligent.

On the few occasions down the years when we do produce a really creative, really skilful player such a Joe Cole, instead of teams being built around him, he's marginalised, asked to play roles which don't suit him and in doing so, nullify the very qualities which made him so special in the first place.

Cole was potentially the player of his generation. Had he gone to Spain aged 16 he might have fulfilled his potential. He could have been our Messi but he's a million miles from that now after ten years in English football. Injuries - possibly the type of injuries hinted at by Torres - have interrupted his career and he's never had a settled position. His talent has been wasted in British football.

It's as though no manager and perhaps not even the player himself really knew how he could effectively operate in English football.

Only in this country are the craftsmen of the game called luxury players; a tag which every player with talent who wasn't a workhorse has suffered from in this country from Bowles to Marsh to Hoddl, to Le Tissier.

Would someone such as Modric, had he been English, progressed through our youth development systems? I doubt it. He'd have been kicked out of youth football and maybe out of the game altogether.

Our culture, and it does comes from the fans, is to blame for this. I love to see a player kicked up in the air, I really do. I love to see a sliding tackle clean out the man and the ball and put him in the stands. I applaud it. But it doesn't mean it's the best thing for our game.

If the very nature of the league is making a brilliant player such as Torres question the sense of playing in it for more than a few years, we shouldn't just dismiss it as a pampered footballer whining, it is in effect a criticism of the very culture of English football and by extension of you and me.
 

elephanto

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
once upon a time in a friendly between Brazil & England, a young John Barnes displayed Brazilian-like skills scoring after showing off mazy dribbles.....

Unfortunately, plying his trade in the rough-house English League, he became a Liverpool legend but a half-fucked England Player.

Fat, bloated & finally disgracing himself as a failed Celtic Manager, this chap is but a flash in the pan ....

Joe Cole is the last of them with 'skilful football magic' in his DNA, but I think he has never reached his full potential....
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
England national team collapsed on the international scene after 1970 with the retirements of most of the 1966-70 World Cup squad. Scotland became the top British team. By the mid 70s, there was a partial recovery. There were two world class goalkeepers, Ray Clemence and Peter Shilton rotating shifts, anchored on a world class captain Kevin Keegan. The rest of the team was still sub-par in terms of World Cup standards. The recovery wasn't complete until 1980 when Steve Coppell, Bryan Robson, Glenn Hoddle etc. established themselves in the team.

Glenn Hoddle was almost universally acclaimed the most talented amongst them. In the early 80s, he with Osvaldo Ardiles (from Argentina's 1978 World Cup winning squad) anchoring Tottenham Hotspur midfield, they conjured up some of the most stylish football the English league had ever seen. However, to not much effect in terms of league titles. Predecessor to what happened at Newcastle United under Kevin Keegan management in the mid 90s.

Michel Platini lamented that Hoddle wasn't born in France and his talents were stifled by the English game.
 

elephanto

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
come to think of it, torres may be right - the blustery English game will hardly feature a truly mercurial player.

Kevin Keegan won European Footballer of the Year in consecutive years (78 & 79) but come World Cup 1982, he was an injury wreck ... even sneaking out to seek treatment by driving out of Barcelona & back quietly, as a result hardly feature in England's '82 Cup stint.

Hoddle another injury sick-note eventually .... now Michael Owen, another sick-note after being a meteor in the sky in 1998.

The English push-and-run, bone-crushing tackles and bull-dog machismo must have played a part down the years ....

English football is known more for bull-dog tenacity, grit, courage than skill, flair & finesse ....
 

Glaringly

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
I chance upon watching 1966 World Cup final and 1968 European Cup final between Manchester United and Benfica recently, where English triumph.

There are lots of good skillful and talented individual, unlike the British bull dog in later years. I wonder what's leads to the adoption of the hoof and physical style that we had seen through the 70s till the millennium. I am glad it's begin to change in recent years.
 

Glaringly

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Between these 2, Keegan was remember for his energy and a skillful dribbler, his success in Germany put him in the mold of a Continental player, unlike Hoddle who is a terrific passer and vision of ball but still very much British with his long ball.

England national team collapsed on the international scene after 1970 with the retirements of most of the 1966-70 World Cup squad. Scotland became the top British team. By the mid 70s, there was a partial recovery. There were two world class goalkeepers, Ray Clemence and Peter Shilton rotating shifts, anchored on a world class captain Kevin Keegan. The rest of the team was still sub-par in terms of World Cup standards. The recovery wasn't complete until 1980 when Steve Coppell, Bryan Robson, Glenn Hoddle etc. established themselves in the team.

Glenn Hoddle was almost universally acclaimed the most talented amongst them. In the early 80s, he with Osvaldo Ardiles (from Argentina's 1978 World Cup winning squad) anchoring Tottenham Hotspur midfield, they conjured up some of the most stylish football the English league had ever seen. However, to not much effect in terms of league titles. Predecessor to what happened at Newcastle United under Kevin Keegan management in the mid 90s.

Michel Platini lamented that Hoddle wasn't born in France and his talents were stifled by the English game.
 

Glaringly

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Joe Cole is the last of them with 'skilful football magic' in his DNA, but I think he has never reached his full potential....

Jack Wilshere is now displaying the skill which Joe Cole had in the past. I am glad he came from Arsenal and is playing good on the ground football, and now is on loan to Bolton.

Although it's nice he gets some games and a regular at Bolton, however I am appal by the typical British bulldog approach to the game by most of the players there. You can see the hush hush style, the very first thing when a defender/midifelder receieve a ball is to try and dash to a open place and hoof it up to Kevin Davis or to the far flang for the winger to chase. Although Owen Coyle is trying to change, unless he can or buy some new player next season, I hope Wenger takes Jack back, played him or loan him out again to some other team that play more possesion football.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Kevin Keegan won European Footballer of the Year in consecutive years (78 & 79) but come World Cup 1982, he was an injury wreck ... even sneaking out to seek treatment by driving out of Barcelona & back quietly, as a result hardly feature in England's '82 Cup stint.

That was sad and unfortunate for England in 1982.

Hoddle another injury sick-note eventually .... now Michael Owen, another sick-note after being a meteor in the sky in 1998.

Two other classy but injury-prone players of note was Trevor Francis and Steve Coppell, respectively the finest striker and winger of that era.

The English push-and-run, bone-crushing tackles and bull-dog machismo must have played a part down the years ....

English football is known more for bull-dog tenacity, grit, courage than skill, flair & finesse ....

Bryan Robson was one who managed his skills to workrate in the bulldog style very well. In the end, still out injured by World Cup 1990.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Between these 2, Keegan was remember for his energy and a skillful dribbler, his success in Germany put him in the mold of a Continental player, unlike Hoddle who is a terrific passer and vision of ball but still very much British with his long ball.

I remember reading a football magazine in 1980 or so. Diego Maradona, the upcoming best player in the world was interviewed. When asked besides himself, who'd he think was best player in the world then. He replied Kevin Keegan.
 

Glaringly

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
I remember reading a football magazine in 1980 or so. Diego Maradona, the upcoming best player in the world was interviewed. When asked besides himself, who'd he think was best player in the world then. He replied Kevin Keegan.

Certainly he is the best that England ever produce, beat Booby Charlton by a mile but not as popular in England ( perhaps because he is a poor manager ). Compare to Maradona, both have quite similar style, but Maradona is still a notch above him.
 

elephanto

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Certainly he is the best that England ever produce, beat Booby Charlton by a mile but not as popular in England ( perhaps because he is a poor manager ). Compare to Maradona, both have quite similar style, but Maradona is still a notch above him.

You can grouse about his temperament as a Manager.

But as a player, which English Player won European Footballer of the Year - Ballon d'Or twice - and in different leagues, once in England, once in German Bundesliga ?

Most footballers show excellence in one league only - I just checked it out - not even Zidane or Ronaldo (buck-tooth one), CONFIRMED : Kevin Keegan is the ONLY Ballon d'Or winner who won twice in 2 different leagues....

By his own admission, 'Mighty Mouse' Keegan, his determination, industry & spirit made up for he lacked in natural talent.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
You can grouse about his temperament as a Manager.

But as a player, which English Player won European Footballer of the Year - Ballon d'Or twice - and in different leagues, once in England, once in German Bundesliga ?

Most footballers show excellence in one league only - I just checked it out - not even Zidane or Ronaldo (buck-tooth one), CONFIRMED : Kevin Keegan is the ONLY Ballon d'Or winner who won twice in 2 different leagues....

By his own admission, 'Mighty Mouse' Keegan, his determination, industry & spirit made up for he lacked in natural talent.

Kevin Keegan was never considered a natural talent and talent-spotted at age 16-18 like Pele, Diego Maradona, Michael Owen or Wayne Rooney. By the time Bill Shankly spotted him and he made it bigtime with Liverpool in mid-70s when he was already nearing mid-20s. His year-to-year improvement rate henceforth was incredible and I don't think ever matched in first class football level.

There're only five Englishmen that Germans salute to and embrace as their own, with or without world wars or world cups. John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison, Ringo Starr and Kevin Keegan. Incidentally, all have to do with Liverpool in England and Hamburg in Germany.
 

jw5

Moderator
Moderator
Loyal
Jack Wilshere is now displaying the skill which Joe Cole had in the past. I am glad he came from Arsenal and is playing good on the ground football, and now is on loan to Bolton.

Although it's nice he gets some games and a regular at Bolton, however I am appal by the typical British bulldog approach to the game by most of the players there. You can see the hush hush style, the very first thing when a defender/midifelder receieve a ball is to try and dash to a open place and hoof it up to Kevin Davis or to the far flang for the winger to chase. Although Owen Coyle is trying to change, unless he can or buy some new player next season, I hope Wenger takes Jack back, played him or loan him out again to some other team that play more possesion football.
Jack Wishere has great potential, but his small frame is rather worrying. Unless he becomes as good as Messi, he could be subject to a lot of punishment as he gets more skilful and is preceived to be more dangerous to the opposition. I wish him well though, because he is certainly very skilful.
Bolton still play long balls to Kevin Davis, but under Owen Coyle, they have become a better passing team, and they will only get better.
The young player I reckon has the best chance of succeeding is Jack Rodwell of Everton. He is extremely skilful, packs a powerful shot, passes well, makes good decisions and is tall and powerful. He will be a full England international at the next world cup.

Kevin Keegan was a great player, but more so because of his work rate, determination, eye for goal and relentless running, than pure skill. The guy who replaced him at Liverpool, Kenny Dalglish, is in my opinion, a much better player. He invented the art of "playing in the hole" before guys like Beardsley and Bergkamp came along. He could score goals and more importantly, find the killer pass or run to create something. He helped make Ian Rush into a top goalscorer.
 

Glaringly

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
It's precisely his small frame with low centre of gravity that makes him able to control the ball better and harder to shake off, just like Messi, Maradona etc.., so not a problem, he is still young and he will be stronger.

Jack Rodwell is a good young player but not as exciting as Wilshere, yes with his first team experience with Everton, he is ahead of the game and should be a full international comes Euro 2012.

One of the potential failing of Wilshere is his temperament. He is a nasty little fellow, full of aggression and not only that invites harsh challenge from opponents but I notice his fellow team mates are reluctant to pass the ball to him. When he first came through and play with the first team, you can see him receiving the balls pretty often from his senior team mates sparking the remarks from Capello that it is unusual for senior member to do that. But not any more, and probably one of the reason he drops off from the Arsenal first team, because he did not have the ball that so often and his form drop, or could be the other way round. That's what I notice.

Dalglish is definitely more skillful in and around the box, however Keegan runs from center of the park and leaving a trail of pack hounding him down, it still needs a lot of skill IMO.

Jack Wishere has great potential, but his small frame is rather worrying. Unless he becomes as good as Messi, he could be subject to a lot of punishment as he gets more skilful and is preceived to be more dangerous to the opposition. I wish him well though, because he is certainly very skilful.
Bolton still play long balls to Kevin Davis, but under Owen Coyle, they have become a better passing team, and they will only get better.
The young player I reckon has the best chance of succeeding is Jack Rodwell of Everton. He is extremely skilful, packs a powerful shot, passes well, makes good decisions and is tall and powerful. He will be a full England international at the next world cup.

Kevin Keegan was a great player, but more so because of his work rate, determination, eye for goal and relentless running, than pure skill. The guy who replaced him at Liverpool, Kenny Dalglish, is in my opinion, a much better player. He invented the art of "playing in the hole" before guys like Beardsley and Bergkamp came along. He could score goals and more importantly, find the killer pass or run to create something. He helped make Ian Rush into a top goalscorer.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Between these 2, Keegan was remember for his energy and a skillful dribbler, his success in Germany put him in the mold of a Continental player, unlike Hoddle who is a terrific passer and vision of ball but still very much British with his long ball.

Glenn Hoddle's style was basically continental to begin with. Spurs manager then Keith Burkinshaw was willing to use that as part of his plans, and even imported Osvaldo Ardiles from Argentina, giving Hoddle his dream midfield partner, probably unavailable anywhere in Britain then.

Hoddle's strength in long range passing is precision defence splitting pass, the type that Diego Maradona used to destroy West Germany in 1986 and Brazil 1990. Of course, Maradona was quite a notch above, but Hoddle's nothing like the traditional English long ball, i.e. hit it high up front and let your forwards sought it out with opponent defenders.

That style fitted uncomfortably into the England national team under both Ron Greenwood and Bobby Robson, during which the multi-utility and dexterity of Kevin Keegan and Bryan Robson dominated.

Also, Hoddle had a successful spell with Monaco in France. He helped them win the French league and was voted Best Foreign Player. Quite short of Keegan's double win in European Footballer Of The Year, but a continentally acclaimed player nonetheless.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Kevin Keegan was a great player, but more so because of his work rate, determination, eye for goal and relentless running, than pure skill. The guy who replaced him at Liverpool, Kenny Dalglish, is in my opinion, a much better player. He invented the art of "playing in the hole" before guys like Beardsley and Bergkamp came along. He could score goals and more importantly, find the killer pass or run to create something. He helped make Ian Rush into a top goalscorer.

Many people assumed Kevin Keegan and Kenny Dalglish had same styles and roles because that handover of Liverpool No. 7 jersey was one of the most celebrated takeover of football jersey. But that's not the case.

Keegan played best somewhere between centre midfield and centre forward. He could control the game if he had the ball there, and decide whether to take it on the run forward or pass it on to another player in a better position. Dalglish played best inside the penalty box as support striker, where Ian Rush benefitted lots from his skills there.

When Keegan was in the penalty box, he usually turned one-touch striker with a rocket shot, flying header or scissors kick whatever. Dalglish was good at drawing defenders away, then releasing the ball short to his partner at killing range. However, Dalglish was famous for his deadly turn in the box too, i.e. turnaround 180 degrees and shoot at goal in a single motion even when back against the goalmouth.

Come to think of it, quite regrettable that there was no team Britain. Otherwise, we could have seen a triangle of Keegan (England), Dalglish (Scotland) and Rush (Wales) upfront. It'd surely take quite massive lot to defend against them.
 
Last edited:

elephanto

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Thread is 'England, English Players..'.
English : Keegan, Hoddle, Robson etc

non-English : Daglish (Scot), Rush(Wales)....
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Thread is 'England, English Players..'.
English : Keegan, Hoddle, Robson etc

non-English : Daglish (Scot), Rush(Wales)....

I think that Kenny Dalglish and Ian Rush had no choice (both parents Scots and both parents Welsh respectively). Some British players did have choices (with both parents from different home countries). Most famously was George Best, who turned down England outright and opted for Northern Ireland. More recently was Ryan Giggs. He played for England U-21, but somehow opted to confirm with Wales at 21. Incidentally, both cases happened at Manchester United.
 
Top