The Warthog aka Bronco

[Papsmearer]

Dear S

The Warrior was to heavy for the Tans. If they could have used it they would have



Locke

Incorrect. Warrior IFVs in Astan for sure. When in with the Brits under Operation Herrick, served with the ISAF and regrettably over 20 soldiers killed in their Warriors in Astan.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear PAP

I stand corrected. Terrain specific issues in Helmand ?


Locke

 

[Papsmearer]

Dear PAP

I stand corrected. Terrain specific issues in Helmand ?




Locke

The whole of Astan is one big terrain issue. i have talked to US armour people who were in Astan, u definitely want to bring your armour. Even if its a 55 ton Leo 2. Not so much terrain issues as IED issues. Those talibans are using 50KG and heavier roadside bomb. that's fucking crazy, it will vaporise an unarmoured 3 tonner.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear PAP

Unfortunately the heart of the conflict is not on the roads, where 60 ton MBTs and 30 ton IFVs can traverse and patrol in peace or on big towns.

Its in small little deserted villages with tracks dirt roads, where heavy vehicles would die underneath wear tear and terrain over long distances.



Locke

 

[Cestbon]

The whole of Astan is one big terrain issue. i have talked to US armour people who were in Astan, u definitely want to bring your armour. Even if its a 55 ton Leo 2. Not so much terrain issues as IED issues. Those talibans are using 50KG and heavier roadside bomb. that's fucking crazy, it will vaporise an unarmoured 3 tonner.

Fighting with a suicide army/rebel. Nothing can win over them. Not even nuclear can win because they are scatter around the world.
The only way can win is to teach them how valuable is life.

 

[Papsmearer]

Dear PAP

Unfortunately the heart of the conflict is not on the roads, where 60 ton MBTs and 30 ton IFVs can traverse and patrol in peace or on big towns.

Its in small little deserted villages with tracks dirt roads, where heavy vehicles would die underneath wear tear and terrain over long distances.



Locke

What do u want me to say to such an idiotic statement? Wait, I will call all the US and ISAF commanders to remove their MBTs and IFVs right away, ok?

 

[Papsmearer]

Fighting with a suicide army/rebel. Nothing can win over them. Not even nuclear can win because they are scatter around the world.
The only way can win is to teach them how valuable is life.

They cannot completely win. They just want to hold them off long enough to train up some Astan army and get out.

 

[sleaguepunter]

mr lock,

ever serve in armour? i am talking from experience. if the terrain is too tough for the warrior, then it will be too tough for the bronco/warthog. if saf bionix can charge up 50 degree gradient hill (yes i done it, scared the hell out of me), i believe the warrior should have no problem. and unlike papsmear who a appointment holder, who spend more time in the landrover during excerise, i was smashing my head inside the gunner compartment of the bionix as it roar down the toyota axis.

the only way to fight in mountainous terrain, is to deploy light infantry or mountain troops. So i find it a bit strange there not much news of the Gurkha Rifle Regiment being deploy in Afganistan, which will be in their element fighting against enemies that their forefathers had done in the past.

anyway the conflicts will last forever. until the elections is fair, there wont be peace in the region.

 

[Papsmearer]

mr lock,

ever serve in armour? i am talking from experience. if the terrain is too tough for the warrior, then it will be too tough for the bronco/warthog. if saf bionix can charge up 50 degree gradient hill (yes i done it, scared the hell out of me), i believe the warrior should have no problem. and unlike papsmear who a appointment holder, who spend more time in the landrover during excerise, i was smashing my head inside the gunner compartment of the bionix as it roar down the toyota axis.

the only way to fight in mountainous terrain, is to deploy light infantry or mountain troops. So i find it a bit strange there not much news of the Gurkha Rifle Regiment being deploy in Afganistan, which will be in their element fighting against enemies that their forefathers had done in the past.

anyway the conflicts will last forever. until the elections is fair, there wont be peace in the region.

Locke always talks like he knows something about military affairs, but he really doesn't. If what he says is true, i.e. the heart of the conflict is in small deserted villages with dirt roads, than the US and ISAF will be more than happy to leave the taliban in control of these areas. No enemy ever won the war by holding small deserted villages. U have to take the towns, capital, provincial capitals, transportation hubs, etc. The Taliban has attacked towns, outposts, garrisons, even the capital. In the past, some towns are entirely sympathetic to and in control by the Taliban. U need armour to go in and screw these guys up. There is definitely fighting in the hills and in mountains not accessible by armour or any other vehicles. And its done on foot by the infantry. However, in order for these soldiers to be able to conduct their patrols and what not, they need to be supplied. This is where u need the armour to escort your resupply convoys. But I guess this is where Locke loses it.

 

[BBSEE]

Locke always talks like he knows something about military affairs, but he really doesn't. If what he says is true, i.e. the heart of the conflict is in small deserted villages with dirt roads, than the US and ISAF will be more than happy to leave the taliban in control of these areas. No enemy ever won the war by holding small deserted villages. U have to take the towns, capital, provincial capitals, transportation hubs, etc. The Taliban has attacked towns, outposts, garrisons, even the capital. In the past, some towns are entirely sympathetic to and in control by the Taliban. U need armour to go in and screw these guys up. There is definitely fighting in the hills and in mountains not accessible by armour or any other vehicles. And its done on foot by the infantry. However, in order for these soldiers to be able to conduct their patrols and what not, they need to be supplied. This is where u need the armour to escort your resupply convoys. But I guess this is where Locke loses it.

Hi Pap, wiki here and still having trouble logging in with wikiphile.

A-Stan is a mountainous country and armour and its firepower is unfortunately not enough to intimidate the Talibans who can appear and disappear at will back into the mountains easily. The problem of a Counter-insurgency is that it is very difficult, if not impossible to win a Low intensity conflict like the one in A-stan with superior firepower alone.

In looking for examples, we need not look too far but a little nearer geographically and a little backward chronographically in areas like Aceh or East Timur. ABRI (or what TNI was known then) had difficulties in winning despite their advantages in numbers, weapons and air supremacy. Firepower is not enough to win a war, you would need to win hearts and minds too to ensure total victory. That said, they ended the war in the end via political means and compromise when an opportunity presented itself in the 2004 Tsunami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_Aceh

Wiki (masquerading as BBSEE)

 

[BBSEE]

Dear PAP

Unfortunately the heart of the conflict is not on the roads, where 60 ton MBTs and 30 ton IFVs can traverse and patrol in peace or on big towns.

Its in small little deserted villages with tracks dirt roads, where heavy vehicles would die underneath wear tear and terrain over long distances.



Locke

Hence the requirement for air mobility in A-Stan, though you must understand the ISAF is at the end of their logistical tail down there. They have limited numbers of helicopters for assault and utillities and the dust and conditions make maintainence quite a bitch.

 

[sleaguepunter]

seriously i have no idea how and when this afgan conflict will end. i believe in self determination, not rule by puppet from the north who was installed by the western power. until the whole country support one leader, the conflict will last forever.

anyway back to the bronco, did the BA change the engine plant or still the detroit diesel that ST had installed previously?

as an appointment holder, maybe you should suggest that the HQ coy aka S4 run more logistic excerise instead of just providing tonners and drivers to support the combat teams. As of now, i ony have one experience of being refuel in the field by the BV206 fuel browser and that was during active in kanchanaburi for atec.

u better get those assholes who like to play on sandtables that they better dun believe the troops are supermen who can do whatever they like. ie.. behaving like the baverian corporal in the battle of berlin, giving order to counterattack by non existant units.:oIo: Shifting units around on the sandtable very easy but is it possible troops on the ground to execute those orders.

lucky MRed when 32yo, now another 5 years before my name stuck off the reserve list. no more ippt, rt, standby. pity those chao keng reservists who have to for another atec with another NS battlion becasue of insufficient HK ICT. Of course they entitled to lhl's $3000 cpf money which i dun get, well u gain some and lose some, eventually even out.

 

[Leckmichamarsch]

Actually, I am not sure whether what u say is accurate or not. As far as i know, Bronco/Warthog supplied to UK was base model with no applique armour from Disenroth or anyone else. ....................................


Just becos you dun know, does not make what I asserted as inaccurate.

Bronco had Al Oxide tiles with honeycomb aramide & special TS glue which is only good for 762 rounds when it could have class I armour with SiC as frontline armour system. Diesenroth recommended and some donkey in STK agreed with that inferior class of armour from Al Oxide. Partly SiC was expensive and in short supply then.
Bronco is an all terrain troop carrier - no? Why should not our troops deserve best protection?

If warthogs were converted from some broncos, should the latter be of Al Oxide armour which is half fixed in Singapore and half in Bonn - Ingeniur Buero Diesenroth.

BTW I heard Diesenroth set up a company in Singpore........ anybody know if it is true or what it is for?

 

[vamjok]

Dear PAP

Unfortunately the heart of the conflict is not on the roads, where 60 ton MBTs and 30 ton IFVs can traverse and patrol in peace or on big towns.

Its in small little deserted villages with tracks dirt roads, where heavy vehicles would die underneath wear tear and terrain over long distances.



Locke

you sure about this a not, i had saw lots of clip on interviews with US soldiers with regards to IED in iraq. the taliban actually knows the route of the US soldier very well, and more than often they surprise the troops on the regular routes they took which include those in cities.

 

[sleaguepunter]

until i MRed, the bronco was never a troop carrier. It was use in the saf to haul supplies, POL, ambulance, command post etc etc...

So Bronco was never meant to be a troop carrier, that why i was surprised the BA use it as troop carrier.

 

[Papsmearer]

Actually, I am not sure whether what u say is accurate or not. As far as i know, Bronco/Warthog supplied to UK was base model with no applique armour from Disenroth or anyone else. ....................................


Just becos you dun know, does not make what I asserted as inaccurate.

Bronco had Al Oxide tiles with honeycomb aramide & special TS glue which is only good for 762 rounds when it could have class I armour with SiC as frontline armour system. Diesenroth recommended and some donkey in STK agreed with that inferior class of armour from Al Oxide. Partly SiC was expensive and in short supply then.
Bronco is an all terrain troop carrier - no? Why should not our troops deserve best protection?

If warthogs were converted from some broncos, should the latter be of Al Oxide armour which is half fixed in Singapore and half in Bonn - Ingeniur Buero Diesenroth.

BTW I heard Diesenroth set up a company in Singpore........ anybody know if it is true or what it is for?

Seriously, I don't know what u are getting your panties in a bunch for. When u post, u post like a school kid who doesn't know jack shit and just pull some stuff out of the air. As I have said in my post, which if you care to read carefully, would have told u that the Brits use Permali for the their applique armour, not IBD. It does not make sense as u claim for the Broncos/Warthog to be shipped from singapore with IBD armour on it, and than to have it removed and replace with Permali armour. Additionally, the Brits would never have spec IBD AMAP or Mexas in their UOR for the Warthog. St Kinetic has to pay IBD for every AMAP kit they install. Therefore, what u said HAS to be inaccurate.

Secondly, with regards to your issue over the level of protection of the Bronco i.e. silcion ceramics versus aluminum oxide, I don't work for ST nor IBD, and I am not intimiately familiar with these materials, many of which are proprietary classified. I do know that the standard adopted by every army in the world, including the SAF is not to determine the effectiveness of the armour based on whether its good for 762 rounds or not. I am guessing u mean 7.62mm, but on the overall level of protection vis a vis land mines, shrapnel, IEDs, etc. The standard is STANAG 4569. I believe the Bronco meets STANAG level 3 protection. U can protect a any vehicle better, but the question is whether the suspension and drivetrain can take it, and at what cost. If u make it so well armoured, and it becomes too slow and cannot climb or has a reduced payload, its no good either. Generally speaking, non front line support vehicles like the Broncos have a lower level of armour protection, that's just the way the world works. So, i don;t have the same issue that u have.

I believe IBD and ST Kinetic has a JV operation in singapore, as well as a joint R & D arrangement. Don't know the location though.

 

[Papsmearer]

seriously i have no idea how and when this afgan conflict will end. i believe in self determination, not rule by puppet from the north who was installed by the western power. until the whole country support one leader, the conflict will last forever.

anyway back to the bronco, did the BA change the engine plant or still the detroit diesel that ST had installed previously?

as an appointment holder, maybe you should suggest that the HQ coy aka S4 run more logistic excerise instead of just providing tonners and drivers to support the combat teams. As of now, i ony have one experience of being refuel in the field by the BV206 fuel browser and that was during active in kanchanaburi for atec.

u better get those assholes who like to play on sandtables that they better dun believe the troops are supermen who can do whatever they like. ie.. behaving like the baverian corporal in the battle of berlin, giving order to counterattack by non existant units.:oIo: Shifting units around on the sandtable very easy but is it possible troops on the ground to execute those orders.

lucky MRed when 32yo, now another 5 years before my name stuck off the reserve list. no more ippt, rt, standby. pity those chao keng reservists who have to for another atec with another NS battlion becasue of insufficient HK ICT. Of course they entitled to lhl's $3000 cpf money which i dun get, well u gain some and lose some, eventually even out.

No, the Brits did not change the power plant. Its too much trouble, as they would had to change the transmission, etc. The Detroit diesels are reliable and easy to maintain anyway. What they did was change the suspension and the driveline to accomodate the additional 2 tons of amour they installed on the Warthog. They also exploded 8 or 9 Warthog hulls to see the effect of the armour mods.

I think u must be 42 SAR. U are not going to get refueled by BV 206 fuel bowsers as long as u are in Area D. Overseas yes. It does not matter as u don;t do the refuelling anyway. Now, so many places for overseas armour training, u kenna kanchanaburi? Hot there, Ass luck. Well it could be worse, u could have gone to Rajasthan, India. One recent batch of armour came back, everyone complain lau sai like crazy over there. Must be the water or food, too dirty by singapore NS boys stomachs. LOL. ROC was good, Hukou got lots of places to run the tanks. And than R & R in Taipei, lots of girls.

Actually, I have many problems with the basic armour doctrine, not to mention all these scholar SAF Cols, BGs, etc. some of these guys are total idiots. I am not confident they are able to lead a toilet party much less a real battle. Till today, I do not know why there is no training for armour in urban warfare, or Tank infantry co-operation in build up areas. Training in Shoalwater and Hukou is only good for some CO to exercise his command and control over his entire unit in lots of space, otherwise tactically, it has no applications to what we need to do. Coastal hooks are also a waste of time.

No matter how you cut it, if we go to war, we will have to drive through small towns, big towns, urban areas, etc. We have to occupy ports, harbours, airports, city centres, communications hubs, etc. Even a small village can have 1 dozen anti tank teams hiding there. U drive thru a small town, u will get whacked and ambushed from rooftops, buildings, etc. The Israelis have not fought a wide open tank to tank battle for over 25 years. They are bringing their tanks into Beirut, west bank, Gaza. The uS are bringing their tanks into Baghdad, fallujah, etc. In WW2, the germans were experts in deploying their armour in towns, and also their anti tank teams, hence inflicting great losses every time the allies attacked an urban area. Why we don't train for this beats the hell out of me. Not to mention how u would deploy armour and AI in a HDB estate or in Woodlands, or something like that. The SAF has to face the probability that the enemy will come into our soil too. Anyway, I am just a small voice, what do I know. LOL.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear PAP and S

I think the issue has become a bit side tracked. The foreign policy op ed is quite interesting and informative.

Vis sa Vis winning the war especially a counter insurgency war. You have to go and patrol into every small village and town and not surrender the countryside to the Enemy.

The question is can you go into those villages and small towns with MBTs and or IFVs ?




Locke




//www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/11/24/tanks_but_no_tanks?page=0,0

 

[Papsmearer]

Dear PAP and S

I think the issue has become a bit side tracked. The foreign policy op ed is quite interesting and informative.

Vis sa Vis winning the war especially a counter insurgency war. You have to go and patrol into every small village and town and not surrender the countryside to the Enemy.

The question is can you go into those villages and small towns with MBTs and or IFVs ?




Locke




//www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/11/24/tanks_but_no_tanks?page=0,0

Locke, I already told u, u are a military genius. I will call all ISAF and US commanders in Astan to withdraw their tanks and AFV with immediate effect. I donch know why they don't see your obvious logic. Yes, they must conquer every small town and village and the countryside, just let the taliban have the cities and highways, ok?

 

[sleaguepunter]

No , i not from 42SAR. i from the battlion that only have farmers as CO, at least till the time i ORDed. I know Area D is too small for a IFV/APC/MBT/AMX13 to run out of fuel but at least train for it lah. beri hard meh? (at least not for me, haha..)

While i only been to kanchanaburi (twice), i strongly believe the terrain and weather over there have many similarities with our potential area of conflict. The shoalwater is just for the senior officer to feel shiok leading a whole battlion / brigade, two up in formation. look good for saf advertisement but useless in tactical sense.

armour do have fibua training but only in infantry role which was kind of stupid. As for fighting in built up area, only the amx13 crew have experience in a sense as the armour simulator centre provide them training in them but only against enemy vehicle. That cannot be say for the AI or APC/IFV crew which dont even have.

by the way, when will the senior armour officers recongnise the fact that the bionix cannot do river crossing under fire? KNN. i almost drown during the nite crossing when the bionix almost flip in calm waters. in time of conflicts, i will go into the turret and shoot the 25mm brushmaster at the farker who order river crossing.:oIo: