Who beat up Lim Chin Siong in Prison that let to his attempted suicide?

[scroobal]

There was no plot to kill anyone. It appears to be a small ruckus that got out of hand. The Govt naturally capitalised on this to split the group.

so Tan Jing Queetried to kill him and then later write a book called Comet in our Sky: Lim Chin Siong in History to said how great he is ???? WTF?!?!?!?!

 

[Checker]

Facinating thread. Couple of questions: Didn't the British Archieves say these people were not communists?

Obviously I don't know what happened exactly. But what causes a person to attempt suicide can involve many factors beyond a single fight or conversation. These people were under severe, extreme, mental duress. Fights, suspicion, paranoia common in these situations. Even not so clever interrogators should know how to manipulate this. There is a point in anybody in these conditions where anything, a little remark, can set a person off. The mental breakdown of a key leader certainly would have a dramatic effect on his followers, to the advantage of his captors.

 

[scroobal]

I will answer this in 2 parts.

The setup and protocol appears to follow prisoners of war where the ranking individual will maintain communication and a formal relationship with head warden, in this case the Superintendent. The rest will not acknowledge their sovereignty, their presence and their authority. LCS was no doubt the leader. It should be noted on the 18th, Tan Jing Quee greeted the Superintendent but I understand in a rough and rude manner. It therefore does indicate that there was a grab for power and he was head for a day until the suicide attempt. It should also be noted that LCS allegedly attempted to kill himself with a knife in the refractory block but it was snatched away by another detainee. He was then found slumped in the rattan chair.

LCS was the singular iconic figure and none of them even when put together could outshine him in the eyes of the masses. Bear in mind that when old man wrote his memoirs, you could see that despite the decades, he rated him highly by covering extensively about him. LCS might have faced some issues amongst his group but he by nature was not one to enagage in discussions like others would. During his detention at ST John Island, the rest were in heated discussions on theories, applications etc and it caused various rifts but LCS never got involved in it. Both he and Samad were ranking individuals within the movement and I suspect knew their leadership position.

My sense is that the English speaking chaps were looking for action and went for a power grab which badly backfired. Ho Piao was detained for 18 years and is recognised as one of the stronger ones. After this episode, he remained a aloof. Upon his release, he spent a few years here before leaving for London for good with his new family. He spent nearly 30 years away before passing on in London. He never made a comment in public and they claimed that he went into exile. I suspect that he also wanted to get away from the crowd of his fellow travellers. He was more comfortable with the second generation such as Francis who were not privy to the events of the day.

Dear Scroo If your source reporting and accounts are accurate. There are two interesting points of note. Firstly LCS was ostracized. Even before the incident. It is telling as such that amongst the political prisoners , he would be the only one being friendly with the guards whereas the rest were giving them the cold treatment. I do wonder how strongly the communist cell and pecking order was kept to in prison . i,e rank and power. A modern day example would be jailed gang members whose power outside over the gang , extended very much inside. Inside he was not the hero that he was outside and that is extremely surprising. Locke

 

[scroobal]

The British archives are huge. So are the archives of Singapore and Malaysia. There are many contradicting facts. I can pick one which says that Churchill drank whiskey but not single malt while other facts says otherwise. One conclusively fact is that he drank and he drank during office hours and while Parliament was in session.

LCS and company were fighting for a cause. It has nothing to do with liberalism, capitalism, or any other cause except for Marxism where a classless society is an ideal. Any intellectual of that era would be proud to be associated with that cause. It was a selfless fight. Unfortunately many did not want to be labelled a communist because of the atrocities committed by their associates and them. There was also a taint on the family which would bear the brunt of abuse from the community. To make it clear, if they were not communists, then who were the communists. It certainly wasn't people in commerce, trade etc that opposed the Govt. The issue is that CPM was a proscribed and banned organisation. It's members could not contest elections. Those in Barisan and even the PAP in the early years could not be MPs if they admitted being. So the operating rule was to say that I like the bun, the onions, the mustard, the salad and especially the beef patty all put together but I don't like,hamburgers.Bear in mind that their kids a now well respected surgeons in SGH, lawyers in good firms and the impact would have been huge if they admitted to anything.

Agree on your second paragraph. ISD got everything they wanted but they will never ever reveal the full picture. They have their informants within the group and they skilful interrogations is only valid if the information revealed can be corroborated. I remember the last British CP after retirement was asked if he knew LCS was a communist, he said no. The Head of Special Branch or ISD does not share reports with the CP. The Police Force is their logistical support framework. The CP does not have access to these information.

I can tell you that there is clear documentary evidence of LCS corresponding with Southern Command of the CPM. The associate who led to it's recovery was sent to to London to begin his studies and subsequently went to HK. All facilitated by the authorities to start a new life.

Facinating thread. Couple of questions: Didn't the British Archieves say these people were not communists? Obviously I don't know what happened exactly. But what causes a person to attempt suicide can involve many factors beyond a single fight or conversation. These people were under severe, extreme, mental duress. Fights, suspicion, paranoia common in these situations. Even not so clever interrogators should know how to manipulate this. There is a point in anybody in these conditions where anything, a little remark, can set a person off. The mental breakdown of a key leader certainly would have a dramatic effect on his followers, to the advantage of his captors.

 

[Forvendet]

The name Lim Chin Siong rings a bell in my recollection of grandparents' tales. They and their peers were solidly behind LKY and against LCS then since the idea of a Chinese-speaking government struck fear into folks like them and communities like theirs. That there'll be a Chinese majority government was a sure thing but please, let them be English-speaking Chinese.

 

[Checker]

Think the above are all very interesting thoughts.

I think it's not whether they subscribed to communism in terms of broad ideology. But to the point of whether any of them were ever consistently implicated with violent insurgency, guerrila warfare, "terrorism" of the more militant wing of communism, I think there is little evidence.

I'm be skeptical if any real intel can be obtained from the sort of "torture" they went through. Any dimwit controlling one's most basic needs of food, shelter, freedom can easily manipulate people to turn on themselves. (Smart bosses/ politicians can do this with even less control in full democracies.) But how to know who says what is true or not under extreme circumstances? But goal of these operations were hardly for the truth anyway. Simply to severely disrupt the political opponents and get away with it. With success, actually.

 

[Checker]

Bear in mind that their kids a now well respected surgeons in SGH, lawyers in good firms and the impact would have been huge if they admitted to anything.

Not sure if children should be affected or blamed for their father's activities before they were born.

But I think a roaring success of these operations has been the shame and silence, and maybe even guilt associated with them. Guilt of capitulating under duress, residual trauma like what kidnapping/ hostage survivors must feel.

Perhaps in today's (and future) climates, it might even be fashionable for a surgeon or lawyer to say his father was someone who fought for some ideal. Lost and humiliated, but well, at least tried to do something big. Not sure how many of these children's children can say that of their fathers/ mothers. But we're probably not going to get there yet... too kiasu.

 

[yellowarse]

Lost and humiliated, but well, at least tried to do something big.

Does this guy - who spent 20 years under detention without trial - sound like a lost and humiliated man?

[video=youtube;Zk-TH257ggI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk-TH257ggI[/video]

 

[scroobal]

Did they stab someone - No, did they shoot anyone - No, did they steal or rob anyone - No, Did they commit any violence - No. So why do you think that they were detained in the first place. Why do you think a Minister would sign a detention order or a high court judge every 2 years extend the detention? Maybe the minister did it for political ends. The high court judge probably did it because he feared the political leaders of the day or he was promised a discount for buying Nassim Jade. Why would a Govt detain couple of men who can't take on a platoon of NS men? why were they feared.

As to the torture, why did none of them admit he was a communists. Why did Chia Thye Poh refuse to yield when he was tortured? After all they were deprived of "food, shelter, freedom".

I suppose the dimwits have the answers.

I think it's not whether they subscribed to communism in terms of broad ideology. But to the point of whether any of them were ever consistently implicated with violent insurgency, guerrila warfare, "terrorism" of the more militant wing of communism, I think there is little evidence.

 

[scroobal]

Nobody is blaming the kids. How did you get such an impression? They certainly were not humiliated. Again why do think they were humiliated? Many people admire them for their tenacity, their resolve and fortitude no matter however misguided they. Their spirits could not be broken. They did not yield and there spent years of detention.

Not sure if children should be affected or blamed for their father's activities before they were born.

But I think a roaring success of these operations has been the shame and silence, and maybe even guilt associated with them. Guilt of capitulating under duress, residual trauma like what kidnapping/ hostage survivors must feel.

Perhaps in today's (and future) climates, it might even be fashionable for a surgeon or lawyer to say his father was someone who fought for some ideal. Lost and humiliated, but well, at least tried to do something big. Not sure how many of these children's children can say that of their fathers/ mothers. But we're probably not going to get there yet... too kiasu.

 

[Checker]

Nobody is blaming the kids. How did you get such an impression? They certainly were not humiliated. Again why do think they were humiliated? Many people admire them for their tenacity, their resolve and fortitude no matter however misguided they. Their spirits could not be broken. They did not yield and there spent years of detention.

No… what I mean is that humiliating, degrading, wrong things were done to all these people by their captors. That they all withstood this is indeed admirable.

But there’re many more (100-200?) who were arrested, not just the few who spoke up / wrote books. Many made to sign confessions, maybe implicate their comrades, cowed never to speak up again, detained months to years. And many have continued to remained silent. Maybe even their children don’t know. How many more attempted suicide or even killed themselves, we don’t know. What I’m saying is that all these things done to these people must, at least in some (or many), caused great and perhaps lasting psychological suffering. Some are strong; some manage to move on. But I believe some must have suffered for years after release. Just as you see in hostages kidnapped/ threatened for years, from soldiers, survivors in war… some will always suffer for a long time, in their own world of guilt, humiliation, fear, even after it all ends.

Many ex-detainees are already in their 70s, 80s or gone, not much time to get their stories… But it is good that a few are writing. Believe there’s lots more history still. Maybe someone from new Yale-NUS College will dare, or some brave lawyer look into this (but I doubt) … Forget about those political commentators on TV though.

 

[batman1]

No… what I mean is that humiliating, degrading, wrong things were done to all these people by their captors. That they all withstood this is indeed admirable.

But there’re many more (100-200?) who were arrested, not just the few who spoke up / wrote books. Many made to sign confessions, maybe implicate their comrades, cowed never to speak up again, detained months to years. And Many ex-detainees are already in their 70s, 80s or gone, not much time to get their stories… But it is good that a few are writing. Believe there’s lots more history still. Maybe someone from new Yale-NUS College will dare, or some brave lawyer look into this (but I doubt) … Forget about those political commentators on TV though.

More ex-detainees and more clever people are waiting for the Old Fart to kick the bucket before they speak up,notwithstanding the son is a useless bugger.

 

[yellowarse]

More ex-detainees and more clever people are waiting for the Old Fart to kick the bucket before they speak up,notwithstanding the son is a useless bugger.

Yes, once old fart goes, all the lies would be exposed and hitherto unheard stories told. Singapore's history needs to be rewritten in a climate of intellectual freedom and fearlessness.

 

[refulgence]

Yes, once old fart goes, all the lies would be exposed and hitherto unheard stories told. Singapore's history needs to be rewritten in a climate of intellectual freedom and fearlessness.

Long overdue, but any day now ....

 

[scroobal]

I don't think it's going to happen. The family of Lee Siew Choh have decided not publish his memoirs despite it near completion. Lim Hock Siew has decided not to do so. I don't think the climate of fear is prevalent as in the past. The central characters were very close associates of old man at one point in time. It was old man that made it possible for the likes of Lim Hock Siew, Poh Soo Kai, Woodhull, the Puthucheary brothers, Jamit Singh to meet Lim Chin Siong, Fong Swee Suan, Devan Nair and the Middle Road Gang. Old man was the legal advisor to The Chinese School student organisations, the leftist trade unions as well As the Socialist Club of the University of Singapore. For instance Tommy Koh was providing legal advice to Dr Lee Siew Choh, Lim Hock Siew and Barisan during the merger referendum when he found out that Dr Goh Keng Swee was lying during his radio broadcast about elements of the Federation constitution.

The issue is not them but us who don't even know who the players are and what our history is all about. The fact that we can't even link the atrocities of the CPM and it's leaders is already quite frightening. The fact that nearly all the children of those incarcerated were placed in quite rewarding Govt and GLC positions including Janil becoming an MP and another standing for Aljunied ward under the PAP banner should hint of the proximity of the individuals and old man. 2 of the High Court Judge holding ranking position are children of first line communist leaders.

Nobody is going to write a book and open up a can of worms. The Comet in the sky did not reveal anything. It was a tribute to Lim Chin Siong to pay penance for an error in judgement by the main protagonist that led to the suicide attempt. It was his way of saying sorry. Zaid Zahari's book is about his personal experience with a lot of abstract notions but it too did not reveal anything. The fact that he went to Chin Peng in Thailand and then to Beijing should tell us something. Chin Peng was certainly not selling ice kachang in the Malaysian jungle.

The poster children for our collective ignorance must surely be Martyn See and Seelan Pillay. Imagine writing about Robert Ho and his Cheng San San epsiode not knowing his mental position despite it being common knowledge before even Martyn was born. It may explain why the old man and the PAP can continue to make a fool of us as we know not what we are and our history.

More ex-detainees and more clever people are waiting for the Old Fart to kick the bucket before they speak up,notwithstanding the son is a useless bugger.

 

[scroobal]

The Saga continues

Well Chia Thye Poh was an elected member of parliament and a member of Barsian and a university lecturer. The party's front line was decimated when they were arrested and detained under Coldstore. Only prominent chap holding the flag was party leader Dr Lee Siew Choh.

One fine day, Chia Thia Poh instead of letting sleeping dogs lie claimed to have found an article about the attempted murder of Lim Chin Siong by the authorities and ran it in the Party Newsletter. The Govt reacted. He was charged in court as the editor and another Barisan MP Koo Young was charged as the publisher under the sedition Act.

Football Ganesan as DPP frames the charges and charged them in court. Then comes another well known player and one time hit man for the old man - Francis Seow takes the prosecution lead in the trial and the can of worms opens up. Opposing him is TT Rajah, Communist China's favourite son and Bank of China most respected tenant. What was meant to be internal coup de tat becomes a tactical error of judgement on the part of the communist front. This was the infamous trial that laid to bare the innards of the events that led to the suicide attempt. It was also the trial where Rajah and Seow duel for their masters and Rajah calls Seow a "Kempetai Dog" in open court.

More on the trial to follow.

So what Happened?So where was Chia Thye Poh when this happened.

 

[lockeliberal]

Scroo,

My studies of both the Columbian mafias and the IRA as a poor student showed that the chain of command outside prison was usually carried into prison to. Taking your account as true would it not be possible that the CPM removed LCS as the leader and might have said he was a traitor in some form . leading to his mental collapse and attempted suicide.

To be fair even in communist parties else where, being declared a traitor , and being executed for being one was common in Communist Party History


Locke

Actually it caught the authorities by surprise. They got excited and without checking spiked a story amongst the press that it was a battle of wills over ideology to wit Maoism and Russian revisionism with followers of both factions fighting it out. One of those named was Dr Lim Hock Siew who was in E Block and physically distant and separate from the refractory block where Lim Chin Siong and other some other detainees were held. Dr Lim sued successfully while a detainee and caused another incident in the process. The press that carried the story relented and paid damages except for Sin Chew Jit Poh. They purposely fought the case and revealed in court that it was the ISD that gave them the story. Thus it came out in the open and embarrassed the Govt. Dr Lim recently sued again on the exact same subject when ex SPH Editor Peter Lim forgot to check his facts and Carried the same incident in a book that he edited. Again successfully. Will write about the events later today or tomorrow as it quite long and have to rush off now.

 

[scroobal]

I am still waiting for the seminal work on this part of history. So far only 2 chaps, both Australian acdemics have begun peeling bits and pieces away.

By the way, it's common knowledge within this interesting circle that as along old man is alive, he will not open up the records as it will also show his tainted hand. He kicks the bucket and a neutral party will be tempted to open up the ISD files. Believe me those that have been incarcerated in the past and their families would rather have the old man and his son alive and kicking to avoid the files being opened.Here is an exampleThe 4 highest ranking communists in Singapore's history is Samad, Eu Chooi Yip, PV Sharma and the Plen. Samad's nephew holds senior position in a stat board and is a scholarship holder. Eu's 2 daughters are in SPH, Sharma's daughter is in a NUS Policy institute and Plen son is a Singapore Technologies. Except for Samad's nephew, all were placed by order of old man on the advice of Goh KS. No application, no interview, no nothing.

The younger keen ones like Seelan, Martyn and Isrizal should first do their homework before opening their mouth.

Many ex-detainees are already in their 70s, 80s or gone, not much time to get their stories… But it is good that a few are writing. Believe there’s lots more history still. Maybe someone from new Yale-NUS College will dare, or some brave lawyer look into this (but I doubt) … Forget about those political commentators on TV though.

 

[scroobal]

It is possible as the CPM takes it's command from Chian and not the Soviets. When the revisionist split occurred. LCS was leaning towards the Soviets and one of the allegations heaped on him was that he was revisionist by some of his fellow detainees.

My sense is no. LCS is known the masses. Tan Jing Quee and Ho Piao are from the English stream and virtual unknowns. It does not serve the communist cause. They worked with him extensively and he dealth with Southern Command. Anyway in the hierachy, Tan Jing Quee is a 2 bit player. He was not detained during coldstore. He was detained subsequently and was released after 3 years in the first instance and 3 months after the 2nd instance. They needed him more than they needed these two chaps. I think it was local drama.

There were 3 groups of detainees and all three had leaders. LCS was leader in refractory block , Poh Soo Kai in the Medium Security block and Lim Hock Siew in E block. They still had Eu, Samad and Plen at large. Samad under their very noses.

My studies of both the Columbian mafias and the IRA as a poor student showed that the chain of command outside prison was usually carried into prison to. Taking your account as true would it not be possible that the CPM removed LCS as the leader and might have said he was a traitor in some form . leading to his mental collapse and attempted suicide. To be fair even in communist parties else where, being declared a traitor , and being executed for being one was common in Communist Party HistoryLocke

 

[scroobal]

I would agree and very evident in Malaysia where even up to the 80s, they were taking out traitors. But I can't recall any in Singapore's case. I found it strange that none seemed to have occurred in Singapore and no was unveiled as a traitor except for Chin Peng's predecessor. They however did undertake the practice that those who were released were quarantined for long periods.

To be fair even in communist parties else where, being declared a traitor , and being executed for being one was common in Communist Party HistoryLocke