View from the other side - Jakarta Post on the warship naming issue

[Agoraphobic]

The home side does not view these marines as terrorists. They are soldiers.

Cheers!

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...ates-tni-chief-defends-usman-and-harun.html-1

Row with Singapore escalates
as TNI chief defends Usman
and Harun
Margareth S. Aritonang, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta | World | Mon, February 10 2014, 1:45 PM

In the latest volley in the ongoing quarrel between the two nations, Indonesian Military (TNI) commander Gen. Moeldoko warned Singapore to stop regarding Second Sgt. Usman bin Haji Muhammad Ali and Second Cpl. Harun bin Said, the two marines after whom a Navy ship was recently named, as terrorists.
The recent christening of the Navy corvette KRI Usman-Harun 359 has drawn strong protest from Singapore, which has condemned Indonesia for reopening the dark memory of the deadly bombing carried out by the two marines against civilians in the city-state in 1965.
"I cannot accept it if Usman and Harun are represented as terrorists. They were marines. They were state actors," Moeldoko told the press on the sidelines of a closed-door meeting with lawmakers from the House of Representatives Commission I overseeing defense and foreign affairs.
Moeldoko emphasized that the TNI was firm in its decision to name the ship after the two marines and would resist any foreign intervention that would harm Indonesia's sovereignty.
"Basically, we are willing to cooperate with anybody, but we will not bend when it comes to the sovereignty of the country," he said.
Usman, whose real name was Janatin, and Harun, whose real name was Tohir bin Mandar, were tasked with infiltrating Singapore during the confrontation with newly independent Malaysia in the 1960s.
Both were found guilty of carrying out the MacDonald House bombing, which killed three people and injured 33 others, and were executed in Singapore in 1968.
Tension between Indonesia and Singapore over the matter has mounted, with the Singaporean government suddenly canceling a scheduled bilateral defense meeting and withdrawing an invitation of TNI officers to attend the Singapore Airshow that is set to kick off at the Changi Exhibition Centre on Tuesday.
The withdrawal of the invitation moved all Indonesian defense officials to cancel their plan to attend the airshow, during which the Indonesian Air Force's Jupiter Aerobatic is scheduled to be displayed.
"We will go on with the plan to display the Jupiter Aerobatic in the show. But, we are ready to withdraw if we are not given time to do so," Moeldoko said.

 

[Rogue Trader]

The home side does not view these marines as terrorists. They are soldiers.

Duh.... it's obvious Indonesia will say that right?

"I cannot accept it if Usman and Harun are represented as terrorists. They were marines. They were state actors,"

There is a distinction when soldiers die in uniforms or when they die performing duties in plain clothes or dress in enemies' uniform. In later cases, they are usually not given full military honours because it's not conventional warfare.

 

[THE_CHANSTER]

There are always two sides to every story. As usual, SPH only reports on the side which fits their political (PAP) agenda.
It is rather sad that something as innocuous as the naming of Indonesian war ships after two terrorist (marines) has led to pretty serious deterioration in bilateral relations.

There is only one loser in this game of tit for tat brinksmanship...and it's not Indonesia.

 

[3_M]

Duh.... it's obvious Indonesia will say that right?



There is a distinction when soldiers die in uniforms or when they die performing duties in plain clothes or dress in enemies' uniform. In later cases, they are usually not given full military honours because it's not conventional warfare.

US Special force and Delta force also fight in civilian clothing. That doesn't deny them from getting a state funeral. They are after all soldiers died in line of their duty.

 

[Rogue Trader]

Indonesia is one of the SEA countries with the bloodiest history of nation building. Yet out of thousands of martyrs they decided to choose 2 NCOs who carried out foreign bombing mission of soft targets... you guys decide if this is acceptable or not...

 

[Brubeck]

Indons must be damn tu lan about Singapore's involvement in spying from the wikileaks.

This loss of trust is very hard to restore again. Pinky fucked it up again.

 

[Rogue Trader]

US Special force and Delta force also fight in civilian clothing. That doesn't deny them from getting a state funeral.

Just because US does it, it doesn't mean it's right

 

[sleaguepunter]

The home side does not view these marines as terrorists. They are soldiers.

Cheers!

if the 2 indons had wear their marine uniforms during their infliation, planting of the bombs (i disregard the civilian loss of lives first) and then got caught still wearing the uniform, i grant them they are just simple soldiers/marines doing their duty.

but the 2 arseholes were in mufti, which made them spies and spies get executed, period.

 

[cheesecake]

Indonesia is one of the SEA countries with the bloodiest history of nation building. Yet out of thousands of martyrs they decided to choose 2 NCOs who carried out foreign bombing mission of soft targets... you guys decide if this is acceptable or not...

Moreover, war was not declared. How then to explain an incursion to a foreign country and have their enlisted men in plainclothes placed bombs and injure innocent citizens?

 

[Rogue Trader]

There is only one loser in this game of tit for tat brinksmanship...and it's not Indonesia.

Indeed. singapore will always be a whipping boy in regional geo politics. Pinky and his paper generals better not act yaya.

 

[3_M]

Just because US does it, it doesn't mean it's right

There is really nothing right or wrong. If the operational situation requires it, then it makes sense.

 

[sleaguepunter]

US Special force and Delta force also fight in civilian clothing. That doesn't deny them from getting a state funeral. They are after all soldiers died in line of their duty.

these bunch are paid killers of USA. When they are capture by the taliban, they get their penis chop off and put into their own mouth before their heads get chop off.

 

[Rogue Trader]

There is really nothing right or wrong. If the operational situation requires it, then it makes sense. Moreover International law don't outlaw anything fighting in plain clothes.

I'm not sure about what you wrote.. maybe an ex serviceman here can comment. But I know the Geneva convention (and treatment of POWs) differentiates between conventional warfare and asymmetrical warfare.


Also the Delta force guys are definitely not fighting conventional warfare. If they get caught, most likely they will be featured in a youtube clip days later with their sabre-welding captors.

 

[escher]

Anything that is done to fuck the Stinkapore PAP regime or to make those PAP fuckturds unhappy is good with me.
I am very happy that Stinkapore PAP bastards are unhappy as those PAP bastards do not represent me and they stolen my country
and brought in foreign trash as 3rd class citizens displacing singaporeans into the 4th class dwellers in country stolen from us.

I BE VERY HAPPY IF STINKAPORE PAP DECLARE WAR AS THEN I CAN GET TO MY GUN AND TURN THAT ON PAP FUCKTURDS AND THEIR RUNNING DOGS

 

[3_M]

I'm not sure about what you wrote.. maybe an ex serviceman here can comment. But I know the Geneva convention (and treatment of POWs) differentiates between conventional warfare and asymmetrical warfare.


Also the Delta force guys are definitely not fighting conventional warfare. If they get caught, most likely they will be featured in a youtube clip days later with their sabre-welding captors.

Whether it an conventional or special ops, their fate will be the same when capture by Taliban. Geneva convention don't allow fighting in eneny's uniform though impersonation is acceptable.


Modern laws of war regarding conduct during war (jus in bello), such as the 1949 Geneva Conventions, provide that it is unlawful for belligerents to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, such as wearing distinctive uniform or other distinctive signs visible at a distance, carrying weapons openly, and conducting operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. Impersonating soldiers of the other side by wearing the enemy’s uniform is allowed, though fighting in that uniform is unlawful perfidy, as is the taking of hostages.

 

[wMulew]

When State sponsored Military personal attack military installation or military targets, that's 1 country fighting another in an armed conflict. Such soldiers dying in the line of duty are war heroes

When state sponsored military personal attack CIVILIAN targets. That is called state sponsored terrorism. Those who die during such activities are called Terrorist, know the difference.

Does not matter if it's Indonesia, US or any other country doing it. It's still terrorism

 

[tanakow]

Now we can see why defense budget need to be high. If not the next volley will be a threats to attack us if we dint keep quiet.

Indeed. singapore will always be a whipping boy in regional geo politics. Pinky and his paper generals better not act yaya.

 

[3_M]

Now we can see why defense budget need to be high. If not the next volley will be a threats to attack us if we dint keep quiet.

Then the onus is on PAP on how to deescalate the tension they started. We have more to loss than Indonesia if it carries on.

 

[Travellor]

if the 2 indons had wear their marine uniforms during their infliation, planting of the bombs (i disregard the civilian loss of lives first) and then got caught still wearing the uniform, i grant them they are just simple soldiers/marines doing their duty.

but the 2 arseholes were in mufti, which made them spies and spies get executed, period.

they got caught spying, and committing sabotage and mayhem and in the ensuing carnage killed 2 civilians.... and they got caught and executed.....
so there ... justice dealt swiftly....if indonesia choose to honour them now, then Indonesia felt that what they were doing then was the correct thing since they were looking to hammer the Israelis hiding in Sg as part of their just cause.....


the last thing SG wanna do now is to wade into this nonsense because the Indonesians were probably baiting those dumbasses in the MFA after the massive expose on their fucking sneaky tactics that enabled the australians to spy on them.

that is not a very neighbourly thing to do...... its kinda like someone sends his dogs to poo in your garden and you swing a garden rake and smashes the little bastards dead....then after that you decided that you allow your pervy other neighbour to climb on your fence to go take a peep at the dead dog's owner's teenage daughter whilst shes showering......


and you want what again??? justice???




SMLJ lor......

 

[Rogue Trader]

If regional conflict ever breaks out Singapore will stand to lose. Best to use the defense budget to appease Indon generals through bribes or marathon KTV sessions