The Ultimax & the Americans

[Papsmearer]

I wished i had a chance to fire it and see for myself what this weapon could really do but not possible. Last i heard, some stocks was sold to some rebels in Africa

U don't want to shoot that piece of crap.

 

[wikiphile]

U don't want to shoot that piece of crap.

And the other mysterious rifle - SR88 died a natural death too

 

[sleaguepunter]

but lets just say its really cockup. they require the PC to act as the VC for the command vehicle. the PC is also expected to lead the infantry platoon that the v200 is carrying when contacting ground enemies. so whenever there is contact, the PC got to remove the CVC helmet that he is wearing and change to a normal helmet and lead his infantry platoon. i had lots of this change helmet parade practice.

er... Armour Infantry PC also face the same problem. At least the V200 easy for the PC to dismount. can easily drop down to troop compartment then out of vehicle. But it not so for the bionix VC/PC. the bionix turret cage is design for ppl who less than 60kg and 1.6m. any person more than that will have a hard time squeezing thru the cage door. my pc often climb to the top of the bionix, wear his sbo (impossible to wear the sbo inside the turret), change to kalvar helmet b4 jumping down the trooper compartment hatch to get down to ground level.

we often see u guys in Area D, a bit envy your guys as your section strength beri big compare to us in armour. i ever seen 8 guys dismounting from the V200 while the typical strength of a armour infantry section is about 4-5guys inclusive of sect comd. My reservist platoon only have 2 sections as we had only 9 riflemen.

 

[Papsmearer]

And the other mysterious rifle - SR88 died a natural death too

It was a better piece of crap, but u don't want to shoot it either.

 

[sleaguepunter]

any idea on why SAF didnt mount the TOW on SAF IFVs/APCs/AFVs? no way the 25mm brushmaster can penetrate the armour of the PT91. Another area that baffled me was the lack of AA weapons assign to us armour battlion. We dont were have the obselete hand held missile for defend against aircraft. The doctrine was to engage with the 25mm, what a joke, how to aim at plane when the firing platform is not stable?

 

[Windsor]

any idea on why SAF didnt mount the TOW on SAF IFVs/APCs/AFVs? no way the 25mm brushmaster can penetrate the armour of the PT91. Another area that baffled me was the lack of AA weapons assign to us armour battlion. We dont were have the obselete hand held missile for defend against aircraft. The doctrine was to engage with the 25mm, what a joke, how to aim at plane when the firing platform is not stable?

The Oerlikon 35mm was a good weapon to have whether against ground enemies or low level air attack. Unfortunately the day they bought the entire AA System which comes with the Superfledermaus Radar, was the day it could be considered pretty obsolete. The original radar was using transistors which often fail in the field due to our wet climate.

 

[aurvandil]

All this weapons talk has got me wondering.

Has Singapore ever produced a good piece of military hardware which we were able to sell and earn a lot of $$$?

Or is the our secret military industry another one of those wannabe fantasies where the secret is not the killer hardware we build but how much we lose on it annually?

 

[wikiphile]

The Oerlikon 35mm was a good weapon to have whether against ground enemies or low level air attack. Unfortunately the day they bought the entire AA System which comes with the Superfledermaus Radar, was the day it could be considered pretty obsolete. The original radar was using transistors which often fail in the field due to our wet climate.

One of the dumbest things told to my friends in ADA operating the 35mm was that the effective range of it was about 3000m and then they point out that the missile fired from a helicopter or an aircraft is probably from 5000m. So when asked how would they mount an 'effective' defense with their 35mm, the instructor told them to suck it up and just fire at something they can see whether or not they can hit the target and pray they are 'lucky'! WTF?

 

[HTOLAS]

Singapore's air defence has several layers: the outermost which is dealt with by the interceptors and long range missiles; the medium which is dealt with by medium range missiles; and then when the above two fails, the innermost, with the likes of the Oerlikens. You should never think of the Oerlikens or its current equivalents as the only means of air defence - it really is almost a last resort, short of firing at the aircraft with your SAR21s.

One of the dumbest things told to my friends in ADA operating the 35mm was that the effective range of it was about 3000m and then they point out that the missile fired from a helicopter or an aircraft is probably from 5000m. So when asked how would they mount an 'effective' defense with their 35mm, the instructor told them to suck it up and just fire at something they can see whether or not they can hit the target and pray they are 'lucky'! WTF?

 

[Papsmearer]

any idea on why SAF didnt mount the TOW on SAF IFVs/APCs/AFVs? no way the 25mm brushmaster can penetrate the armour of the PT91. Another area that baffled me was the lack of AA weapons assign to us armour battlion. We dont were have the obselete hand held missile for defend against aircraft. The doctrine was to engage with the 25mm, what a joke, how to aim at plane when the firing platform is not stable?

Very few IFVs have a ATGW system attached to the vehicle, the Bradley being one of the few. The advantage of a TOW is the range. In Desert Storm, this long range kill ability is needed when you can shoot 3000m in the wide open against an enemy tank. In this region, engagement distances are rarely going to be that long. In their role, if they come up against an enemy tank, probably the engagement range is going to under 1000m, where by the infantry will handle it with handheld anti-tank or crew anti-tank systems. The 25mm with APDS round can kill a T-72 at short range. I believe during the Battle of 73 Easting, a BMP killed a T-72 with this round after repeatedly shooting it. Since the PT-91 is essentially a T-72, there might be a possibility.

 

[Windsor]

One of the dumbest things told to my friends in ADA operating the 35mm was that the effective range of it was about 3000m and then they point out that the missile fired from a helicopter or an aircraft is probably from 5000m. So when asked how would they mount an 'effective' defense with their 35mm, the instructor told them to suck it up and just fire at something they can see whether or not they can hit the target and pray they are 'lucky'! WTF?

The Superfledermaus FCS eith the Oerlilon 35 mm AA guns were meant for targets within 4000 metres range I believe, The radar will tracked and compute the future position of the aircraft based on it's flight pattern. The guns will fire at the future point of the aircraft position as it takes time for the rounds to reach that future point of impact at the same time the aircraft is there. The rounds will explode after a time and hopefully the shrapnel will hit the aircraft. The range was too short as the design was pretty old when Singapore bought the system. Against the newer aircraft it was not very effective.

At 550 rounds per minute in short bursts there is a good chance it may hit but that is not the point. The point is to distract the pilot in order he will not succeed in his mission as he is in a hurry to get away plus bombs exploding near the aircraft will cause the pilot to avoid the rounds and thus fail in his attempt.

But on ground and pin point targets the Oerlikon 35mm is very accurate at very long range.

 

[wuqi256]

Used the M16 and then after that the SAR-80 before, the best thing was, instructor said the latter was a daylight only rifle as it lacked night sights. When i proposed it could be easily solved with conversions to the sight, folks told me its so bad no one wants to improve on it(Beyond hope)

The only thing they did right was the 155mm SP arty, heard exported to quite a few countries.

 

[sleaguepunter]

In this region, engagement distances are rarely going to be that long. In their role, if they come up against an enemy tank, probably the engagement range is going to under 1000m, where by the infantry will handle it with handheld anti-tank or crew anti-tank systems. The 25mm with APDS round can kill a T-72 at short range. I believe during the Battle of 73 Easting, a BMP killed a T-72 with this round after repeatedly shooting it. Since the PT-91 is essentially a T-72, there might be a possibility.

i am, sorry was a bionix gunner. i not sure of current armour doctrine. In nsf days, it the 2 amx13 in front while APCs behind in support and provide infantry support. during reservist days, SAF change doctrine and become bionix probe in front while the amx13 cover from the back. If the armour tag team are to encounter oppostion armour on the fly, then the engagement distance will be less than 100 yard. But the chance of bionix burst into flame from a burst of PT91 12.7mm HMG is higher than the 25mm AP penetrating the reactive armour of the PT91. by the way, the way bionix operate is suppose to command high ground covering key axis, so having a TOW do made sense. SAF do operate the bionix like a tank in these scenerio where the IFV hide from view on the back slope while the VC hide in the forward slope. AMX tankees would understand what i meant as they operate in the same manner in the past. At a high ground, the engagement distance extend to 2klicks.

 

[wuqi256]

Hi Windsor, basically they were adopting an old shotgun tactic, which is to lead the target and fire at the point where it will arrive at the same time as the rounds would be, or at least in the close enough proximity. They should have gotten a Tungusta(Grison) or even ZSU-23-4 (Shilka) at that time.

 

[sleaguepunter]

Singapore's air defence has several layers: the outermost which is dealt with by the interceptors and long range missiles; the medium which is dealt with by medium range missiles; and then when the above two fails, the innermost, with the likes of the Oerlikens. You should never think of the Oerlikens or its current equivalents as the only means of air defence - it really is almost a last resort, short of firing at the aircraft with your SAR21s.

like u said, air defense. what about offensive campagin? i remember the outcome of the egyptian armour got smash by IDF aircraft once the armour left the safety of the SAM umbrella in the Yom Kippur War. So to not equip mechanzied forces with the basic Igla is criminally irresponible.

 

[Papsmearer]

i am, sorry was a bionix gunner. i not sure of current armour doctrine. In nsf days, it the 2 amx13 in front while APCs behind in support and provide infantry support. during reservist days, SAF change doctrine and become bionix probe in front while the amx13 cover from the back. If the armour tag team are to encounter oppostion armour on the fly, then the engagement distance will be less than 100 yard. But the chance of bionix burst into flame from a burst of PT91 12.7mm HMG is higher than the 25mm AP penetrating the reactive armour of the PT91. by the way, the way bionix operate is suppose to command high ground covering key axis, so having a TOW do made sense. SAF do operate the bionix like a tank in these scenerio where the IFV hide from view on the back slope while the VC hide in the forward slope. AMX tankees would understand what i meant as they operate in the same manner in the past. At a high ground, the engagement distance extend to 2klicks.

SAF armour doctrine changes all the time. It should to adjust to new tactics and new abilities. However, it must have some flexibility in specific combat situations. SAF does not have this. For example, the US Army armour tactics are more fluid. Their combat team compose of Bradleys who are forward and do the scouting, followed by M1s who are called in to do the damage once the enemy has been located. Therefore, they operate as 2 different units.However in situations where there isa high possibility of encountering enemy armour, they mix up M1s and Bradleys, and move to combat with this mixed team, which can engage whatever it spots. This flexibility is not build into the SAF, and in any case, scholar generals will notbe able to havethe combat sense to employ them like that.

IN the SAF case, neither the Bionis or AMX-13 are designed to go toe to toe with the PT-91. They cannot win if it happens. Statistically, they are more likely to encounter an APC/IFV like a Condor or KIFV or Adnan. These are equiped with 20mm calibre weapons and can be defeated by a Bionix or AMX. I think fear of PT-91 is overated. They will not allow Bionix and AMX to operate if there is no Leos or KPs nearby. By the way, all this command the high gorund stuff is nice theory. What the SAF does not tell u is that the enemy also wants the high ground, and since they are there first, probably we will have to fight and take to it from them. In this case, given your scenario, they will be engaging you from 2000m. Good luck to you. LOL.

 

[Papsmearer]

One of the dumbest things told to my friends in ADA operating the 35mm was that the effective range of it was about 3000m and then they point out that the missile fired from a helicopter or an aircraft is probably from 5000m. So when asked how would they mount an 'effective' defense with their 35mm, the instructor told them to suck it up and just fire at something they can see whether or not they can hit the target and pray they are 'lucky'! WTF?

Some one is blowing smoke up your friend's ass. I don't know of any ATGW fired from a helo that can hit at 5000m. Maybe a lucky shot. Mostly, the effective range is 3000m, maybe a little bit more in ideal circumstances. Therefore a helo is within the range of a 35mm Oerlikon system. Even if the rounds don't hit the helo, the theory is that it should destract the pilot and and weapons operator, and also make the pilot take evasive action, hence, making it harder for the WO to guide the missile to the target. As for aircraft, forget about it. The 35mm cannot track so fast, especially low flying fast jets.

 

[Windsor]

My last word on this subject is that our think tanks had no better idea than try and develop our own weapons industry when all we should have done was to purchase tried and tested ones already in the market. We had expertise from re-furbishing old aircraft like the A4s and re-engine them. We could do the same for other weapon systems as well and store most of them for use when needed.

The monies wasted could have gone to win the hearts and minds, the fierce loyalty to the country and pride in the nation. Weapons alone cannot win the war. With feckless and disillusioned soldiers, the nation will not be able to withstand any forms of attack and any defence will just be token defence before the country falls. Singapore needs a core of dedicated soldiers, professional ones rather than citizens soldiers. Citizen soldiers are well and good provided they see that it is worthwhile to defend and protect their country and families. Unless there are a majority of Singaporeans willing to lay their lives down, no way can the war be won. With the population of Singaporeans born and bred in this country ever decreasing and having more and more new citizens and PRs, I very much doubt we have what it takes to win any war. This is my humble opinion and any one can refute me and say otherwise, it is after all a free country,(maybe).

 

[Papsmearer]

All this weapons talk has got me wondering.

Has Singapore ever produced a good piece of military hardware which we were able to sell and earn a lot of $$$?

Or is the our secret military industry another one of those wannabe fantasies where the secret is not the killer hardware we build but how much we lose on it annually?

Well, hard to say, the Warthog was sold in large numbers to the UK, but it was an almost default winner. The 155mm lightweight arty piece is a good design, and the Indians ordered large numbers until it was revealed there were a lot of corruption involved in ST Eng bribing the keklengs. The Indians than canceled this contract. I hear the 40mm grenade launcher is good.

Whether they made money or not, hard to say. They sell a lot of weapons to rogue countries like Burma, African countries, croats, serbs, etc. Basically any country that has a UN arms embargo is a favourite sales centre for Singapore weapons. But lately, the Chinese have been selling to these markets too, and their stuff is dirt cheap. We could have equipped the entire SAF with AK-47s for a fraction of the cost of SAR-21/M16. The $10 billion plus annual defence budget is bloated beyond belief. Why buy 30 year old Lockheed P-3 Orion sub hunters for $200 million plus when your neighbour's subs can barely float out of the harbour?

 

[HTOLAS]

During an offensive, advancing forces would be supported / accompanied by:

• air cover provided by interceptors (F5s) and multi-role aircraft (F15 / 16);
• mobile SADA assets like iHawks (long range), Rapiers (medium) and AA guns (short);
• look-down radar (previously performed by the E2Cs)

In other words, the whole concept of layered air defence applies in all deliberate battles. Also, where it is possible, the SAF would have either destroyed enemy air assets or prevented them from taking off - hence the F15s and F16s, and Special Ops Forces.

like u said, air defense. what about offensive campagin? i remember the outcome of the egyptian armour got smash by IDF aircraft once the armour left the safety of the SAM umbrella in the Yom Kippur War. So to not equip mechanzied forces with the basic Igla is criminally irresponible.