Salary Review -egg on everyone's faces

[scroobal]

Parliament passed the proposed recommendation but I suspect that everyone who touched this ended up in a worse position than they started with, with no exception.

1. PM shackled the committee with a remit to peg the study to the private sector.

2. Gerard Ee like it or not reneged on his promise to deliver a different model.

3. The Committe vindicated the original premise for the renumeration model as articulated so well by Singapore High Commisioner to Malaysia, Ong Keng Yong

4. The Opposition parties lost the plot and ended up closing the door on a subject of great interest to voters.

5. The voters did not seem to get what they wanted - a proper review and a proper debate.

A lost opportunity. I cannot remember another instance where everyone got it wrong. PM, Gerard Ee and the committee lost whatever credibility they had.

 

[TracyTan866]

Parliament passed the proposed recommendation but I suspect that everyone who touched this ended up in a worse position than they started with, with no exception. 1. PM shackled the committee with a remit to peg the study to the private sector. 2. Gerard Ee like it or not reneged on his promise to deliver a different model.3. The Committe vindicated the original premise for the renumeration model as articulated so well by Singapore High Commisioner to Malaysia, Ong Keng Yong 4. The Opposition parties lost the plot and ended up closing the door on a subject of great interest to voters. 5. The voters did not seem to get what they wanted - a proper review and a proper debate. A lost opportunity. I cannot remember another instance where everyone got it wrong.

All these will return to haunt the pap at the next GE...As LHL said, these are not the last words. The pap can bulldoze its way through in Parliament, but if it didnt win the peoples' hearts, the issue is not settled.

It's actually very foolish for the pap to end it this way

 

[Nice-Gook]

4. The Opposition parties lost the plot and ended up closing the door on a subject of great interest to voters.

Ahhh,ooooh errrrm; cough cough !...opposition parties ?you mean just that party--Workers Party aka Wayang Party?

May I ask why are you sugar coating just this aspect?

When SDP fella,Gomez wrote even so much as a suggestion you dug deep down to his father's shenanigans ,if at all ever committed,even before you were born to tarnish him.But now carefully so selectively choosing your words so carefully to veil the biggest blunder WP ever committed ; as if other opposition parties are privy to WP boo boos.

What is your agenda?

 

[scroobal]

I agree. It made of fool of the PM. He won't be able to apologise and get away again.

All these will return to haunt the pap at the next GE...As LHL said, these are not the last words. The pap can bulldoze its way through in Parliament, but if it didnt win the peoples' hearts, the issue is not settled.It's actually very foolish for the pap to end it this way

 

[scroobal]

Thomas Gomez should have thought things thru before keeping half the money belonging to 6 pregnant women who did not have the luxury of schooling and therefore could not read English. Thomas Gomez should have thought things thru before taking union funds and giving it to his friends for business investment that did not benefit the union or its members.

All these came out in a formal inquiry chaired by a High Court Judge and led by a DPP. The documenst are available for public scrutiny. Cheating the poor and the ignorant is a far worse crime and if I had my way, I would have hanged the whole family. Disgraceful cheating ignorant pregnant women of their due retrenchment benefits.

Ironical that you preaching Sam about Justice but condoning the deeds of a scoundrel and a cheat. And the son did the same thing by lying about submitting his form only to be caught by the CCTV. The fruit does not fall far from the tree.

Ahhh,ooooh errrrm; cough cough !...opposition parties ?you mean just that party--Workers Party aka Wayang Party?May I ask why are you sugar coating just this aspect?When SDP fella,Gomez wrote even so much as a suggestion you dug deep down to his father's shenanigans ,if at all ever committed,even before you were born to tarnish him.But now carefully so selectively choosing your words so carefully to veil the biggest blunder WP ever committed ; as if other opposition parties are privy to WP boo boos.What is your agenda?

 

[Nice-Gook]

The documenst are available for public scrutiny.

Oh yes,Gomez father may be a SOB.But how does that explain you clubbing all other opposition parties as a party to the biggest blunder WP committed this week on ministerial salaries?

Are you creating a smoke screen here to shield WP; by dragging all other political opposition parties into the same shit hole which only WP wallowed?

 

[kingrant]

Pretty well sums things up.

But to be fair, it was only the WP in there who could have kept the foot stuck in the door. The rest of the Opp parties - SDP, SPP had their own formulae which could have kept things going but they had no platform. Don't hear anything from RP, NSP except GMS.

Parliament passed the proposed recommendation but I suspect that everyone who touched this ended up in a worse position than they started with, with no exception.

1. PM shackled the committee with a remit to peg the study to the private sector.

2. Gerard Ee like it or not reneged on his promise to deliver a different model.

3. The Committe vindicated the original premise for the renumeration model as articulated so well by Singapore High Commisioner to Malaysia, Ong Keng Yong

4. The Opposition parties lost the plot and ended up closing the door on a subject of great interest to voters.

5. The voters did not seem to get what they wanted - a proper review and a proper debate.

A lost opportunity. I cannot remember another instance where everyone got it wrong. PM, Gerard Ee and the committee lost whatever credibility they had.

 

[Simbian]

I thought the SDP formula had promise, because it was pegged to multiples of several statistical measure of the pay of Singaporeans (median and mean if I remember correctly) meaning that the ministers would have a built in incentive to ensure their policies would take into account the whole spectrum of society and hopefully that their policies would be more balanced. Ironically, while such a measure would be the best for the average Singaporean, they wouldn't vote for it. Just like the Americans, who think that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

As for the Worker's Party, other than CSM who touched on the absurdity that you need to come up with a discount factor to reduce the pay in the first place, they seemed to be reluctant to confront the political question.

Of course, no one had the courage to point out the 100 tonne white elephant in the room, which is that it is not Singapore which needs high pay to attract ministers, but it is the PAP - devoid of public service ethos, etc - which uses high pay to attract people to enter the toxic political cauldron where its branding has been shot to hell.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

Sadly I have to agree with you. The PAP is playing the cards pre GE2011 and the opposition has not managed to capitalize fully in their shortcomings. Hence, the lost opportunity.

WP has been drowned on the technical details and they failed to market their alternative proposals in a manner that is both easy to understand as well as easy to defend. The moment I saw the UK model been touted as the basis for comparison, I was immediately suspicious who in WP was behind it. But never mind, it has been a good attempt.

The PAP has been dishonest once again, painted the WP as having lost an argument and bought over. They capitalized on WP's failure to market and differentiate.

Parliament passed the proposed recommendation but I suspect that everyone who touched this ended up in a worse position than they started with, with no exception.

1. PM shackled the committee with a remit to peg the study to the private sector.

2. Gerard Ee like it or not reneged on his promise to deliver a different model.

3. The Committe vindicated the original premise for the renumeration model as articulated so well by Singapore High Commisioner to Malaysia, Ong Keng Yong

4. The Opposition parties lost the plot and ended up closing the door on a subject of great interest to voters.

5. The voters did not seem to get what they wanted - a proper review and a proper debate.

A lost opportunity. I cannot remember another instance where everyone got it wrong. PM, Gerard Ee and the committee lost whatever credibility they had.

 

[Windsor]

Oh yes,Gomez father may be a SOB.But how does that explain you clubbing all other opposition parties as a party to the biggest blunder WP committed this week on ministerial salaries?

Are you creating a smoke screen here to shield WP; by dragging all other political opposition parties into the same shit hole which only WP wallowed?

The problem with all the opposition parties other than WP is that they did not have a platform to present their views. So it is left with only WP which performed badly in representing the views of Singaporeans. WP it appears has not consulted the opposition voters nor the other opposition parties for their views but bulldozed their own proposal after having completed their brain-storming session among themselves. Correct me on this if I am wrong.

Did WP approached any other opposition parties for their views, or has any opposition parties approached WP? Did any opposition party used the independent media like Youtube to present their alternative proposal? SDP had used this platform many a time to have their say on matters they think is important to Singapore, but I have not heard this about the ministerial pay. If they had then I stand corrected.

This is the saddest part of the opposition groupings I surmised from discussions here in SBF, before and after the concluded GE and PE. Views are so disparate and extreme, such that all opposing voices cannot unite to fight against a single party like the PAP, who has unity. A very good reason why the opposition do not deserve to win and only disaster awaits all of Singapore if the PAP had fallen. Then these opposition parties were they ever to gain the right to rule Singapore will simply destroy us from the word go.

If Wp had done their part, i,e, to represent the views of all opposition, not only WP's alternative proposal, but one made up from all opposing voices, then I will say they did their best in the interest of all Singaporeans. As it stands, WP failed badly and have done us a disservice.

 

[mojito]

4. The Opposition parties lost the plot and ended up closing the door on a subject of great interest to voters.

5. The voters did not seem to get what they wanted - a proper review and a proper debate.

The common man is perceived to be unable to handle the rigors of the analytical approach, therefore an "expert panel" was formed to make a recommendation to legitimize a preferred pay formula. I agree that the Opposition parties were disappointing in their criticisms. Why top 1000? Why not a multiple from a broader spectrum of citizens?

WP's weakness in my opinion is the unwillingness to lack gumption to adopt a coherent ideological view due to their fear of alienating some of their less informed voters. If one makes a stand, surely there will be people who disagree with you. WP's stance as I can see is "whatever PAP says" plus a little more to the left which is an awful way to impress more informed voters who have clear ideological stance on issues.

For the WP, political posturing to give the appearance of being balanced is more important than personal belief it seems. Please do not contest in my ward. The PAP is fine as it is if i'm conservative. If I prefer bold liberal ideas motioned in parliament, I would give my vote to the SDP. Classic business school example of being "stuck-in-the-middle" and pleasing no one.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

I believe that other than not being more aggressive there was little other else that WP did wrong. Their formula which was based on the pay of the civil service was correct in my view. They would be made to look truly ridiculous if their proposal made it a rule of thumb that non-elected civil servants earned more than their elected colleagues. WP should have explained this more succinctly and also added that our civil service is indeed world class and that rocking the boat was not an ideal situation. Rather, what was at stake were the policies initiated by the governing political party and the various motivating factors behind these policies. GG not knowing what MX9 was was a sad reflection of his quality. The other WP members should have taken to task the PAP members that continued to insist that the WP proposal was similar or even higher than the PAP's. This is a total fabrication as the bonus scheme proposed by WP was many times less than that espoused by the PAP. Lastly, a simple study looking at the relevant statistics over the last 5 years would have given a clearer indication of the ease with which the PAP's bonuses could be attained.

 

[Nice-Gook]

The problem with all the opposition parties other than WP is that they did not have a platform to present their views.

So we are thus paying for our mistake of not voting more oppositions into the parliament.At least we would have the pleasure of watching which opposition goes all out to please us better by pitting themselves against the PAP.That,my friend ,would be quite a delight.Better than watching Malaysia Cup.

So it is left with only WP which performed badly in representing the views of Singaporeans. WP it appears has not consulted the opposition voters nor the other opposition parties for their views but bulldozed their own proposal after having completed their brain-storming session among themselves. Correct me on this if I am wrong.

Opposition parties are not in the business of consulting each other.That goes against the very grain of them as not the other party.In fact each would love to expose other failing ideologically or failing against the common enemy -PAP.

But you raised a very interesting option,about consulting their very voters.Very refreshing and quite unique.If WP had followed your advise my heart would have been won by the WP.Because that in essence is the very foundation of democracy.

Did WP approached any other opposition parties for their views, or has any opposition parties approached WP?

A non sequitur

Did any opposition party used the independent media like Youtube to present their alternative proposal? SDP had used this platform many a time to have their say on matters they think is important to Singapore, but I have not heard this about the ministerial pay. If they had then I stand corrected.

Not only SDP but almost every opposition party had made their stand on the issue of ministerial pay .

This is the saddest part of the opposition groupings I surmised from discussions here in SBF, before and after the concluded GE and PE. Views are so disparate and extreme, such that all opposing voices cannot unite to fight against a single party like the PAP, who has unity. A very good reason why the opposition do not deserve to win and only disaster awaits all of Singapore if the PAP had fallen. Then these opposition parties were they ever to gain the right to rule Singapore will simply destroy us from the word go.

Don't despair.Out of the ashes a phoenix always arises.It is PAP that had created this illusion that they are born to rule and that political leaders must be groomed for succession.People who buys this crap vote for PAP.....Because 10 yrs ago you would have never recognized Obama as a presidential material.Even LKY,typically being himself,laughed at the notion that a black can be the president of the most powerful nation on earth.Even today nobody knows who shall be the next Democrat or Republican presidential candidate.Neither we knew a Chen Show Mah or Tan Jee Say ever existed for politics.

If Wp had done their part, i,e, to represent the views of all opposition, not only WP's alternative proposal, but one made up from all opposing voices, then I will say they did their best in the interest of all Singaporeans. As it stands, WP failed badly and have done us a disservice

.


WP need not represent all and every sundries views.In fact they don't even need to offer an alternative proposal.Their position in the parliament is very comfortable.Because it's PAP that is proposing.Hence the onus and the burden is heavy on PAP to prove .All WP has to do is riddle PAP with questions after questions.Making a fool of the PAP proposal.And to think WP had 3 trained lawyers.A greater advantage than PAP.But they screwed it up big time.

Hence,my speculation is that WP acted willfully and deliberately.By deceit.Because,LTK and Sylvia Lim never spoke.An unpardonable act of malice.By all account it seems WP indeed 'kelong'

 

[scroobal]

I should have been clearer - opposition in parliament. And events in Parliament. What has this got to do with the Gomez in the first place.

Oh yes,Gomez father may be a SOB.But how does that explain you clubbing all other opposition parties as a party to the biggest blunder WP committed this week on ministerial salaries?Are you creating a smoke screen here to shield WP; by dragging all other political opposition parties into the same shit hole which only WP wallowed?

 

[Fook Seng]

I just wonder if an opposition member put up the proposal of an extremely low salary package as proposed by some opposition party in Parliament, what sort of performance would it be under the scrutiny of Parliament? It is one thing to play to the gallery but another thing to withstand the scrutiny of Parliament. Would he have all the answers to all the questioning and come out in one piece?

 

[mojito]

I believe that other than not being more aggressive there was little other else that WP did wrong. Their formula which was based on the pay of the civil service was correct in my view.

I feel that the PAP bonus scheme made sure major economic well-being indicators are covered, but I'm unsure about whether these indicators are set too low or whether Ministers could potentially "trade-off" certain indicators. For instance, we know a liberal immigration policy would likely increase nominal (and perhaps real) GDP. When unemployment is already high, would the Singov worsen it by throwing its doors wider?

In fact I wonder if this was the old, unpublished benchmark used previously but now made public.

There is also the problem of unintended consequences. Would the Cabinet blow up the fiscal budget to solve unemployment and pump GDP by expanding the bureaucracy aggressively via government spending?

While the use of indicators is a nice way to manage businesses that are largely predictable, the use of management indicators, in my humble opinion, is a bad idea for manage a dynamic entity like a startup. A small and open economy like Singapore should not be managed mechanically amidst global uncertainty.

I argue for ministerial base salary to be a simple and transparent, benchmark to a multiple of median income. Bonus is solely discretionary based on the PM, but disclosures fully made on the quantum. Essentially it would have been the same formula as before, but the PM would be politically accountable for not have the semblance of legitimacy it now has in commissioning an arm's length committee in proposing the formula. The way things are going, the PM would have made more drastic cuts in line with comparable politicians globally than what is proposed currently.

I am undecided about whether politicians need to be paid more than his peers in the civil service, or whether civil service salaries at the highest levels are excessive compared to bureaucracies elsewhere. I shall reserve my views to myself for now.

 

[scroobal]

This is one of the most important point and the primary reason why this is an issue that ingrates the man in the street. They are unlikely to begrudge the likes of Ng, Shanmugam and company earning their millions in a competitive environment like the private sector.

Its fair to say that PAP created an environment where service in political office in Singapore does not draw quality like its does in every single one of those 1st world countries as well as rest of the world. Its PAP that has to answer why this is so. They created a sterile environment and they are being mercernary about it.

Has it come to the stage where we have throw millions to bring people in. The PE is another institution where you can't even get a decent contest for decades because no one of quality is keen.

The only reason why PE2011 was so keen contested was that it became an extension of GE2011 amd everyone was keen to carry the fight over as GE 2011 was still fresh.

Of course, no one had the courage to point out the 100 tonne white elephant in the room, which is that it is not Singapore which needs high pay to attract ministers, but it is the PAP - devoid of public service ethos, etc - which uses high pay to attract people to enter the toxic political cauldron where its branding has been shot to hell.

 

[mojito]

5. The voters did not seem to get what they wanted - a proper review and a proper debate.

A lost opportunity. I cannot remember another instance where everyone got it wrong. PM, Gerard Ee and the committee lost whatever credibility they had.

Sorry for the double post. I would like to add that it is fortunate that we can still take the discussion offline (from parliament) here on this internet forum. Let the powers that be hear what us peasants have to say about their antics.

 

[freedalas]

This is one of the most important point and the primary reason why this is an issue that ingrates the man in the street. They are unlikely to begrudge the likes of Ng, Shanmugam and company earning their millions in a competitive environment like the private sector.

Its fair to say that PAP created an environment where service in political office in Singapore does not draw quality like its does in every single one of those 1st world countries as well as rest of the world. Its PAP that has to answer why this is so. They created a sterile environment and they are being mercernary about it.

Has it come to the stage where we have throw millions to bring people in. The PE is another institution where you can't even get a decent contest for decades because no one of quality is keen.

The only reason why PE2011 was so keen contested was that it became an extension of GE2011 amd everyone was keen to carry the fight over as GE 2011 was still fresh.

Actually if u speak to the man in the street, they are not against the principle behind PAP's of paying top dollars for top talent. They also do not really follow all the details of the formulae and salary components. What they really angry about is that despite paying top dollars we are not getting top dollars performance from the ministers and more importantly to them is that the likes of Lim Swee Say, Lui Tuck Yew, Teo Ser Luck are not worth that kind of pay. Lee Kuan Yew that the best way for people to appreciate paying top dollars for top talent is to give them a dose of mediocre govt. To the people we are already having more than a doze of mediocre govt. If the govt is truly performing well and the cabinet ministers and MPs are truly top dollar material, the public would have just let it be even if milllions are paid.

 

[scroobal]

I hope the Opposition parties (in parliament) take the cue that the politics of accommodation is not safe or sound in the vipers pit. They should follow the Westminister Model of being the backstop, the resident and recognised critic of the government as well as to challenge every position, every premise of a proposed policy first before moving on to putting across their view or an alternative view.

For some reason, they assumed the Committee is neutral and it output therefore has to be neutral. The committee was appointed by the Govt of the day, something that seems to have been lost by us all. Remuneration values can be reached in many ways. There was no need to work around a similar model.

In the private sector, you would be turfed out as the marketing manager if you sold ice lollies using the similar packaging to your rivals. Where is the desire to be original, visionary and impactful.

The PAP has been dishonest once again, painted the WP as having lost an argument and bought over. They capitalized on WP's failure to market and differentiate.