The Chinese & Indian Myths

[scroobal]

In order to meet the demands of the Tokyo Olympics of 1964 and to handle its jammed transport system and its fast growing economy, the Japanese developed its famous Shinkansen known popularly as the the bullet train. It was an impressive outcome that many were not aware that the bullet train was linked to the Olympics.

We all saw the buildup to the Beijing Olympics but the words "Chinese" and 'innovation" were separated after gunpowder was invented. So the Chinese made up by execution and meeting targets. Transport again became the key and Mag lev trains began its run on the Chinese landscape and by 2012, it will have the fastest and most extensive network on Earth. Beijing Olympics was a success despite the Chinese penchant for undeclaring, over qualifying and fabricating which started with the "false" natives at the opening ceremony to the uncovering of mismatched birthdays of their most successful gymnast.

With massive drop from the Olympics to the Commonwealth Games scheduled to begin from 3rd Oct or 36 days away, much of the infrastructure are in doubt. I was in Delhi in late 2008 when they commenced work on their airport which typically is the showpiece of most countries as it is the gateway. I had my doubts and the world will see what India. The first sign of trouble was when the Queen decided not to turn up. Good luck.

What are your thoughts. My view is that they are going to make Viv B and the YOG a roaring success despite dog food, poisoned volunteers, ticket fiasco and bullied school kids.

 

[Ramseth]

My view is that they are going to make Viv B and the YOG a roaring success despite dog food, poisoned volunteers, ticket fiasco and bullied school kids.

They've just declared it a roaring success. So it shall be recorded as such.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

screwball the bastard racist pretending to be fair and objective.


Yeah shitland aka india aka the country in which you have a hard on is fucking up the commonwealth games. It's a fact. Shitland has bitten off more than it can chew.


Of course even the likes of you with your so-called mastery of the english language where you can put in some bombastic english word and structure your sentences to somehow imply that india's hosting of the commonwealth games is a success would have failed. After all calling shit by 50000 different names still makes it shit so obviously that doesn't make a difference.


Therefore of course a slimy fucking worthless bastard like you has to come up with something new.


Oh yes since it's impossible to label anything india has done as a success since it's a major failure you have decided to drag china into the same depths as india.


Well FYI the beijing olympics was a success. In fact when london was there to take over from it ppl actually felt ashamed showing that stupid red london bus after such a spectucular showing from china.


lastly POS don't ever ever fucking put india in the same cat as china cos china is obviously superior to india you lying sack of shit.


Here's the facts. China managed to host the last oylmpics successfully and gives a challenge for the next host to match. India cannot even host games on a smaller scale like the commonwealth games. This shows india is more fucked up compared to china. Period.

 

[longbow]

Unfair to equate lack of innovatation for Beijing Olympics due to no new transportation concept. They tried Maglev but it proved too costly.

Why not take a look at all of the most recent of the Olympics and point out any new innovations from those events. Sometimes you need the nexus of technology, cost and practical requirements.

I think the Chinese built a bunch of wonderful sporting avenues that can be used and enjoyed by its citizens for years to come. Its superb execution both in terms of the quality of the infrastructure as well as the organization of the games was impressive (you look at YOG organization and it is telling).

They were as good as any 1st world nation. Just take a look at the India Commonwealth - HUGE corruption, lousy quality control with local media doubting the safety of the structure and the money spent was crazy given the stature of the games (it is no Olympics), especially in view of the crumbling infrastructure.

As a 3rd world nation China should also keep an eye on cost. Maglev is too costly so they went the bullet train route. Beijing could have afforded a totally Maglev system for China by dictat from Beijing - they could afford it too. But they took a look and realized that it was not worth the cost. Anyway no country in the world has a running maglev service except for China.

China is now the largest operator and manufacturer of high speed trains. As a matter of fact, they have licensed their technology to GE for possible implementation of high speed rail in the USA. They are hoping to build such trains in the US and can offer to financing its constructions (thye have lots of US$ in their kitty).

India - what that country needs is 30 years of communism. Wipe out all that caste system nonsense, kick out the legacy tycoons, gurus, give equal rights to women, build a decent infrastructure (they are still running legacy British colonial transportation system). They need to break the lockhold that the tycoons and politicans have on the poorly education 70% of the population.

It is tough because Indian are born to face fate. Nothing you can do about fate - You are born a Dalit and can never marry that boy from a Brahmin family. NEVER It is fated. Likewise it is fated that you live in a slum, that you have no proper hygiene. It is all fated. Ok for the tycoons to command that power - because they are fated to be rich. Just like that boy was fated to be born into a high caste

Many years ago, a friend of mine was in the development business in China. When he visited the site, the bricklayer confronted him and asked him for more $$. His justification was that my friend is making too much of a profit. That worker then continued to list a breakown of the project cost, including land and "undertable" money. His calc was pretty damn good. Would not be surprised if he became a developer himself. So there is this believe that you can better your lot. The tens of thousands of small time businessmen are all trying to do that - better they lot. That power lay in their hands and is not fated.

Right now, all the Indian brains are sucked into US where their brains and give them a good life with no discrimination - why even think of going back and face that silly caste, northern/Southern nonsense.

Their rich spend their days in London, keeping their $ outside the country.

Just take a look at Beijing Olympics vs Commonwealth Games and the difference is telling.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

Unfair to equate lack of innovatation for Beijing Olympics due to no new transportation concept.

Hi i'm glad u see my pt. India has fucked up the commonwealth games. The CW games are smaller than the oylmpics but india still fucked it up.

Since there's no way to salavge it this fucking asshole TS decided to drag china into the picture. This is wrong since china's hosting of the last oylmpic games was a resounding success.


This is definitely wrong. Shitland aka india will fuck up the commonwealth games which is SMALLER than the oylmpic games.

China hosted the bigger games successfully. It's a fact and cannot be denied. No matter what political agenda any other country has china hosted it perfectly.


Ok racists and haters pls use something else okay. Don't make excuses.

 

[scroobal]

I am curious what innovation are you referring about. By the way they are using Maglev and they have most impressive rail build ever. Their infrastructure build is the most impressive. No issues about entrepreneurship and execution. It the lack of innovation and it well known habit of copying.

Unfair to equate lack of innovatation for Beijing Olympics due to no new transportation concept. They tried Maglev but it proved too costly.

Why not take a look at all of the most recent of the Olympics and point out any new innovations from those events. Sometimes you need the nexus of technology, cost and practical requirements.

 

[scroobal]

I agree about the communism bit. They are certainly going backwards.

India - what that country needs is 30 years of communism. Wipe out all that caste system nonsense, kick out the legacy tycoons, gurus, give equal rights to women, build a decent infrastructure (they are still running legacy British colonial transportation system). They need to break the lockhold that the tycoons and politicans have on the poorly education 70% of the population.

It is tough because Indian are born to face fate. Nothing you can do about fate - You are born a Dalit and can never marry that boy from a Brahmin family. NEVER It is fated. Likewise it is fated that you live in a slum, that you have no proper hygiene. It is all fated. Ok for the tycoons to command that power - because they are fated to be rich. Just like that boy was fated to be born into a high caste

Many years ago, a friend of mine was in the development business in China. When he visited the site, the bricklayer confronted him and asked him for more $$. His justification was that my friend is making too much of a profit. That worker then continued to list a breakown of the project cost, including land and "undertable" money. His calc was pretty damn good. Would not be surprised if he became a developer himself. So there is this believe that you can better your lot. The tens of thousands of small time businessmen are all trying to do that - better they lot. That power lay in their hands and is not fated.

Right now, all the Indian brains are sucked into US where their brains and give them a good life with no discrimination - why even think of going back and face that silly caste, northern/Southern nonsense.

Their rich spend their days in London, keeping their $ outside the country.

Just take a look at Beijing Olympics vs Commonwealth Games and the difference is telling.

 

[pfingo]

Her royal majesty, the Queen, has 1001 better and more significant things to do lah!

 

[zhihau]

What are your thoughts. My view is that they are going to make Viv B and the YOG a roaring success despite dog food, poisoned volunteers, ticket fiasco and bullied school kids.

to think about it, apart from fireworks, this YOG gives a brand new meaning to "we've got the money to burn..."

 

[RoyMcFarland]

screwball the bastard racist pretending to be fair and objective.


Yeah shitland aka india aka the country in which you have a hard on is fucking up the commonwealth games. It's a fact. Shitland has bitten off more than it can chew.


Of course even the likes of you with your so-called mastery of the english language where you can put in some bombastic english word and structure your sentences to somehow imply that india's hosting of the commonwealth games is a success would have failed. After all calling shit by 50000 different names still makes it shit so obviously that doesn't make a difference.


Therefore of course a slimy fucking worthless bastard like you has to come up with something new.


Oh yes since it's impossible to label anything india has done as a success since it's a major failure you have decided to drag china into the same depths as india.


Well FYI the beijing olympics was a success. In fact when london was there to take over from it ppl actually felt ashamed showing that stupid red london bus after such a spectucular showing from china.


lastly POS don't ever ever fucking put india in the same cat as china cos china is obviously superior to india you lying sack of shit.


Here's the facts. China managed to host the last Olympics successfully and gives a challenge for the next host to match. India cannot even host games on a smaller scale like the commonwealth games. This shows india is more fucked up compared to china. Period.

Yes, China hosted a very successful and impressive Olympic Games in 2008 and India's preparations for this year's Commonwealth Games look disastrous. Yes, China is at a stage of development far superior to India and this development is helping her with more foreign investments coming in that will propel it to further heights. They are a bigger country with a bigger population and in my opinion, India will never catch up.

But, we have to put certain issues in perspective. It is easier to get things done in China given the kind of government system that they have. And probably, India could do with some communist regime of its own. If the Chinese need to clear a place to build a stadium with its accompanying infrastructure, they just clear the place. No ifs and buts. If needed the army will be called in to force people to leave. Try that in India. Hundreds of opposition politicians, lawyers and human rights activists will descend down on that village before you start.

Both countries are trying to be more successful, just as we in Singapore are doing. Good luck to them.

You called Scrobal a racist... "shitland aka india", "it's impossible to label anything india has done as a success since it's a major failure" Wonder who's the racist here??

 

[kingrant]

Ever since Deng embraced capitalism in 1978, China has never looked back. Having said that, it was also Mad Mao's Cultural Revolution that exacerbated the hunger drive and sharpened the spurs in their hinds, having to make good those lost years in the last 2-3 decades. Farmers became landowners became industrial entrepreneurs, SOC secretaries and security police chiefs became billionaires via their connections, I wonder if Deng had not been exiled by Mao and had started earlier, whether the impact on China would still have been so great.

Not so with India. They also had a communist Marxist central planned economy but a political democracy and seemed unable to get their act together since 1990's when they decided to embrace capitalism after world Communism collapsed. This leads me to think that the only diff lies either in their political will, ethnic makeup, or their democracy, which of course makes perfect fodder for authoritarian regimes' (S'pore's) arguments that only with strongman rule that you can get GDP. Otoh, they also had a crippling caste system. So with India, success e.g. the Reliances, the Thakrals etc is seen only with their diaspora in their host countries' strong infrastructures and absence of the cultural baggages, but not inside India, where they cannot find the infrastructure they need, due to politicking, corruption, inefficiencies..

Indeed, India needs a dose of Communist repressive rule! Is that why more well to do Indian birds of passage are migrating to Singapore where it is more conducive to enrich themselves under the PAP regime for the short term future but retain roots to go back once India is more promising?

With massive drop from the Olympics to the Commonwealth Games scheduled to begin from 3rd Oct or 36 days away, much of the infrastructure are in doubt. I was in Delhi in late 2008 when they commenced work on their airport which typically is the showpiece of most countries as it is the gateway. I had my doubts and the world will see what India. The first sign of trouble was when the Queen decided not to turn up. Good luck.

As with all else, anything in S'pore is a success is only because the PAP calls it one, and not voters, or the population. Such a right comes from being given that mandate once every four years. All rights inclusive. Since when do Singaporeans get to say anything but the things the regime wants to hear?

What are your thoughts. My view is that they are going to make Viv B and the YOG a roaring success despite dog food, poisoned volunteers, ticket fiasco and bullied school kids.

 

[scroobal]

I do wonder what the Cabinet thought of YOG and I am waiting for the old man to make a remark as he likes to to do somewhere down the road as is his style.

to think about it, apart from fireworks, this YOG gives a brand new meaning to "we've got the money to burn..."

 

[scroobal]

Good points. Also the need for communism. The historian and travel writer William Dalrymple wrote a book and I think it is called Age of Kali where he addresses why democracy has failed India and the consequences of it. I sought out books in India when I could not reconcile a number of things and this book did it for me. Very similar to the points that you raised.

The other thing that I am still trying to reconcile is why the Chinese have such a penchant for copying and fabricating things with no concept of IP rights while their cousins, the Taiwanese, the Koreans and the Japanese have been deep in the belly of innovation. Something that does not add up. If you recall the failed Singapore initiative, the Suzhou project is a classic example. As soon as project was kicked off, they were building an identical business park across the river with the Suzhou blueprints. The Singaporeans quickly realised that but thought that they had the inside track when contracting with western companies for lease and services. The Chinese waited and undercut their prices. Deng refused to lift a figure citing that he had no authority over the provinces.

Yes, China is at a stage of development far superior to India and this development is helping her with more foreign investments coming in that will propel it to further heights. They are a bigger country with a bigger population and in my opinion, India will never catch up.

But, we have to put certain issues in perspective. It is easier to get things done in China given the kind of government system that they have. And probably, India could do with some communist regime of its own. If the Chinese need to clear a place to build a stadium with its accompanying infrastructure, they just clear the place. No ifs and buts.

 

[scroobal]

This is turning out to be a good discussion. Good points as well. My sense is that without Deng, it will be on the same route. Its in our blood to be entrepreneurial. Capitalism is our religion. Communism was needed to address rampant warlordism. The teochew catholic community of Mandai came over to Singapore to escape warlordism is a good example.

With warlordism eradicated and Mao gone, time to hit the road of business.

Everyone seems to agree that India needs a patch of time under communism to bring much needed law and order. In fact when they had the centrally planned marxism model economy, their GDP grew very well and there was a sound operating rythmn. They also had currency control.

I have seen their caste system first hand in their workplace. Its crazy.

I would recommend the William Dalrymple's book. In it he reveals that votes have been bought or the elections rigged that the intelligentsia which is tiny portion of the country have been pushed aside. People have decided that they have save their own bacon and have been ruthless in the way they conduct business. I recall a friend who went with a Govt trade mission and secured orders worth 96 containers of produce for export to India. As expected there would be cancellations and disputes. He was stunned that none of the 96 orders could be completed. And he got the orders from 3 different cities in India.

I always found India and the Philippines the hardest which are "champions" of democracy. I found Indonesia before and after Suharto still good with people happy to do business.

One thing I found is that the foreign based Indians actually want to return upon retirement while the Chinese are not keen to return unless they find the West stifling.

Farmers became landowners became industrial entrepreneurs, SOC secretaries and security police chiefs became billionaires via their connections, I wonder if Deng had not been exiled by Mao and had started earlier, whether the impact on China would still have been so great.

Not so with India. They also had a communist Marxist central planned economy but a political democracy and seemed unable to get their act together since 1990's when they decided to embrace capitalism after world Communism collapsed. This leads me to think that the only diff lies either in their political will, ethnic makeup, or their democracy, which of course makes perfect fodder for authoritarian regimes' (S'pore's) arguments that only with strongman rule that you can get GDP. Otoh, they also had a crippling caste system. So with India, success e.g. the Reliances, the Thakrals etc is seen only with their diaspora in their host countries' strong infrastructures and absence of the cultural baggages, but not inside India, where they cannot find the infrastructure they need, due to politicking, corruption, inefficiencies..

Indeed, India needs a dose of Communist repressive rule! Is that why more well to do Indian birds of passage are migrating to Singapore where it is more conducive to enrich themselves under the PAP regime for the short term future but retain roots to go back once India is more promising?




As with all else, anything in S'pore is a success is only because the PAP calls it one, and not voters, or the population. Such a right comes from being given that mandate once every four years. All rights inclusive. Since when do Singaporeans get to say anything but the things the regime wants to hear?

 

[kingrant]

Scro, mind elaborating this little aside? Too interesting to let it go unnoticed.

...The teochew catholic community of Mandai came over to Singapore to escape warlordism is a good example.

 

[fukyuman]

Therein lies the danger that will break Singapore apart when our immigration floodgates are open to them. Indians loves chaos. With chaos the rich exploits the poor and mafia becomes members of parliament.

 

[Ramseth]

Scro, mind elaborating this little aside? Too interesting to let it go unnoticed.

It's not a matter of Teochew or Mandai only.

The Teochews and Hakkas were all in Canton (Guangzhou). Outnumbered by Cantonese, they ran. The Canton and Hokkien (Fujian) ports nearby were shipping centres for willing coolies down SEA. So they went.

 

[Ash007]

I'll add something along the lines of Indian needs a Mao argument. I once met an Indian at a MRT station. Very casual meeting where he just asked me where the train is going. Mind you, this is sometimes in the early 1990s where the craze of this FT importation is still not happening. He mentioned that he admired Mao and emperor Ching. I asked why, since they are known to have made very bad decisions. He said, without them China won't have grown as rapidly as it can be compared to India. He mentioned that in China, to build a road, everything along the path would be bulldozed the next day. In India, you would see protest, riots, kick-backs, nothing would get done, too many red-tapes. The Indians, at least the smart ones, knows that democracy, human-rights is making it worst for them. At the end of the day, idealism, without growth in mentality makes it bad. I'm in China at the moment, I'm not in one of the tier 1 cities, but more a 2nd tier, growing city. It is amazing, that even in this city you can see the growth and the population. Everywhere, you see people selling, buying things. True, at times you felt like you are in a cowboy town, worst then in JB I must say. But you can just see where this city is going to grow. Rows and rows of streets. Not just one orchard road like shopping area but multiple streets that is like that.

 

[kingrant]

Truly Asia...the ethnic joke has always run this way -

Put two Mats together, they'll go to sleep; put two Chinks together, they'll start a business. Put two Injuns together, they'll fight and kill each other.

He mentioned that in China, to build a road, everything along the path would be bulldozed the next day. In India, you would see protest, riots, kick-backs, nothing would get done, too many red-tapes. The Indians, at least the smart ones, knows that democracy, human-rights is making it worst for them.

 

[kingrant]

I met up with a PRC chap who's been here for quite a while and who runs a private commercial school here. I popped him the same question. His answer was that the Cultural revolution had set back a whole generation, maybe two, in their advancement on the road to prosperity. Not only knowledge and education was lost, but morals and ethos went out the door -- children were turned into Red Guards to report on their parents, frens betray frens, neighbours ratted on neighbours, students humiliated teachers, all authority were questioned etc. So a whole gen lost their way and their values. Once the lid was lifted, the mad scramble for catch up will leave only the unscrupulous standing on their feet in the wake, and the conscientious trampled upon. Hence no batting of eyelids or missing that heartbeat to copy, to adulterate, to mix water with wine, plastic with milk etc. to get ahead. Sometimes, it's by sheer ignorance of what harm can be done, sometimes they could be things that have been done before legitimately e.g. adding bromides as preservatives, or bleach to make noodles whiter, only they added more and more without second thoughts to their harmful effects, like insecticides to vegetables. Then taking such excesses to other products until they stretch to unsafe limits.

The Japs, Taiwanese and the HKies have also had their heyday copying and reverse-engineering, in the beginning of their industrial history, often without the understanding and in-depth knowledge that came with research and market tests, before they gradually evolve into creating and innovating along the way. So it also wasnt overnight.

I had a soldering gun once, bought in HK. The handle melted and softened in my hand after soldring for an hour, because it was made of thermoplastic instead of the heat-resistant engineering thermosetting type. The geometry and dimensions they can copy but not the material type which they couldnt see or measure, except from prior knowledge. Other examples of HK cheapo copycat hairdriers, electric irons, TV cabinets, abounded, and I don't know how many house fires they have been responsible for.

The other thing that I am still trying to reconcile is why the Chinese have such a penchant for copying and fabricating things with no concept of IP rights while their cousins, the Taiwanese, the Koreans and the Japanese have been deep in the belly of innovation.