Tamil rule in South East Asia. A short history.

[Nice-Gook]

Mongolians. Very evil n barbaric lot

this is steretyping Adek, just as you would not want chinks to steretypy you as a m&d mah!...let me tell you this ,people are people everywhere ...a truth i discovered through my travels to godforsaken places....yes,i had been to Afgan during Mujahideen time and Iran during Ayothullah the first ....people there were charming and showered me with kindness and very intellectual too ...especially ,the Iranians aka Persians ...a very very hospitable lot

 

[Nice-Gook]

malay old culture is indian culture heritage. malay new culture is from arab. in a nutshell, malay do not have any culture of their own except goreng pisang.

it's talk like this that gets you people thrown out from malaysian politics...so what if they borrowed your culture ...are you not borrowing western culture as of now ? look at the mirror and tell me how much of your culture your are wearing?..if you are specy, is spectacles your culture? ..the shirt or whatever you are wearing your culture ...does the barber cuts or even don't cut your hair according to your culture ?..the food your wify or mum cooks in a stove and fuel used of your culture ?..did you obtain your education in the manner and style of your culture?...we're you voting for your government as dictated by your culture ?

where is your culture now ?

 

[nightsafari]

Chink 'mainland' is a vague term. A country's territorial size changes over time, defined either by its territorial conquests or defeats.

In the northwest of chinkland, there is a corridor of land called the Hexi Corridor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexi_Corridor

It's a narrow strip of land hospitable for inhabitants and travellers, with desserts and mountains on either side. The ancient chinks expanded along this corridor during the Tang Dynasty and took over much of the Tarim Basin, Xinjiang during the 8th century AD. After losing the Battle of Talas to the arabs, the Tang lost Xinjiang. The Tangs subsequently defeated the Arabs who continued to invade Tang chink territory. A reconquista of the Tarim was planned, but never happened because of the massive uprising sparked off by the turkic An Lushan.

The Ming chink dynasty did conquer manchuria and regions of inner mongolia, only to lose control of them in the late 16th century ownwards, when the Qing jurchen became strong. During the chink dynasty, much of the xinjiang and tibet were conquered by chink troops and chink generals. Much of these were overlooked because the emperor was manchu, not pure chink.



Chink general Yue Zhongqi conquered Tibet with 3000 men. General Nian Gengyao conquered Qinghai for the Qing. By the early 1700s, the Qing's famous 8-banner manchu army was obsolete and out of shape as a fighting force. Most of the Qing's heavy fighting would be borned by a single banner, the ethnic chink Green banner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_expedition_to_Tibet_(1720)

General Zuo Zongtang, founder of General Tso's chicken, squashed a moslem ugyhur rebellion in Xinjiang in the late 1800s and had the moslem rebel leader's corpse burnt in public and his surviving sons castrated. Ottoman officers found stirring trouble in Xinjiang were also tortured to death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_reconquest_of_Xinjiang

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqub_Beg

my original point is still there though. Anything that was not contiguous, Chinese did not bother gaining control of. They did follow that NW corridor during the Tang dynasty, but that seems to have been the maximum extent. So how then would you explain more than a 1000 years of Empire with perhaps only marginal shifting of borders? Your NW corridor being the greatest deviation from general borders?

I find the lack of outward progression in an Empire to be atypical. The only way that makes sense to me is a lack of desire.

 

[nightsafari]

you have raised several issues but cannot discuss them all of it now ..so I shall stick to the question of colour of the skin...having a white skin alone was not enough for any sort of superiority ...otherwise how to explain china and India's past glory when whites were roaming the street naked ?

how then would you explain your very own example of the British ruling over a much larger Indian population?

Administrative ability does not explain why the great mass of Indians are willing to be subservient to the English, although it explains the relative efficiency of keeping the empire organized.

and please don't ask any so called expert for any knowledge..each will want to indoctrinate you with his or her version...it's up to us to search and for our own mind

I will take what you say as a compliment. This is my own take on the events.

 

[nightsafari]

islam became what it is because of its founder and founding members.

If moslems deviate from their religion, all they needed to do to return to their religion was to mimic the actions and thoughts of their founder and founding members. It is more than just wearing a goatee and wearing arab clothes.

Boko haram, isis, taliban, salafists, wahabis, m&d islamist supremacists, shia theocracy, all follow the quran and hadith as closely as they can to bring about 'true islam'. Their actions are consistent with the actions of muhammad and his founding members. They all would be very offended if you told them that they are not following islam.

who are Middle Easterners...

 

[nightsafari]

The mongols gave moslems a taste of the mass slaughter that moslems have been dishing out to the hindus and buddhists for a thousand years from 700+ AD to 1700+ AD.

The mongols are only deemed cruel and evil by moslems simply because the mongols were not moslems and they were burning mosques instead of churches and temples. Moslem conquerors who slaughtered lots of hindus and buddhists, and burned down their temples and universities are deemed as heroes and martyrs of islam.

it is true, mongols were not the only mass slaughterers. There were lots in history, probably enough for multiple books let alone 1 thread. In the Muslim world, the Ottomans were quite probably the worst. Except that there seems to be a greater love for Mongolians in this forum.

 

[whoami]

this is steretyping Adek, just as you would not want chinks to steretypy you as a m&d mah!...let me tell you this ,people are people everywhere ...a truth i discovered through my travels to godforsaken places....yes,i had been to Afgan during Mujahideen time and Iran during Ayothullah the first ....people there were charming and showered me with kindness and very intellectual too ...especially ,the Iranians aka Persians ...a very very hospitable lot

Actually i am referring to the conquest of Genghis Khan, the slaughtering of innocents woman and children. They even pulled out organs fm the victims! Very barbaric as recorded by historians.

 

[Nice-Gook]

how then would you explain your very own example of the British ruling over a much larger Indian population?

Administrative ability does not explain why the great mass of Indians are willing to be subservient to the English, although it explains the relative efficiency of keeping the empire organized.


I will take what you say as a compliment. This is my own take on the events.

perhaps in essence your are talking about the caste system so prevalent in an Indian psyche that you relate to higher premium for a whiter skin?...i must admit I am yet to fathom this caste thingy but here is my take

we would have thought a yellow skin is a desired lot in India, certainly not ...in fact a yellow skin is very much more discriminated than a blacker skin
Watch "India's north-easterners complain of racism" on YouTube

again the question of whiter skinned Brahmins too being discriminated ...Indra Gandhi was the PM of India and so was her father and her son too...most importantly she was a Brahmin and yet
Watch "From Indira to Kovind, VIPs barred from entering Jagannath Temple" on YouTube

 

[Hypocrite-The]

will politely and humbly disagree with you on 1 point.

We see through modern/different eyes the value of trade routes and strategic conquest. Back in those days, China didn't really value trade. I believe it was if you want Chinese stuff, lai, if not get lost. Again, I point to Japan and Korea. Don't value trade at all.

English adminstration back in those days was 1st class, but China was also good. Back when the Mongolians took over, they had to resort to using Chinese and imported Persian administrators. Didn't trust the Chinese so they brought in Persian, but Persians cannot manage the whole empire had to resort back to Chinese. This is of course my reading of history, it may or may not be what actually happened.

English walked into India, but because of Indian being super-racist since back then, straightaway see white skin, high technology, amazing organisation, they worship as gods. It's literally in written in Hinduism about gods, castes and skin colour. I've actually been looking for a Hindu scholar because I've been trying to find the exact story I read years ago. Let me know if you know one. No need to fire a shot. Impression can win everything... at least at first. Until Indians get bored of seeing it, then they rose up.

US can't win Vietnam or Iraq. In today's world, nobody wants foreigners and white skin no longer so special as to command so much attention. But biggest thing is they were not wanted in those countries in the 1st place. I don't think in 2020 anybody wants Americans to occupy them, but of course I may be wrong.

Thank you for discussing.

me too agree with your points almost entirely...except the desire part ,...simply put how can a startegic choking points like the malay archipelago be of non desirable even if it's just rocks and rocks ? even today the modern china realises this since almost a lot of its
rade has to pass through the malay archipelago..of course ,the other alternative route was the inland silk route but much much less desirable

even the western colonists did not colonise for desire sake but for strategic sake ,to monopolize the spice trade

having said that brings us to the ability ..China and India did not demonstrate their ability as the western colonists did ..and most importantly to administer all these colonies sitting in their homes with just a few men at ground zero ..
this is where the British had done remarkably well ..
their bureaucracy and administrative skills were unmatched even today.... where they entered India with only 800men and conqured the entire land too ..today's US with all their mighty weapons and education cannot even hold a country like Vietnam or Iraq ...but the British held almost all the world

Just my 2 cents. Ah tiong land history up to the Ming dynasty was about consolidating n uniting the Han Chinese 1st. Tiongs like to talk about Qin Shi Huang uniting the various states to form China. And subsequent dynasties were about keeping foreigners out. The Song dynasty was till this date acheived a highest standard of living as said by many scholars. Technology was also at its apex however they had to defend against the Jin n later Mongols. Even when it was just the southern song dynasty they did remarkably well. The subsequent yuen dynasty did try n conquer nip land but failed. At that time most of the military were ah tiongs n not Mongols. So the navy was basically ah tiong. Than Ming dynasty came in n the Ming voyages came into play. The voyages were stopped due to invasions from the Mongols again n resources used to build the Great wall. Also ah tiong attitudes on being the centre of the world. When the Manchus came into play. They expended to the ah tiong land of today n there were no threats by Mongols etc or overland invasions etc. However the foreign powers than came to play n the navy became a focus. And the worse thing is the European navies sail ships etc copied many inventions n innovations from the Ming treasure fleet like mast n sail n compartmentalization n bulk heads etc. Maybe even gun powder.

Contrast that to the European powers. Their land borders like the Portuguese n Spain were relatively secure. N during the Portuguese exploration the Europeans were concerned about defeating Muslim invaders. They all had a common enemy. The poms being an island had less fear of being invaded by land n needed a strong navy etc. They saw trade bringing them riches n the Europeans were after spice which was the gold of today. So they expended to get this resource and along the way got more stuff like tea rubber n oil. Also got Napoleonic wars etc but it was let's say not that common. Unlike wat the Chinese face. N the Europeans fought their wars overseas. The world was their battleground. No fighting in my back yard.

So all In all China saw no need for trade n had to contend with barbaric invasions. Europe had to contend with Muslim invasion n later when the borders were fixed n end of UK civil war they concentrated on the seas to get their resources. Both China n Europe face a different set of problems n dealt with it differently. I personally don't think it was possible for the Ming dynasty to hold overseas territory like Malacca etc even if it wanted too. Oh I forgot to mention internal fighting in ah tiong land itself. There were alot of internal revolts which require a land army to suppress. Europe had less of such problems. Just my rant.

 

[nightsafari]

perhaps in essence your are talking about the caste system so prevalent in an Indian psyche that you relate to higher premium for a whiter skin?...i must admit I am yet to fathom this caste thingy but here is my take

yes. that's exactly it. It is very much a part of Hinduism this caste thingy. Actually some people may skewer me for saying this, but do you remember talking about Persians and biryani? It is not officially acknowledged, but it is my belief that this caste system was put in place by the conquering Persians. It is now so entrenched within their religion and culture and way of life. For the record, I dislike the caste system.

we would have thought a yellow skin is a desired lot in India, certainly not ...in fact a yellow skin is very much more discriminated than a blacker skin
Watch "India's north-easterners complain of racism" on YouTube

haha! that video is true. In this day and age, everyone has become suspicious of everyone else. We are no longer 200-300 years ago. Especially neighbours hate each other the most. OTOH, my personal experience with Indians still tells me that on one on one basis, I still get preferential treatment. Unless of course someone from China pissed them off for some reason. Maybe Xi and his NE India border incursions... I once visited someplace with lots of Indians with my white friend. people stop and stare. literally.

again the question of whiter skinned Brahmins too being discriminated ...Indra Gandhi was the PM of India and so was her father and her son too...most importantly she was a Brahmin and yet
Watch "From Indira to Kovind, VIPs barred from entering Jagannath Temple" on YouTube

thanks for sharing the video. discrimination creates more discrimination. reverse racism after being mistreated. How some people get upset after angmohs receive special treatment then go out to tekan them back. Or closer to our own neighbours, how some Indians and Malays strike back at Chinese after being mistreated. By and large though, counter-reactions are the exception rather than the rule. Jaganath temple has a history of being the target of foreign invaders. One of the Persians who ruled over India demanded that particular temple to be shut or demolished. I think they still pissed off to this day.

 

[nightsafari]

Just my 2 cents. Ah tiong land history up to the Ming dynasty was about consolidating n uniting the Han Chinese 1st. Tiongs like to talk about Qin Shi Huang uniting the various states to form China. And subsequent dynasties were about keeping foreigners out. The Song dynasty was till this date acheived a highest standard of living as said by many scholars. Technology was also at its apex however they had to defend against the Jin n later Mongols. Even when it was just the southern song dynasty they did remarkably well.

thks for sharing your opinion. What you say goes further to prove my point. Everyone outside the middle kingdom is a barbarian. That's why they were focused on keeping them out. Why in the hell would you go to barbarian lands for? have to point out that yuan is mongolian. The expedition that is in the bottom of some bay in Japan was full of Mongols not tiongs. Although I will say that the distinction in northern China between tiongs and mongols is not sharp anymore. After all, Beijing is a Mongolian town.

Than Ming dynasty came in n the Ming voyages came into play. The voyages were stopped due to invasions from the Mongols again n resources used to build the Great wall. Also ah tiong attitudes on being the centre of the world. When the Manchus came into play. They expended to the ah tiong land of today n there were no threats by Mongols etc or overland invasions etc. However the foreign powers than came to play n the navy became a focus. And the worse thing is the European navies sail ships etc copied many inventions n innovations from the Ming treasure fleet like mast n sail n compartmentalization n bulk heads etc. Maybe even gun powder.

After the Mongolian invasion, China had little time left for itself as you say. The Europeans and their rivalry came onto China's doorstep. The gun powder definitely came from China, but the compartmentalized bulk heads they copied later.

Contrast that to the European powers. Their land borders like the Portuguese n Spain were relatively secure. N during the Portuguese exploration the Europeans were concerned about defeating Muslim invaders. They all had a common enemy. The poms being an island had less fear of being invaded by land n needed a strong navy etc. They saw trade bringing them riches n the Europeans were after spice which was the gold of today. So they expended to get this resource and along the way got more stuff like tea rubber n oil. Also got Napoleonic wars etc but it was let's say not that common. Unlike wat the Chinese face. N the Europeans fought their wars overseas. The world was their battleground. No fighting in my back yard.

So all In all China saw no need for trade n had to contend with barbaric invasions. Europe had to contend with Muslim invasion n later when the borders were fixed n end of UK civil war they concentrated on the seas to get their resources. Both China n Europe face a different set of problems n dealt with it differently. I personally don't think it was possible for the Ming dynasty to hold overseas territory like Malacca etc even if it wanted too. Oh I forgot to mention internal fighting in ah tiong land itself. There were alot of internal revolts which require a land army to suppress. Europe had less of such problems. Just my rant.

I have a simpler version of what you say. Both Europe and China had foreign barbarian invaders. But europeans were competing with each other unlike China which assumed they were #1 and the rest of the world is full of smelly barbarians. Europeans did everything they could to gain a competitive advantage over other Europeans. They went to angkat the smelly barbarians for land and resources so that they could beat other Europeans.

 

[nightsafari]

agree with you mostly, and sorry to contradict you on this :

The introduction of cotton during late Ming period help push the chinese further north as the cotton clothing offer more protection against winter.

Cotton is quite hopeless against winter. The Chinese push further north I believe is due to links created by the Mongols and centralizing China on their Mongolian town -- Beijing.

 

[Nice-Gook]

yes. that's exactly it. It is very much a part of Hinduism this caste thingy. Actually some people may skewer me for saying this, but do you remember talking about Persians and biryani? It is my belief that this caste system was put in place by the conquering Persians. It is now so entrenched within their religion and culture and way of life. For the record, I dislike the caste system.



haha! that video is true. In this day and age, everyone has become suspicious of everyone else. We are no longer 200-300 years ago. Especially neighbours hate each other the most. OTOH, my personal experience with Indians still tells me that on one on one basis, I still get preferential treatment. Unless of course someone from China pissed them off for some reason. Maybe Xi and his NE India border incursions... I once visited someplace with lots of Indians with my white friend. people stop and stare. literally.


thanks for sharing the video. discrimination creates more discrimination. reverse racism after being mistreated. How some people get upset after angmohs receive special treatment then go out to tekan them back. Or closer to our own neighbours, how some Indians and Malays strike back at Chinese after being mistreated. By and large though, counter-reactions are the exception rather than the rule. Jaganath temple has a history of being the target of foreign invaders. One of the Persians who ruled over India demanded that particular temple to be shut or demolished. I think they still pissed off to this day.

woh! we have an enlightened one here like you ...glad to meet you ,sir ..yup ,i am exactly on the same page as you that without casteism there is no Hinduism and both are not natives to India but invaders from Persia

having said that Hinduism is never accepted by a large number of people in India...the very word Hindu is purely a nomenclature to describe all religions in India...why do i say that because in Hinduism there are generally good and evil forces or gods who constantly fight each other...so the path should absolutely be clear right ? not ,certainly not ..there are people who worship the conqueror and there are people who worship the vanquished ...you see ,i am very selectively avoiding who is good and who is bad ...because people who worship see the better side of the one they pray too.

that exactly how casteism is also practised in India...for example ,a Brahmin is defined as a person of higher learning with a disciplined life who should not a acquire wealth or hold a position of power ...sounds quite confucionist right ?...but the question of birth right is not exactly defined but practiced

now to the question of chinese and Indians relationship ...it was on a best of footing for centuries ...in fact china only recognised India in the west as a civilized people and many ancient travellers such as Faxian and others travelled to India on a learning mission

but it was the 1962 Sino Indo war that spoilt this entire frienship ..Mao thought India should be taught a lesson for harbouring the Dalai Lama and India thought China was backstabbing a friend who gave up India's seat in the UN security council for China ...

 

[nightsafari]

malay old culture is indian culture heritage. malay new culture is from arab. in a nutshell, malay do not have any culture of their own except goreng pisang.

it's talk like this that gets you people thrown out from malaysian politics...so what if they borrowed your culture ...are you not borrowing western culture as of now ? look at the mirror and tell me how much of your culture your are wearing?..if you are specy, is spectacles your culture? ..the shirt or whatever you are wearing your culture ...does the barber cuts or even don't cut your hair according to your culture ?..the food your wify or mum cooks in a stove and fuel used of your culture ?..did you obtain your education in the manner and style of your culture?...we're you voting for your government as dictated by your culture ?

where is your culture now ?

perhaps the original message a bit too abrupt, but what I believe duluxe was saying that old Malay cultured heavily influenced by India and that it is now heavily influenced by Arabs through religion which I feel is quite accurate. Scholars in the Malay language also point out to the fact that only 6 words in Malay are original, the rest being borrowed from some other language. Even bumiputra is indian. It was a shock to me when I could pronounce some things in Portuguese because of Malay knowledge.

Of course no culture except goreng pisang a bit harsh la...

 

[nightsafari]

woh! we have an enlightened one here like you ...glad to meet you ,sir ..yup ,i am exactly on the same page as you that without casteism there is no Hinduism and both are not natives to India but invaders from Persia

I thank you and humbly accept your praise, although I personally am not sure I deserve it. but what drives me is how lack of knowledge or misinformation leads people to more suffering. I get very disturbed when I see people suffering for poor reasons. Castes are a good example, but wrong beliefs can also lead people that way. That is my motivation.

having said that Hinduism is never accepted by a large number of people in India...the very word Hindu is purely a nomenclature to describe all religions in India...why do i say that because in Hinduism there are generally good and evil forces or gods who constantly fight each other...so the path should absolutely be clear right ? not ,certainly not ..there are people who worship to conqueror and there are people who worship the vanquished ...you see ,i am very selectively avoiding who is good and who under is bad ...because people who worship see the better side of the one they pray too.

haha. what you say is why I see the hand of the Persians in it's creation. Bravo that you know about how some take one side and some take the other. Devas and Asuras.

that exactly how casteism is also practised in India...for example ,a Brahmin is defined as a person of higher learning with a disciplined life who should not a quiet wealth or hold a position of power ...sounds quite confucionist right ?...but the question of birth right is not exactly defined but practiced

funny you mention brahmin. Every brahmin I've ever met has been a hypocritical snob and treats everyone else like dirt. The ones I've met also believe they can get away with it because of how they were born. So in theory it sounds good, but my experience has made me wary of hearing "supposed to be" or other opinions. I tend to rely on my own opinions partly because of this and partly because I am learning disabled.

now to the question of chinese and Indians relationship ...it was on a best footing for centuries ...in fact china only recognised India in the west as a civilized people and many ancient travellers such as Faxian and others travelled to India on a learning mission

but it was the 1962 Sino Indo war that spoilt this entire frienship ..Mao thought India should be taught a lesson for harbouring the Dalai Mama and India thought was backstabbing a friend who gave up India's seat in the UN security council for China ...

back to the commies again.... They have a lot to answer for. I expect them to burn in hell. Funny how Hitler is a demon, but Mao is worshipped. India gave up seat for China? I didn't know that. Thank you for the info.

 

[Nice-Gook]

I thank you and humbly accept your praise, although I personally am not sure I deserve it. but what drives me is how lack of knowledge or misinformation leads people to more suffering. I get very disturbed when I see people suffering for poor reasons. Castes are a good example, but wrong beliefs can also lead people that way. That is my motivation.


haha. what you say is why I see the hand of the Persians in it's creation. Bravo that you know about how some take one side and some take the other. Devas and Asuras.


funny you mention brahmin. Every brahmin I've ever met has been a hypocritical snob and treats everyone else like dirt. The ones I've met also believe they can get away with it because of how they were born. So in theory it sounds good, but my experience has made me wary of hearing "supposed to be" or other opinions. I tend to rely on my own opinions partly because of this and partly because I am learning disabled.


back to the commies again.... They have a lot to answer for. I expect them to burn in hell. Funny how Hitler is a demon, but Mao is worshipped. India gave up seat for China? I didn't know that. Thank you for the info.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/anal...u-s-mistake/story-VhXC2ltVtmrtC7v3Q15aaO.html

 

[nightsafari]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/anal...u-s-mistake/story-VhXC2ltVtmrtC7v3Q15aaO.html

thank you for the info.

 

[syed putra]

If the chinese control the malaya, confim first world nation but might face alot of racial riot so in the end, islam always create havoc!

Yes. End up like bangkok where malay girls dance half naked on stage and become prostitutes.

 

[syed putra]

The mongols gave moslems a taste of the mass slaughter that moslems have been dishing out to the hindus and buddhists for a thousand years from 700+ AD to 1700+ AD.

The mongols are only deemed cruel and evil by moslems simply because the mongols were not moslems and they were burning mosques instead of churches and temples. Moslem conquerors who slaughtered lots of hindus and buddhists, and burned down their temples and universities are deemed as heroes and martyrs of islam.

Yes but Mongols eventually became Muslims. In Europe, they are known as tatars.
There is a 1000 year old mosque in Baltic region build by tatars. Up to st petersburg they went. And in Ukraine they are there too.apart from Russia.

 

[sleaguepunter]

now to the question of chinese and Indians relationship ...it was on a best of footing for centuries ...in fact china only recognised India in the west as a civilized people and many ancient travellers such as Faxian and others travelled to India on a learning mission

but it was the 1962 Sino Indo war that spoilt this entire frienship ..Mao thought India should be taught a lesson for harbouring the Dalai Lama and India thought China was backstabbing a friend who gave up India's seat in the UN security council for China ...

paiseh, but in 1962 wasn't it was Republic of China in United Nations instead of People Republic of China?

maybe more likely India recognized PRC as the legit country instead of ROC in 1949 yet still kenna whacked in 1962 so felt betrayed?