The Ultimax & the Americans

[Papsmearer]

Yet we got lots of asses promoted there for achieving nuts..... n trying to sell Ultimax and Bionix to USA which is a stupid notion to start with................ imagine the huge sum of money spent on market with zero result but glorification to some who know how to exploit the system to gain promotions after promotions from VP to President n VP to CTO

I can't remember who it was, but i remembered that ST Eng. partner with a large US defence contractor to go after the US army contract. SO, the JV cost is split up. In any case, they have no choice. If they did not enter the Bionix in the US army competition, all their potential clients will think they have no confidence in their own product.

 

[Papsmearer]

The SAR 80 was designed and developed by Daniel Goh, a mining engineer who got zero experience with firearms other that text book knowledge///////////// scary??

I don't understand. First u say Daniel Goh led the Unicon marketing team. Than you say daniel goh is the designer and developer of the SAR 80. Wah, this guy must be a true talent to be expert on weapons development, marketing , and god knows what else. The generally accepted story is that CIS bought the patent for the SAR-80 from Sterling Armaments, and they in turn developed the SAR-80 based on their knowledge producing the AR-18 under license from Armalite. IN fact, a couple of Sterling engineers was send to singapore to set up the production, and develop the follow on variants. So, as far as i am concerned, I don't know who the fuck is Daniel Goh, nor do I care.

 

[Papsmearer]

How about the mortar bomb fuze AZDM 111 made under license from Diehl/Junghans???

I think he means an original designed weapon, or armament, not one made under license. The only one I can think of is the 75mm APFSDS round developed for the AMX-13. I don't think they sold too much of that, even though there are still users of the AMX-13 till today.

 

[Papsmearer]

Datz why SAF bought old Leopards which the German junked............... rather than have ST Kinetics fucks thing up again at huge cost. If Bionix was so great, a MBT would have followed.

I guarantee u 100% that these were not junked German Leos. The Leo 2 is still a world class MBT. The reason the Germans had so many surplus was that they build up a huge tank force to combat East German, Russian and Warsaw pact armour forces. After the cold war r
ended, all their armour was superflous to their needs, especially since they also absorbed a large number of DDR T-72s. In addition, the Bundeswehr also faced large defence cutbacks due to the cost of incorporating East Germany. SO, in the end, they mothballed a lot of their Leos 2. much to the benefit of countries liek Sweden, Greece, Canada and us.

 

[wikiphile]

I think he means an original designed weapon, or armament, not one made under license. The only one I can think of is the 75mm APFSDS round developed for the AMX-13. I don't think they sold too much of that, even though there are still users of the AMX-13 till today.

ahh yes like our Indonesian friends nearby, any excess 75mm can be dumped to them. Funny i always thought that the SM1 uses a 90mm gun but i have been corrected

 

[steffychun]

I thought we have some 90mm gun SM1s. And also the secret 105mm Centurions.

 

[scroobal]

It was the case for every weapon they did. The philosophy was to hire the original designer and their core team, pay them big bucks. The country was given the impression it was local work to give rise to nationalism and collective pride. It also helped to keep defence costs down as no local army commander is going to no to something that his own govt manufactures.

Bill Sullivan was given one mio bucks to design n develop the Ultimax; the 100 rd magazine was subcon to his buddy. Bill was part of the team which developed the A15 or M16. It was patented but it patent really was about laws of physics!

The marketting team was led by Daniel Goh of Unicorn and did not make much of a dent albeit lots of money was spent on its marketting blitzes//////// Some African countries bought handful but likely becos of kickbacks//

 

[Papsmearer]

I thought we have some 90mm gun SM1s. And also the secret 105mm Centurions.

u are confusing the AMX-13 with the AMX-10PAC. Also, if you talk about the secret tanks, SID will send someone to get you.

 

[steffychun]

it's not a secret if Tim Huxley wrote abt the tanks

 

[Papsmearer]

it's not a secret if Tim Huxley wrote abt the tanks

Oh yeah, heard from Tim lately? No right? The SID got him.

 

[Papsmearer]

ahh yes like our Indonesian friends nearby, any excess 75mm can be dumped to them. Funny i always thought that the SM1 uses a 90mm gun but i have been corrected

The French upgunned their AMX-13 with Giat 90mm smoothbore, but we did not even though in the end we operated more AMX-13s than the French did. 2 main reasons. The 75mm is developed from the German 75mm KwK 42 L70 on the WW2 Panther, and in my opinion, its the best gun under 100mm in the world. superior to the 90mm. It is High velocity, very accurate. Also, with the 90mm, the load is lessen by a few rounds. Not worth the trade off.

 

[karmabear]

Wow you guys sure sound like experts in armaments... I am just a lay person, only expert at firing my own handgun. However, if asked to choose equipment, I would look at what mercenaries like ex-blackwater contractors would use. That's on a personal basis.

Is this knowledge out of personal interest or actual professional work? Reason for asking is might as well spend time looking at the stockmarket?

 

[Hans168]

Are you sure or not? I thought it was Jim Sullivan, to be exact Leroy James Sullivan. I never heard of a Bill sullivan involved in the Ultimax.

Both are right!
It is Jim but his nick is also Bill...... he hired another gringo ... Wakefield for the 100 rd magazine.

 

[Hans168]

I guarantee u 100% that these were not junked German Leos. The Leo 2 is still a world class MBT. The reason the Germans had so many surplus was that they build up a huge tank force to combat East German, Russian and Warsaw pact armour forces. After the cold war r
ended, all their armour was superflous to their needs, especially since they also absorbed a large number of DDR T-72s. In addition, the Bundeswehr also faced large defence cutbacks due to the cost of incorporating East Germany. SO, in the end, they mothballed a lot of their Leos 2. much to the benefit of countries liek Sweden, Greece, Canada and us.

Did they get good prices for them? Nobody knows! Damn sure Diesenroth of IBD swiped tonnes of commission for helping brokered the deal and of course supplying amour upgrades to the Leo II. I recall ST saying these were made in 1970's........... so how can it be worldclass? STech made a lot of money from it too by replacing lots of the electronics & controls + armour nitty gritty - nobody look at the final bill, so it cud be close to if buying a real worldclass jewish MBT

 

[wikiphile]

Both are right!
It is Jim but his nick is also Bill...... he hired another gringo ... Wakefield for the 100 rd magazine.

The stupid 100 rd magazine has a high occurence of jamming

Far better off using 2 x 30 rounds magazine capped at 25 rounds clipped in jungle style

 

[Hans168]

I guarantee u 100% that these were not junked German Leos. The Leo 2 is still a world class MBT. The reason the Germans had so many surplus was that they build up a huge tank force to combat East German, Russian and Warsaw pact armour forces. After the cold war r
ended, all their armour was superflous to their needs, especially since they also absorbed a large number of DDR T-72s. In addition, the Bundeswehr also faced large defence cutbacks due to the cost of incorporating East Germany. SO, in the end, they mothballed a lot of their Leos 2. much to the benefit of countries liek Sweden, Greece, Canada and us.

Mothballed............... not junk meh?

 

[Hans168]

The stupid 100 rd magazine has a high occurence of jamming

Far better off using 2 x 30 rounds magazine capped at 25 rounds clipped in jungle style

It is a great challenge mechanically to come up with a problem free 100 rd mag........

 

[Papsmearer]

Both are right!
It is Jim but his nick is also Bill...... he hired another gringo ... Wakefield for the 100 rd magazine.

I don't know what's with all these angmo names and having to question people on it, Are you sure it was Wakefield? I thought it was Bob Waterfield. Bob Waterfield was Sullivan's design partner and Sullivan brought him over to CIS to supposedly design the 100 round drum mag. I always wondered about this, because in my opinion Sullivan was best know for designing the C-Mag 100 round drum mag for the M-16 family. Beta C-Mag is now the standard for M-16 family rifles that want to have a high capacity drum mag. Therefore, I venture to say that Sullivan was more capable of designing the 100 round mag than Waterfield. if that is the case, than why hire waterfield at all? I am sure Sullivan had a lot of input into the mag design and waterfield had some input into the Ultimax design. Also, why make the Ultimax 100 round mag proprietary. Now, only with the Mk4 versions and onwards, it can take a standard Beta C-mag drum. It should have started out using only the C-mag drum.

 

[Papsmearer]

It is a great challenge mechanically to come up with a problem free 100 rd mag........

In fact, Sullivan had already design a very reliable 100 rd mag, the C-Mag, now known in its modern version as the Beta C-Mag. I have no idea why he did not use the C-Mag and went in to design the proprietary Ultimax mag. Maybe he wanted to squeeze more money out of CIS by designing a mag that they did not need instead of using one that was already on the market.

 

[Papsmearer]

Mothballed............... not junk meh?

Mothballed and junk is not the same. I am surprise you do not know the difference. Junk is when you just throw it outside and watch it rust and deteriorate in the weather conditions. Mothballed is when you prepare the vehicle for long term storage, usually in a controlled weather environment like a desert or indoors or underground storage. You also drain all the fluids, and seal the parts of the vehicles to prevent pest and animals form nesting inside. People are assigned to maintain the vehicles in this state and check on the conditions. Mothballed weaponry is an important part of many countries' armies.