WP Supports UNEQUAL Treatment of Citizens?

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

i always wondered what is the difference between a "nationalist" and a "patriot"?

The Pledge is not the issue and never was the issue. Its a tool to bring the issuesthats disturbing the communities to light. You can't be silly as that to think that this is all about the pledge. Viswa is also one that is overly nationalistic.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

aiyoh that PaPee Ho Geok Choo was terrible and very disingenuous(had the audacity and gall to claim how passionate she was in this debate)...the ultimate blame-shifter and disgrace to her late father's legacy(Ho See Bee)...In response to NMP Viswa, she said that the unpatriotic sentiments of youths do not reflect the failure of the government in keeping to the tenets of the pledge....According to her, this situation is a product of passage of time rather than the government’s lack of commitment.

Forget the pledge or the constitution. Its merely a device or tool to introduce the issues or concerns. There were many that Viswa raised. The question is, are they valid and accurate.

Old man, Ng and other PAP MPs said it was not but did not provide convincing facts or stats to back up their claim. .

after reading some comments around the net (some of which i have pasted above) and talking to some people...i must say that i am now quite troubled over Harry's latest apparent conquer and divide race game...looks like some malays were suckered into believing that Harry was standing up for them and was their protector????....

Old Man went one better, he basically said that equality has no place in Singapore and gave his reasons. .

 

[Ramseth]

When Lee K.Y. became PM, he set out to learn Mandarin. Before Goh C.T. took over PM, he was sent to learn Malay. When Lee H.L. took over PM, he already knew English, Mandarin and Malay. I think this trilingualism is still prerequisite for the next PM.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

i think you have got the wrong end of the stick...i don't think Viswa or KJ or the late Raja (at the start) or any other rational & mature Singgie who believes in Singapore For Singaporeans would hold the view that race per se does not matter in s'pore society's multi-multi-multi context...

where the abovementioned would probably differ and depart from Harry & the present PaPs and maybe Low(if what scroobal opines is indeed true) and other race card politicos is that they would play down this aspect and try to slowly but surely push towards a more melting pot vision...that was quite evident between the 60s-70s but sadly started to erode from the 80s onwards and now has become worse 90s-2009


9) weird on August 23rd, 2009 4.07 pm Tang Liang Hong was accused as a Chinese chauvinist. When he called the PAP liars for saying he was a Chauvinist, he was sued. (See Tang Liang Hong Wiki.)

Here we have our esteemed MM Lee throwing a Brahmin / non Brahmin label at Mr Viswa. I think it is high time PM Lee sends MM Lee to ISA / ISD for mischeviously trying to play a divisive racial / caste card into our pledge.

Is MM Lee really so great that he is above all morals?

He reminds me of Nixon in the Nixon/ Frost movie / interview.

Sad man.

You can put together a Viswa and KJ potent combination, the PAP waving a Chinese flag will still prevail. Race matters, The Pledge notwithstanding!

 

[scroobal]

You are right. I do recall a Malay businessman telling me that it became a "constant drumbeat", a reminder of their position in Singapore.

perhaps another factor is the speak mandarin national campaign

 

[scroobal]

This debate I suspect has more than one dimension but I am forcing myself to stick to one dimension in order to keep my train of thought. I note that Viswa in his reply immediately agreed that the pledge was an aspiration. I suspect that he did that to avoid further confusion and to allow the issues to surface.

GMS also has a point in that the Pledge ( whether in aspirational or ideology mode) tends to force the ruling government to stick close to it. I got the impression that E-Jay was more on the issues.

Viswa might actually have introduced a powerful political weapon - the pledge as a "contract". Don't be surprised that the pledge gets resurrected again in parliament.

I tend to agree with you as the issues keep disappearing when the pledge becomes central. I wish more people look at the issues raised - Brahmin or otherwise.

Dear Scroobal

Granted none of us have any issues with the soup, the substance. What I have disagreement with is using the pledge as the container.

If the pledge serves as the "cover core values" of the nation as both Ejay and GMS ( in longer polemics) seems to want and if these values are linked to specific issues and policies. ........the end result will become apparent to all.

PAP will claim it is fulfilling the pledge, LKY thinks the pledge is a work in progress, the best that is yet to be, GMS will want to defend the pledge to the death linking it to the policies he believes in , ditto the SDP , ditto the RP and ditto the WP however reluctantly

I can't say I find that agreeable. I would rather debate the issues which Visawan raised on its own





Locke

 

[Ramseth]

You are right. I do recall a Malay businessman telling me that it became a "constant drumbeat", a reminder of their position in Singapore.

Exactly. It's a thinly veiled cautionary reminder to the Malays, vote PAP.

 

[scroobal]

I know that it refers to blurry eyed singaporeans who are proud of Singapore's success, NDP, rah rah spirit etc without realising that one party system is not the answer. Viswa was very much in that mold until now I guess. The term tends to be associated with right wing politics.

I believe KJ uses the term "nationalist" as well for this purpose.

i always wondered what is the difference between a "nationalist" and a "patriot"?

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

Harry's HIStory...

i recall reading an interview that melanie chew conducted with toh chin chye where toh recounted the period straight after independence...according to toh, he and other senior papees were apparently worried over Harry's health as he was seen breaking down crying on more than one occasion(not just the famous tears on 9/8/65 "all my life..." episode)...Harry was highly stressed over this period and hence his short recuperation at Changi Cottage...

Nobody can speak with the knowledge that I have; I knew the circumstances in which the Pledge was made. I admire the sentiments of Mr Raja. In August 1965, my worry was, what would the Malays in Singapore do, now that they knew they were a minority? When I returned on Aug9, on the advice of our Special Branch, I did not go back to my house. I stayed at Sri Temasek (in the Istana), which was my official residence. I stayed there for one week, then I went to Changi Cottage and stayed there for two months to make sure that everything subsided.
.

 

[scroobal]

I gave up on her. I agree that father was much better and very close to the working class.

aiyoh that PaPee Ho Geok Choo was terrible and very disingenuous(had the audacity and gall to claim how passionate she was in this debate)...the ultimate blame-shifter and disgrace to her late father's legacy(Ho See Bee)...In response to NMP Viswa, she said that the unpatriotic sentiments of youths do not reflect the failure of the government in keeping to the tenets of the pledge....According to her, this situation is a product of passage of time rather than the government’s lack of commitment.

Ramseth also seem to share the same. I have always wondered what the true picture is. Thus my attemtps to reach out to the politically sensitive malays. The message I get is that "all" opposition parties are chinese centric in the main despite having Indians standing as candidates. They tended to identify with JBJ and not with WP. Interestingly they felt that JBJ was looking for right vs wrong and not the racial equality angle that Raja stood for.

I think only SDP comes closest to be truly multi-racial and I know Chee has talked on this before. However SDP is not going anywhere with its style.

If you look at the opposition parties, then the Malays might not have anyone to turn to. Of Course PKMS has "accounting" problems szo lets leave them out.

I know that PA and PAP have absolute control of all Malay grassroots organisation except for AMP. Not much room to move.

after reading some comments around the net (some of which i have pasted above) and talking to some people...i must say that i am now quite troubled over Harry's latest apparent conquer and divide race game...looks like some malays were suckered into believing that Harry was standing up for them and was their protector????....

 

[scroobal]

Bro, I think you are more au fait with Malay sentiments than anyone else in the opposition camp. Why don't you help WP to do somehting along these lines.

What you have stated is what I have heard over the years.

Exactly. It's a thinly veiled cautionary reminder to the Malays, vote PAP.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

keep your eye on the real big prize bro...this is where Low tripped up at best, worse if what scroobal opines is actually true...

. What I have disagreement with is using the pledge as the container.

I can't say I find that agreeable. I would rather debate the issues which Visawan raised on its own

Locke

 

[scroobal]

He always had a thing about Changi cottage. Same cottage that Devan had his tryst.

The guy's history will be brought back everytime, someone disturbs the political quiet of parliament.

Harry's HIStory...

i recall reading an interview that melanie chew conducted with toh chin chye where toh recounted the period straight after independence...according to toh, he and other senior papees were apparently worried over Harry's health as he was seen breaking down crying on more than one occasion(not just the famous tears on 9/8/65 "all my life..." episode)...Harry was highly stressed over this period and hence his short recuperation at Changi Cottage...

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

don't you find it interesting and curious that no other parliamentarian (Pap, Oppo,NMP) who spoke up in this debate questioned the Pledge per se save for Harry and perhaps Low(if what you opine is actually true)..also ST/MSM was silent on the Pledge thinggy apart from giving Harry his usual disproportionate coverage...

This debate I suspect has more than one dimension but I am forcing myself to stick to one dimension in order to keep my train of thought. I note that Viswa in his reply immediately agreed that the pledge was an aspiration. I suspect that he did that to avoid further confusion and to allow the issues to surface.

GMS also has a point in that the Pledge ( whether in aspirational or ideology mode) tends to force the ruling government to stick close to it. I got the impression that E-Jay was more on the issues.

Viswa might actually have introduced a powerful political weapon - the pledge as a "contract". Don't be surprised that the pledge gets resurrected again in parliament.

I tend to agree with you as the issues keep disappearing when the pledge becomes central. I wish more people look at the issues raised - Brahmin or otherwise.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

what a difference 54 plus years makes when defining "nationalism" in s'pore's context eh?...compare and contrast "Faja 1954"; the "Big 6" and harry/goh/raja/toh/byrne and gang in the 50s-60s to 2009...really sad man Bro...

I know that it refers to blurry eyed singaporeans who are proud of Singapore's success, NDP, rah rah spirit etc without realising that one party system is not the answer. Viswa was very much in that mold until now I guess. The term tends to be associated with right wing politics.

I believe KJ uses the term "nationalist" as well for this purpose.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

yes looks to be the case...

Ramseth also seem to share the same. I have always wondered what the true picture is. Thus my attemtps to reach out to the politically sensitive malays. The message I get is that "all" opposition parties are chinese centric in the main despite having Indians standing as candidates. They tended to identify with JBJ and not with WP. Interestingly they felt that JBJ was looking for right vs wrong and not the racial equality angle that Raja stood for.


I know that PA and PAP have absolute control of all Malay grassroots organisation except for AMP. Not much room to move.

 

[Ramseth]

i always wondered what is the difference between a "nationalist" and a "patriot"?

A patriot is loyal to the country as a demographic entity. A nationalist is loyal to the nation as a political entity. One may then ask, what's the difference between a county and a nation? Let's not go far as one example that's close to us would be the merger and demerger with Malaysia. In merger, Malaysia was our nation; in independence, Singapore is our nation. A Malaysian nationalist in Singapore then might feel betrayed by the events whereas a Singapore patriot might think it it's better that way. Different motivations, but both in good faith.

 

[scroobal]

I think that old man knew what the pledge could do to the PAP and more importantly to his legacy. Thats why he came out swinging. The rest of the MPs are there for other reasons. Nearly all are not politicians and certainly not ideologues neither can they claim old man's legacy.

Low took to the pledge because all the issues that Viswa raised were true. So he talked about the "container" and not the substance and at the same time addressed his voters concern.

don't you find it interesting and curious that no other parliamentarian (Pap, Oppo,NMP) who spoke up in this debate questioned the Pledge per se save for Harry and perhaps Low(if what you opine is actually true)..also ST/MSM was silent on the Pledge thinggy apart from giving Harry his usual disproportionate coverage...

 

[scroobal]

Really sad indeed. Did you see the nationalistic sentiments in the SPH by Singaporeans after seeing the NDP.

Far cry from what Goh Keng Swee and Kevin Byrne did when they took office - cutting their pay to balance the budget.

what a difference 54 plus years makes when defining "nationalism" in s'pore's context eh?...compare and contrast "Faja 1954"; the "Big 6" and harry/goh/raja/toh/byrne and gang in the 50s-60s to 2009...really sad man Bro...

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

putting aside the "legacy" aspect...i wonder what say GCT, vivian, tharman, teo chee hean, george, shanmugam, raymond would have to say...

I think that old man knew what the pledge could do to the PAP and more importantly to his legacy. Thats why he came out swinging. The rest of the MPs are there for other reasons. Nearly all are not politicians and certainly not ideologues neither can they claim old man's legacy.
.